Rear bearings - final decision

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Rear bearings - final decision
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Hudson on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 08:25 pm:

OK, I have read the posts with great interest concerning rear axle bearings. I need two. I have two in perfect condition. My question is this - could I use repro ones available from the vendors on the inners, and use the originals on the outer? my thought was that there is less stress and more lubrication on the inners. Thoughts anyone?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 10:25 pm:

Robert,

I would not use the repro roller bearings on a wheel barrow that I cared about. You should be patient and find either good used Hyatt bearings or new old stock. When Chikasha is over there will be more people reading and answering here. Many of our regulars are at the show this week.

Another option - several sources sell sealed permanently lubricated bearings. Permanently lubricated does not mean they last forever. It means you can't ever grease them. So they will wear out some day, but in the mean time they work better than the repro roller bearings. I have not used them, so I can't tell you which kind works best. Some of them are undoubtedly well designed. Maybe some one else has experience and can vouch for a particular brand.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By larry on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 11:17 pm:

Robert,
In the rear end rebuilding tape put out by MTFCA Fred Heuston he commented that it is better to use the repros on the outside of the axle ,This way you can change them faster if they wear out
As the inners are verry hard to replace ,starting with removal of the diferential
best of luck ........... Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 02:34 am:

Robert, Contrary to what many think. The new roller bearings with no grooves work just fine. I have sold hundreds of them and have never seen a failure. Think about it. The inner bearings have a steady supply of oil from the differential so no problem there. The outer bearings could have a problem if you do not use inner seals with the bearings. However, if you do not use inner seals you typically will have oil running out of the outer felt seals, so they are getting too much oil. The best set-up for the outer bearings is to use neoprene or leather inner seals. If you do this the regular felt seals for the outer seals is perfectly ok. The inner seals keep the differential oil from diluting the outer wheel bearing grease and the grease is trapped in a sealed bearing. In a sealed bearing you do not need grooves as the grease is trapped in the bearing and will get plenty of movement from the solid rollers as the grease has no where to go except round and round! This set-up has worked for me for over 40 years with no problems. For those who are still skeptical, remember, the front wheels use solid roller bearings with no grooves, packed in grease, and they work just fine too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 07:48 am:

Glen,

With all due respect, we see those bearings fail in short order on a regular basis around here. In this case it was the reproduction roller pinion bearing but other club members have had the axle bearings fail in exactly the same manner.

Glen I think you care about the Model T hobby just as much as your business. There is probably a lot of potential liability involved with selling or even recommending this product, let alone manufacturing it.

Click here:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/47804.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 10:26 am:

Royce,

Your post makes reference to the driveshaft roller bearings failing. However in looking at the photographs of the various failures in the above mentioned post, it appears those specific failures may have been due to improper set up of the drive shaft sleeve, or the sleeve was damages (read cracked) at the keyway. The key in the keyway may have also been standing to high and came into contact with the roller bearing. In either instance, the bearing or sleeve would come apart in a very short order.

In any event, Robert is asking a question about using roller bearings on the axle shaft and not the drive shaft. While I would prefer to find and use the Hyatt bearing, I would not loose any sleep over using the reproduction axle roller bearings currently being offered by the vendors. I have used the later in both my cars and have had no issues.

"There is probably a lot of liability involved with selling or even recommending this product, let alone manufacturing it." If all the vendors thought this way, there would not be any parts available to restore our cars. Failures do happen with good parts, the majority of the time it is due to human error, not defective parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 10:40 am:

Mark,

Not sure, maybe you missed it but in the text of that post it references two seperate incidences of the reproduction axle roller bearings and sleeves being destroyed. One set in Bud Scudder's sedan and another set in Doug Menkhaus' touring.

In the case of Bud's sedan I helped Bud remove all four failed reproduction roller bearings and sleeves. Inners and outers were all failed. One outer had completely seperated from the cage, all the rest had loose cages and were ready to fall apart.

Both housings were damaged to the point that they were unusable. The unit was full of oil and there were to our eyes no influencing factors except the quality of the bearings and sleeves that could have been the cause for all the bearings to be failed. Your comments please.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carl Sorenson on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 11:08 am:

I have a question,,,New thread ? I don't know....I have a milk crate full of used rear bearings what the best way to check them? Just a question for those who deal with this all the time.....Carl


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 11:38 am:

Carl-
I use a dial indicator to check mine. You can pick one up a Harbor Freight for cheap, and it is accurate enough for checking roller bearings and easy for taking to swap meets. New bearing were .500" Be sure to measure BOTH ends. Acceptable wear is .005" When putting them in, put the bearing end with LESS wear on the outboard side. Also, make sure you replace the bearing sleeves with the correct hardeded sleeves (they are the more expensive sleeves)

Glen-
I have to concur with Royce. I used replacement roller bearings once and they failed. Fortunately, they were on the outer positions, so I was able to replace them easily.

I don't recall if I learned the lesson about the replacement roller bearings and the cheaper "soft" sleeves at the same time, or if I had two seperate lessons.

