I bought one of those snappy new sealed bearing fan hubs for the '23 T and was surprised to find that on disassembly, the old unit had a full 1/8 of an inch of slop fore & aft. Did Henry really build it this way? What takes up end play? In the unit on the car, the front part of the axle and the rear of the cast iron arm showed some signs of wear.
The only other parts not shown in the pic are the fan & cork gasket.
The unit Lang's dispatched is even worse with fully 1/2 inch of slop. I'm going to call Langs about this, but I thought somebody here might have already figured this out.
On the original there should be a felt seal #3983 and a fan shaft cap (retainer) #3982 between the rear bushing and the bracket. This will take up the 1/8" you're missing. Not sure about the "new" one.
Did anybody ever come to a conclusion about why there is so much slack in the pulley?I just recieved one from Snyder's and it also has lots of movement fore and aft.I was thinking of making a spacer to take up the slack.Has anybody else run into this?
I bought one from Model T Ranch and had no problems with it.
Maybe it is because it is a brass type.
The steel plate is what I used to rivet the blades to the hub.
Anyone run into this problem yet?
Tim; No, I have both pulleys from Snyders and they line up well. It looks like a chevie head on that block, can that have any thing to do with the problem ? A little bit of misegination can have dire effects on the out come.
I didn't get this from Snyders, I got it though another major vendor. And much to my dismay, the bag this came in said Texas T Parts on it. I did blame the head when the first fan didn't line up. I used a 27 Fan with a Performance T Parts hub on it. Everything lines up perfectly on a stock 27, but the adapter on this head pushed the assembly forward. By coincidence it was off by the same amount. I could run a thinner belt, but I'd rather have it right.
This fan bracket is from a 22. It bolts to the timing plate, so there is no way the head has any effect on it. I have used PTP's fan hubs in the past, and they all lined up perfectly.
Now you can buy #3963c fan belt guide. Wait, it might wear the side of the belt.
No problem, belts are sold on the next page.
I don't have the radiator on it yet, but I bet this setup would come real close to hitting it. I'll figure something out, or send the crappy part back. I already gave the supplier instructions not to ever send me any marked TTP. So far it's been 100% garbage from that place. It's like a bad rash that keeps coming back, no matter how hard I try someone keeps sneaking one of these inferior parts into my orders.
Andy, do something helpful and find me a decent 20's fan assembly, I "borrowed" this one from a customers project to see if it would fit. You must have one somewhere.
If you look at the Stotlz bearing above, you see that the rear bearing is recessed into the hub, moving the fan back into the proper place. This paperweight I have here now has a collar pushing the hub even further forward and out of alignment.
I have that TTP aluminum fan pulley/hub on my car with the same adjustment arm as on your Thunderbolt there. Everything lines up just fine. I'll take pics if you'd like.
I'd like to see photos, I assembled this according to the instructions. I wonder why mine does not fit?
Pics, coming up.
Rear bearing is "about" flush with rear face of hub and there is a spacer, about 1/4" thick between the rear bearing and the mounting arm. I assume there is a spacer captive between the bearings.
Yes, I know that the belt is incorrect also. The bottom pulley wobbles and a full-width belt climbs off. This four-rib poly-V works just grand!
I hate to break this to you Seth, but your in the same boat. The front edge of that belt is almost halfway back on the top pulley and all the way forward on the bottom one.... I could use a skinny belt too. I'd rather have a part that fits like it's supposed to. $65+/- for something that does not fit right.... And if I return it? I have to pay the shipping - both ways.
Is that a wooden spark advance rod?
No sir, I'm not in your boat. The crank pulley is on its rearward wobble. The two pulleys may not be centered perfectly but the wobble of the bottom pulley is gross in my car's case.
Heck yes that's a red oak advance rod that could double as a rubber band gun! Way cooler than that bent up old floppy rod that was in there don't ya think? Increase or decrease the value of my car? :-)
I have sympathy for anyone who orders parts today expecting them to work out of the box. I put one of those TTP hubs on someone elses car this summer and had to make a distance spacer to keep it from hitting the bracket. For me that was easy as I own a lathe but for others?
