take a look at this a 1908 ford s model on ebay it is unrestored #140216777671 it is susposed to have 120 thousand miles on it looks good to me Ken Hudik casual ts

Missing a lot of expensive items like the coil box, carburetor, top, headlights.........

Link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140216777671&fromM akeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:us

Didn't the N-R-S Fords have fore-and-aft elliptical rear springs?

http://www.ritzsite.net/FORD_1/01_eford.htm
I hope this works.

I believe that same car was sold on eBay within the past year or two. I think it was listed by the Ford dealer mentioned in the current eBay listing. I also believe that it was fodder for discussion on one or both Model T Forums at that time.

Erik Jonson
Minneapolis, MN

I believe that same car was sold on eBay within the past year or two. I think it was listed by the Ford dealer mentioned in the current eBay listing. I also believe that it was fodder for discussion on one or both Model T Forums at that time.

Erik Johnson
Minneapolis, MN

P.S. I don't understand why people call 1950s paint-brush restorations "original and unrestored." That car has been restored (or at least molested) and has a lot of "Mickey Mouse" going on - ex: its rear fenders which are actually front fenders from a Model T Ford.

Additionally, newspaper articles written 50 years after the fact is not necessarily proof that the car has over 120,000 miles. I don't think a Model S could have taken that kind of beating, especially the aluminum transmission cradle/frame.

Erik Johnson
Minneapolis, MN

No "S" expert here, but this looks a bit cobbled together to me. Check out the rearend...looks like 12-15 housing on the left side with 15-19 housing on the right. Rear fenders must have been a hit back in 08 since these look so much like the front fenders of 1915 (note 3 rivet brace mount). Did the "S" have splash aprons? If it did, these aren't likely them. Don't know what that body is, and not that it's not attactive, just not likely original, since the "S" had a buckboard dash. Neat car but I think this advertisment may be a tad bit misleading.
Regards,
Scott Rosenthal

I wonder how many of the guys who pick apart this "cobbled" together "S" secretely wish they had it in their garage as we speak...I know I do.

1. It probably was a 1908 Ford Model S Roadster. And yes, the 1908 Model S Roadster did have the splash aprons, mother-in-law seat, and a metal rounded cowl with a painted wooden dash board. See the member's photo section of the 1903-1909 Early Ford Registry site at: http://www.earlyfordregistry.com/ or the Ritz site posted above had a couple of photos of a 1908 Model S Roadster also.

2. It could have easily gone 100,000 miles. It only takes someone who is willing to continue to maintain it (or just about any car) and it will go forever. In this case the documentation was the "reimbursements from the Postal Service for gasoline." Could it be off some -- sure. But it clearly is NOT a low mileage car. Yes, parts will need to be replaced over time. And depending on the road conditions, they would have replaced the transmission frame and/or welded it/ reinforced it when - not if but when -- it developed cracks if it drove that many miles on back roads. As already pointed out a previous owner apparently replaced the NRS rear axle and springs with a Model T rear axle and spring. That probably means they altered the frame some to get all that to fit.

3. Gilbert -- you are correct that the rear spring layout on the 1906-1908 Model N, R, S, & S-roadster was full elliptical on both sides of the rear axle. Of note, the correct front spring on the NRS & S Roadster (except the very very earliest Ns) was the same as the Model T taper-leaf springs. You can see the correct rear spring lay out on the Model N Ford parked next to it that shows up in some of the pictures.

4. Scott -- you are correct that the Ford Model N, R, & S Runabouts did have the buckboard/straight up and down wood dash. But the 1908 Model S Roadster came with the curved metal cowl over the rounded wooden painted dash. The computer I'm on, has a wide screen so things are a little distorted on this screen. But in general it looks like someone did a "fix up" a while back. If they did it in 1918 or so -- they did good. Upgrading to the Model T rear axle was a good idea along with the tapered rear axle shafts and Model T rear wheels. But if they did it back in 1950s or 1960s -- it probably wasn't the best move to make. The entire car would need to be checked -- but the body looks a little different than what I expected. It could be as simple as the wide screen distorting things. But I suspect the rear section may have been removed to make room for a "mail carrier" box -- keeping with the news paper article. And just like the Model Ts, a cut off was easy to make from an NRS & S roadster also. I would want to check and see if the car may have originally been a 1907 Model S or Model R that had the mother-in-law seat added and the metal cowl fitted. It could also be an S-Roadster that has had a hard life.