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 12:05 pm:

Carl
I think that Keith means a dial (or digital) vernier caliper maybe. At least that is what I use. I agree with the .005" wear limit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 12:21 pm:

Keith, I have not heard of any failures of the bearings that we sell. Perhaps there is more than one source for the bearings. Please describe the failure you experienced with your axle bearings and where you bought them. You are right about the soft sleeves and that is why we have our sleeves hardened but that is a separate matter from the bearing. The drive shaft spool bearings do some times fail but it is usually due to failure of the drive shaft sleeve. The sleeve is very hard and if not installed correctly will fail. It should be a press fit on the shaft and the keyway slot must be perfectly aligned with the keyway in the drive shaft. If the key is forced into the key slot due to misalignment the sleeve will fracture at the key slot and break apart. A loose sleeve will place an undue force on the sleeve key slot causing it to fracture. The key must also be checked to insure that it is seated below the bearing surface of the sleeve. These are common problems and will destroy both the sleeve and bearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 12:43 pm:

Glen-
The bad axle bearings happened to me probably 20 years ago. Back then, I got most of my parts from Bob, so I probably got it there. I don't know who the manufacturer was. Is/was there more than one? I do remember they had seven solid rollers and the rollers had nipples on the ends that fit into the bearing ends, where the originals were hollow and the bearing ends have dimples of some sort to hold the rollers in place. It seems to me the nipple end of the rollers is what failed.

I picked up some parts recently and included was pair of a new axle roller bearings and a modern pinion roller bearing the axle bearings looked like the same construction as my old bearings that failed years ago. The pinion bearing has the tradional type of construction with eight hollow(?) rollers, non-spiral, yet dimpled bearing ends to hold the rollers in place.

I like your inner bearing lubrication theory. However, if I ever use the new axle bearings, I will use them on the outside ends, so I can replace them easily.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 03:55 pm:

Keith, After looking at Royce's reference of the driveshaft bearing failures it only confirmed my previous statement. We are talking about apples and oranges. The drive shaft problem is completely different from the axle bearings. Assembling the drive shaft bearing is a difficult task. It is even difficult with the proper tools that most hobbiest do not have. It is almost impossible to drive the sleeve onto the drive shaft and get the keyways of the drive shaft and sleeve properly aligned the first time. This means repeated removal of the sleeve and trying again. If the sleeve is tight on the shaft, which it should be, the sleeve can easily be damaged while driving it on. If the sleeve is loose on the shaft it will surely fail. I have seen numerious other failures of the drive shaft bearing assembly. All were due to failure of the sleeve, not the bearing and all were due to improper assembly or keyway alignment. In every picture shown on the reference post the sleeve is either cracked with pieces missing or completely destroyed. These pieces then proceed to destroy the other parts including the bearing, drive shaft and pinion gear. I should note, in support of my comments, that the reference pictures also shows a destroyed original bearing, not a new one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 08:22 pm:

Uhhhh Glen,

This same car had solid roller axle bearings that failed two years ago, as I explained above. I don't know who assembled the rear axle. The axle bearings that failed had the sleeves properly installed. I also don't know where these bearings were purchased but there is a makers mark visible in some of the pictures of the failed solid roller pinion bearing.

The pictures show a destroyed solid roller pinion bearing, not an original. Most of the Nokin T's club was present for the tear down. How many witnesses do you want to hear from? None who have seen the carnage have any doubt that the failure is a solid roller bearing. I'll be happy to forward you directly phone numbers for every person there if you want to talk to them.

Reference:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/47804.html

Maybe you mis-read the very first post where Bud said that the roller bearing that failed was a reproduction SOLID roller bearing. I copied and pasted it here for your convenience:

By bud scudder on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 08:41 pm:
Hi Folks Finally got around to finding the cause of the rearend failure. The drive shaft broke in two at the pinion bearing sleeve. The sleeve and pinion bearing both failed completely. They were after market of unidentified make and both pretty much disintagrated. The sleeve was in about 7-8 pcs. that we could identify as sleeve. The bearing was of the solid roller type, no spirals and it was in many pcs. also. It seems that cage pins that type of bearing is held together with were pretty much non-existant.(Ground Up) We will probably never know which went first,the sleeve or the bearing. We have many pictures to down load. We will send them along asap. The thrust bearing was Ford script and in very,very good condition. The pinion gear was in excellent shape and the ring gear from what I could see was also in very good condition. I will report on spider and other components as soon as I take it the rest of the way apart. More to follow BUD

End quote.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 12:04 am:

To All:

I rebuilt a '26 rear end 7 years ago with then current production solid roller bearings,for axel and pinion. Also used the more expensive axel hardened bearing sleeves.

Now,keep in mind the pinion bearing runs in a cast iron section without a separate bearing sleeve.

Keeping this in mind, upon a second rebuild last year, the pinion bearing showed wear on the cages from the rollers grinding into it. Same wear on the axel roller cages.The outer roller cages were loose and showed roller grinding in the retainers, same as the pinion bearing. The outer sleeves showed grinding on the outer ends, the inner sleeves were fine. Quality lubricant made by Lubriplate was used in the "pumpkin" and Morey's Red axel grease on the outer bearings. Neoprene seals did not fail.

The second re-build was done because I was unhappy with the gearing..... 3.25 .... 12 tooth pinion with a 39 tooth ring gear. Even though I live in a flat area of southern coastal New Jersey, we do have some moderate rolling hills. Henry was right to use the 3.63 gearing with his 20 HP engine.

In preparation for this second re-build, I looked for the best Ford hyatt style roller bearings for the axel and pinion. Happy to say I did find a perfect pinion bearing ( .562 ) and perfect ( .500) axel roller bearings. The pinion housing wore .003 from last re-build & was replaced with NOS part.

Glenn, you mentioned there may have been several sources for the solid roller bearings. So far those who have posted here have had problems with the solid roller bearings. Sorry to report my findings, but they're CRAP.


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