Tim, why can't you cut the thrust portion off of an old fan bushing and install it at the front to move the pulley back? I tend to look at many of these improvements like this, if I have to re-engineer the thing out of the box why not just make it in the first place. Next ball bearing fan hub I put on anything will be one I modify from the start using an original hub. It really isn't a deal at $60 if it doesn't work. If it doesn' work out of the box it isn't a deal at any price.
Most of these things are tribal knowledge in that anyone who has done it before knows what has to be done. RM brakes are another example.
I can fix it, that's not the point. I started this with the thought that maybe I did something wrong. Benefit of the doubt. After seeing Seths, I see it's the part, not the mechanic.
I should fix it and proudly display it on my car, so I have something to talk about when someone asks me to open the hood.
You are almost right about making it yourself. A better option is to find like minded people that make quality parts that do what they are supposed to. There are many people out there that can make things of quality, instead of taking the easy way out and just slapping things together "good enough". I will get another fan hub for my customers car, and probably redesign this one for my own. I don't mind a hack job on my stuff, but not for someone else's car. I'm posting on here to save someone else the headache and wasted time I am dealing with.
Tim, why don't you call Texas T Parts and ask them what your doing wrong? Have them look at your photo's here on the forum and let them tell you how to make their part work. They designed the part so they would be the best ones to instruct us on how to install it so it works.
Dave, I tried that before, when the "leakless" waterpump fell apart and bounced the fan into my brand new radiator. Ben argued with me about it, called me something along the line of unreasonable or disagreeable, called me a liar when I mentioned the others (not by name) that had talked to him about the same problem, and then "conceded" by letting me get a store credit that amounted to three books worth about $30. I paid for $180 pump, and the shipping both ways.
I'm fairly new in the business world, but I am pretty sure fighting with your customers is not the right think to do. Other than instances like this, where I can maybe save someone else a headache, I am done with them.
On the one I installed a few years back I had to grind some of the face off the back on the lower part of the bracket and some off the front of the upper part of the bracket to line the pulleys up. Mine was bought from Snyder's but assume they come from the same place....Michael Pawelek
The one purchased from Langs needed no adjustment or spacers and fit well out of the box on my 26. I am not sure if it was Mfg by TTP or not
Maybe it's assembled wrong?
I installed one on my 26 and didn't have any "slop" but it did have too much lateral movement so i went to Ace hardware and found some bronze bushings thats what they are listed as on the box,i bought several thicknesses and now i have about 3/16 of travel which is ok as the belt keeps the pulley centered.
I am not sure what issue is here. I have run those same parts on 2 of my cars and have no problem with them at all. Have also tried several other Texas T items and all have performed very well.
Let me know If I can help you troubleshoot the issue.
Ok Tom, I'll take you up on that! Can you post photos of how you assembled yours? I followed the directions. Bolt through hub, spacer, then the mounting arm, non-threaded side first, then the nut on the back. Exactly the same way Seth did his, my photo's just too dark. Just so we're comparing apples to apples, if your fan off a mid 20's car?
If you are comparing this to your 26/27 cars, they are a completely different fan assembly. I will admit that although I don't see how, it may be possible that we have assembled these in the wrong order.
Here's a closer brighter view.
OK Tim. I am a bit of a novice here so go easy. Here is what I did and I think I see. My cars are 26's with the different mount, however, one of them has an early timing cover on it and I have the fan arm that was on it originally. I just drove over to where I keep my cars to take a look. If I take the older style arm and mount it on the timing covers so it would be just like yours and put the TTP pulley on the fan shaft that came with that mount it lines up perfectly. Both with where the 26 mount puts the pulley and where the arm mount puts the pulley. I think this is what shoudl be expected is that the mount on the 26 did not move the pulley any further in or out in position to the crank pulley.
What is very apparent looking at your picture and looking at my cars is that I do not have anywhere near the shaft showing on either end of the pulley. I took one apart and measured from the inside of the head of the shaft to the end of the shaft portion (not the threads) and get 2 1/8 inches. From just looking at mine vs yours it appears to me that the shaft portion of your fan shaft is much longer than what I have. I came back and measured a new fanshaft that I have and it also measured 2 1/8 inches.