5. Yes, some expensive parts are missing as Royce shared. But depending on the condition of the other parts (what I could see from the pictures indicates it probably has an originally style NRS engine, 1908 McCord Force Feed oiler (correct for the S and S Roadster of 1908), the correct NRS steering column, NRS front seat area, correct front hubs (but I think those are 30 x 3 1/2 tires -- so they may have changed out the orignal 30 x 3 Model S Roadster wheel rims to 30 x 3 1/2 or they may have put the 30 x 3 1/2 tire on the 30 x 3 rim (that's hard to do -- but if you are determined.....). Or it may be the correct 30 x 3 tire. Between my eyesight, this screen, and the angle the photos were shot -- it clearly has one piece spindles -- but I cannot see well enough to say it is the NRS front axles and spindles, an early T front axle and spindles, or a good look alike. Same for the transmission -- the small pieces of the transmission frame that I can see -- look like an NRS transmission. But a nice shot with the front floor boards removed would clear that up quickly. And of course if the engine & transmission are in good shape, or good rebuildable shape that is better than if they are damaged beyond repair for some reason. From the photos -- you don't know if crankshaft is broke or as Trent discovered on his N engine when he rebuilt it -- someone had put a counter balanced crank in his N. No it wasn't original -- but Trent was very glad to discover it was there.

6. So what does all that mean? If you are looking for an inexpensive Ford to make a speedster from -- this is not the car. If you are looking for a 1906-1908 Model NRS or S Roadster -- I would recommend check it out. You will learn a lot if you can inspect it and research it a little. It may be in a condition and sell for a price that makes it a good or acceptable value. But it alos may not be the type of NRS that you are looking for. If you want an original to represent the type and want to leave it as found -- I would recommend you wait for a better example to become available. If you want and NRS-S Roadster to restore -- it could be a good start -- if the parts are rebuildable and the price is reasonable. Also if you already know where a nice NRS rear axle and springs are located....they could come in handy. By the way -- you can modify the Model T Rear Axle to look very similar to the NRS (except for the drive shaft area). See Lee Roy's replica on the Early Ford Registry Site "member's photo" section -- it is all Model T Parts -- but looks very similar.

7. Sam, I agree with you -- you can never have too many old Fords.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

I have no interest in this vehicle one way or the other but come on guys, let's be realistic in what we are talking about. Some say this car is not correct and the eBay listing is mis-leading but what does it matter?

When someone looks at a typical 'T' at a MTFCA or MTFCI meet they can find all kinds of uncorrect items on those cars too. You know what I am talking about, ...Distributors in lieu of Coils, modern Carbs., replacement heads, alternators in place of generators, starters on pre-1919 cars, incorrect paint colors or upholstery material or design, or incorrect type of wheels and/or tires, YET we all have been guilty to tell someone our cars are original, --or they have been restored as a "Driver". So how is this car really any different? One needs to also take into account this car was "restored" over 80+ years ago back when the level a car was "restored" was totally different than what we call it today.

I posted some pictures below that show to me that the car is closer to being a Model 'S' than what some of the "so called" Model T's that show up for a T tour are yet we don't criticize those cars!! So it begs the question, who buys this particular type of car, ...and what does it matter if this car sold a year or two ago on eBay?

From my experiences, the typical person that buys this type of car is someone who just wants to own something old to put in their collection. They generally are not buying this car to drive or because it is totally authentic since all they want is something that is a conversation piece. A piece of "art" if you will.

Now if someone who is a member of the Early Ford Registry is looking for something to restore, isn't it logoical that type person has already done his homework, --or is networking with an authority who has given him advice. So my question is, WHY do we always feel we need to "blast" a car that is listed on eBay picking it apart in front of our peers? Especially when it appears the "blasting" is unsolicited --and may be about as incorrect as parts of the vehicle we are criticizing!!

Again, I have nothing to do with the car, the auction, or the Seller but think maybe we shouldn't be so judgmental on someone else's pride & joy. Since these cars do not show up every day of the week in the classifieds, it appears to me this car is a great foundation for someone wanting to own a Model S --totally authentic or not.

Thanks Hap, you & Sam beat me to the punch when you made your entries and I concur with your thoughts. Maybe I should learn to type faster. [grin]

OK then, what is the vehicle sitting beside it (in the e-bay ad)? Any guesses and critique?