Is it possible that you have a fan shaft from one of the early long pulley set ups, maybe like Joe Jeffers shows above on his car? I know that somewhere along the line that Ford changed the thickness of the radiator and I believe used a longer pulley assembly to put the fan closer to the thinner radiator.
Maybe someone smarter than I am on here can comment on that. I think that assembly used a fan shaft with a much longer shaft section. If you have one of those it would account for what I see in your picture.
What does your fan shaft measure?
I just looked in my Ford Parts book and the earlier cars used a fan shaft Part #3966 whereas the later cars used a 3966b or c part number. It appears the earlier shaft is longer.
Let me know what you think.
There are two fan assemblys for the 26/27 cars. One is what I call a long nose for the three core radiator and the other is a short nose fan assmbly for the five row radiator. I have both fans and had to put the short one on my car with the five row tube radiator.
When I changed to the three row radiator I used the long nose fan assembly.
Don't know, but that might make a difference with the pulleys.
Hope this helps ya!
Hi Tim, I think that Tom may have identified the cause of your problem. Check your fan shaft; if it has a lube hole in the threaded end it will be way too long and is not correct for this setup. You need to use the shorter one with the lube hole in the head of the fan shaft.
Good Luck with your project, Bill
I've ordered a replacement "1922" fan assembly, and another ball bearing hub from another source. I'll line them all up and take photos when they arrive. I may have the original hub for this one as well. I'll post my findings.
Tim, let me clarify, I didn't mean that you might have assembled it wrong, what I was trying to suggest was that possibly whoever assembled the hub, assembled it wrong.
I recently replaced the fan pulley on my 26 with a sealed bearing pulley. I too found approximately 1/4"- 5/16" slop. I found that the original bronze bushings have a thrust flange approximately 1/8" add to that the oil felt and retainer cup and you have approximately 5/16" whereas the sealed bearings are pressed in flush with the hub. I found 2 spacers the diameter of the shaft and to seat against the inner race of the bearing. One front, one rear. My pulley aligns perfectly! Simple logic!
This might be a little off track but several years back my fire dept. ask if I could fix the tracking problem with the fan belt on their 24 TT fire truck they had planned to have in a parade that weekend. Someone had made up a belt up out of a leather pants belt and had used a metal belt lasing to connect it. Figure it to be an easy job I went to NAPA and got a modern serpentine multi V belt to replace it.
Still had a problem since the fan pulley was worn so to save time ordering a replacement I cast up their original and added the ball bearings. That should have been it but now the water pump pulley was slipping because it used a very small diameter pulley and the packing nut had to be over tightened to keep it from leaking. This plus the contact surface is only on the tips of the Vees of the belt. So I cast a new pump pulley, installed it and marked where the belt was running on both the fan and pump pulleys. Removed both fan and pump pulley and machined the Vees in the pulleys to match the ones on the belt giving full contact of the belt.
These have been on all this time and have never given them a problem tracking or slipping since but not for the purist, however, I did save the original parts and placed them in the tool box with a note so if someday they want restore the truck back these original parts will be there. Bob
That water pump must have been mighty tight because the Dayco belt that you see in my post's pictures above has a tremendous amount of grip on the pulleys. So much in fact that I feel like it would drive a fan-hub mounted ALTERNATOR for the pre-generator engines, for folks that need electrical power but refuse to mount one of those belt-driven alternator kits. My car had one of those horrid things - for less than 24 hours after it got here!
Certainly your machined grooves would improve the grip even more. Seth
Seth, can you give us a number for the belt you are using?? I like the way you say it works.
Sure Andy. The Dayco number is 5040285 and I purchased it at Advance Auto Parts. My bottom pulley is 3.5 inches in diameter and the fan is close to centered on the radiator from left to right. There is some 1.5" fan/crank pulley clearance with my fan as you can see in the picture.......Seth
I'm running one of the aluminum fan hubs on my touring car because I was tired of the grease being slung all over the place (someone installed a grease fitting) and I wanted something with less maintenance since I drive my car a lot. I don't remember which one of the major vendors I got it from, but in my opinion it was not ready to be installed out of the box. I seem to remember there being excess space when the hub was installed on the shaft (it's been a couple years). I installed a washer on the rear of the shaft that I cut a step in where the thick part of the washer was against the race of the bearing and the thin part that I cut away was for relief next to the shielded area of the bearing. I can't remember if I did the same for the front bearing or not and don't want to take everything apart to find out.
The thing that really bothered me most though was that there was no spacer between the 2 bearings to eliminate a thrust load, which those bearings are not designed for. If the bearings were left loose enough to not apply a thrust load the bearing races would spin on the fan shaft. If the bearings were tighten enough to get the races to stop spinning, there was an excessive thurst load applied that in my opinion would reduce their life. I removed a bearing from the hub and made a spacer with an ID of the fan shaft, the OD of the inner race and a few .000's longer than the space between the bearings. Now I can tighten the shaft with out fear of damaging the bearings.
I still run the stamped steel pulley on the crank and a flat belt that the vendors sell.
I found a shaft out of my junk pile that fit fairly snug in the bearings and used loctite to secure the shaft the bearing. No other modifications were done and the pully has been working well. The original set-up in my opinion is one of the most un-reliable parts of the car.
When you took your old fan hub off did it have a felt and a cup washer on it. I think that the old hub design had both of those and if so would account for the need for a small spacer to take up that distance.
Also I am confused by your thoughts about having to keep the bearing race from turning on the shaft. On the old style the entire hub turned on this shaft, why would allowing the race to be able to turn some on the shaft be an issue? It seems from your efforts that you wanted to lock the races in place to keep them from turning at all, is that correct? Just trying to understand the different approaches here.
When I installed mine, I did use a small spacer washer but I did not try to lock the races to the shaft in any way. I took one apart the other day and it seems to me that the belt tension has kept the race from turning and I see no signs of any wear on the shaft or bearing in the area where the bearing contacts the shaft.
Would like to hear more opinions on this from anyone. Does either approach work equally as well?
Wow,,,,I don't know if I want to jump in here or not....I was going to try and make my "own" fan pulley as a first time lathe project....But it sounds kinda' hairy....It seems that if I had a good sample to work off of it wouldn't be that hard ???? Maybe I should start with a gear-shift knob for my Ruckstell ??? CARL
Tom, the original fan hub on my car had the felt seal and cup washer. It also had bronze bushings that rode on the fan shaft that were supposed to be lubricated, I think originally with oil but mine was converted to a grease fitting. I was concerned about the races being able to turn on the shaft and since there would be no futher lubrication in that area, I felt there was a possibility that the bearing races could spin and gauld themselves or cause wear to the fan shaft. I wanted the races "locked" to where there was no chance of that occuring and the way I chose to do it was to build the spacer for the races to prevent preload. Your way and Lock-tite on the races may work perfectly, but I'm fairly certain that there shouldn't be any issues or surprises when I take mine apart.
I see your point here and it does make a lot of sense. I will continue to monitor mine and see if I see any movement or undue wear of the shaft or the bearing race in time.
Would enjoy hearing from anyone who has run for a lot of hours with a ball bearing hub and how you have it installed and with what results.
IMO, this application is so lightly loaded that it probably makes no difference whether the inner races are locked to the shaft or not.
For maximum life, a rolling-element bearing should have the outside race stationary and the inside race should turn. This gives the smaller race ALL of its surface area to deal with fatigue.
This application is opposite of that, as is an automotive wheel bearing on a stationary axle or spindle. In the case of adjustable automotive hub bearings, it is best if the inner races can "walk" or "creep" on the spindle to get the maximum life out of the bearing. Because of this creeping, the spindle needs to be hard on the surface to prevent wear.
If there is no spacer between the bearing inner races in this modern fan hub, I would smear some anti-seize lubricant on the fan shaft and assemble it, making sure there was some axial play so that there was no preload on the bearings. This way, even if the inner races creep on the relatively soft fan shaft there should be no wear or galling.
Since the loading is so light, either locked (Kenny's approach) or free (your approach) should be fine.
'Tis how I see it anyway!
Was wondering if you got your new parts yet and what you found as a result.