Brent/Hap:
I have critisized this proposed sale because the self proclaimed knowledgeable seller falsely represents the car as original and unrestored, of which it is definitely neither. Sources inform me that this seller is known to be a collector/re-seller who is likely aware of these facts, as per another very similar collectable seen per the same photos. Not saying this car doesn't have bonified investment potential, or that the car cannot be returned to original specs, only that it has been radically altered, and that contrary to this advertisment, the seller is ethically and legally bound to represent it as such.
Regards,
Scott Rosenthal

It is unfortunate that you can't see the rear cross member of the frame. Hap's analysis seems correct to me. Yes it is missing a number of items but it also has many correct things. I have one of these in the garage.
I will be really curious to see what it fetches.
The car beside it looks like a R although you can't see enough of the turtle deck to be sure.

I think the car beside it is an N. It is also for sale, and there were set prices on the cars a week or two ago (I believe $32,000 and $33,000). I spoke with the seller briefly about the cars at that time.

---

quote:

...seller falsely represents the car as original and unrestored, of which it is definitely neither.

---

Brent:
All comments worthy of merit. Absolutely correct that a buyer should be aware of what he or she is about to purchase. Those who resell these collectables are masters at soft talk that may or may not correctly inform a prospective buyer.
The seller none-the-less owns the responsibility of disclosing the full known extent of replacements and/or retrofits. You would agree that having cut the back half of this car's frame off and replaced it with a non-original rearend and suspension constitutes a major non-original alteration of the car. It's value is definitely impacted by this.
Regards,
Scott Rosenthal

The photo below (taken from the e-bay auction) shows that the car next to the Model S Roadster does NOT have running boards. (I.e. you would see them through the spokes of the wheel). Also it has the typical Model N “plow share fenders” as well as the pointed rear deck (shown in another photo). All that (if original to the car) indicate it is a Model N Ford parked next to the Model S Ford.



Also, this photo shows the S Roadster does appear to have the correct front axle assembly (looks like it May need some straightening but – it isn’t a T front axle.) Note the rear seat area appears to be different from the standard S Roadster – the curved part from the front seat to the rear is normally straight and the mother-in-law seat is smaller on the standard Model S Roadster.

I don’t have any financial interest in the car and I don’t think I know who the current owner is (they may be listed on the roster – but I think that car is not owned by a member of the Early Ford Registry). I do hope to see it go to a good home that will take care of it and get it back on the road. But I hope that about any old car.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

My 2 cents, the car is not worth the 30K stated, but if i had the cash and was offered to me at a fair price( my def.) I would buy it. Simple. But then I would buy a 64 Cadillac if I had the extra cash too, I always wanted one, ever since HS. J

Hello
I have a 1908 model S that has been custom bodied . I am surprised that the seller was able to pull almost $13 thousand out of that mess of an S. I have done some extensive research on the Model S to help with the restoration of my car so I am fairly familiar with them. The frame is not model S and you can see that it has cut and slid together. The rear fenders are wrong and the mother- in- law portion of the car does not match the front Model S seat assembly. Hopefully the person who purchased the car has another Model S to pull parts from to make this car whole again. I hate seeing these sellers getting away with thier lies, exaggerations and deceptions about these cars.

Thomas,

If you have already posted some pictures of your Model S please let us know the link and I will go take a look there. If not, when you have a chance, please post and or click on my name and e-mail me one or two.

Also, if you haven't checked out the Early Ford Registry at: http://www.earlyfordregistry.com/ they are working to gather and share information about the early cars. There has even been a "run on Brass Works Radiators" with 5 or 6 being ordered in the last year and before that it was really a slow mover.

And if you haven’t already looked up your engine number in Trent’s Early Ford data base, if you send me the number along with which body style (S Runabout or S Roadster) your chassis was originally equipped, I will check to see if it is listed or not. Because Ford started over with engine serial #1 for the Model N Runabout, Model R Runabout, Model S Runabout, and Model S Roadster, for numbers below 2500 or so there were four different cars with that same number. The Canadian production also probably started with number 1 once the engines were being shipped in batches to Ford of Canada. But we believe they put a letter in front of the number. If anyone has additional information on that, please let us know. Because some of the “Accounts Receivable Records” that the database was built from are missing, not all the numbers are listed. But there is approximately a 1 in 4 chance that an NRS or S Roadster number is in the database, with when and where the car was first shipped.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.