Let us know
No new parts have arrived, still waiting. Sooooo.... While bored today I took Seth's advice and started grinding. I ground half the problem off the bottom of the bracket and the other half off the top end. This left me with two bolts with shoulders in the wrong places. I ground each of the bolts down and ran a die over the top one so it would go in deeper, without the spacer that came with the hub. This solved the problem. It only took me two hours to modify this "bolt on" part.
Then I had to deal with the fact that the tensioning bolt no longer came in contact with the modified arm. That required me welding on a plate so there is some way to keep the belt tight. This really is not a big deal on my own car, but if this was going on a customers car I would be really embarrassed. Hopefully the new parts will fit properly right out of the box, as they will be going on a customers car and he deserves better than this piece of artwork I have here now.
I still believe that you started out with the wrong shaft bolt and when you get the new parts this might be evident. I am very curious as to what you find. Please keep us posted.
Not sure what he started with however I will tell you my experience with this same setup. Last spring I helped a chapter member get his car ready to use after many years of neglect. His fan bushings were wore out and I told him I could install new bushings which he would have to ensure were lubricated frequently or be could buy one of these sealed bearing units. When I put the sealed unit on (car was a 22 that was this mans grandfathers car bought new) the pulley would line up if all the way forward on the shaft. The problem was there was about 3/16ths fore and aft travel on the shaft. This was no problem as I have a lathe and cut one of the fan bushings to the correct length to use as a spacer.
This hub from TTP (purchased through Snyder's) did not come with any type of spacer and frankly it would have taken more time to go in the house, call them and ask for one to be sent than it did to just fix it.
Frankly, in Tim's case I would have just cut the thrust portion of the original bushing off and installed it at the front of the shaft to move the hub back then cut any spacer as required to eliminate end play. I would not have removed material from both sides of the arm as described and added the adjustment tab. With a concern about having a half a--ed mod that sounds like exactly what he now has.
I am a firm believer in any mod that is reversable and does no harm to original parts (which bushings cut from wore out bushings would have done for him). He now has a fan arm that is only good for a specific application.
Stand back and analyze before modifying anything. You will often find your first approach was wrong. Just my opinion.
Putting the spacer on the other end was my first thought. It made the bolt contact the fan blades, so they would not turn, and only corrected half the alignment problem.
I would have then turned the shaft down so as to thread into the arm further.
"He now has a fan arm that is only good for a specific application." So it's not ok to modify a fan bracket but it is ok to modify a fan shaft? If the fan brackets were a rare part I could see the point but many do not have lathe capabilities at home, original fan brackets are easily found on ebay or swap meets, and there are repro fan brackets as well as fan shafts available from any of the vendors. Grinding a small amount off the fan bracket to line the repro pulley up with the crankshaft pulley worked just fine for me and the next owner will be happy that the belt runs true and stays in place. This is not a world shaking modification compared to all the dissagreements about distributors, electronic ignition, water pumps etc. Just my opinion....and my Model T! ....Michael Pawelek
Gary, I did that too.
Any parts yet? Sure would like to see what you find.
No parts yet.... I think UPS is on strike or something.
Where the heck did you order from that would take this long to arrive. Want to make sure I dont order from there.
I was doing some work on my car today and happened to have your picture from above on my workbench.
What I think I noticed today is that the thickness of my timing gear cover where the fan arm mounts appears to be much thinner than what I see in your picture.
Are you using some kind of accessory distributor that replaces the timing cover? If so have you compared the thickness at the boss where the arm attaches to a regular timing cover? I am real curious as to what you find when you take a look at that. Might be contributing to the issue here as well.
Did you ever get your parts and get this fixed? Sure would like to see what you found out after all your efforts to resolve the problem.
Your input here would be great.
I have not given up on this yet. I did order a replacement modern fan hub from two other sources. I also ordered a used fan to replace the one I butchered, all I got was the fan blade. I'm waiting for another fan bracket, bolts, nut, and four screws to arrive before I can proceed. If you would like to donate one so I can finally finish this, I'll give you my address. I'm going to mount a stock timing plate on an engine, test fit the fan with each hub, then swap out to the Bosch front plate setup. You may have something about the plate. I'll take photos and publicize the results when I'm done.