After reading the fascinating story of the 1917 Rip Van Winkle Touring car I am just curious if it has been located yet. Bruce's article stated it was last seen in an antique shop in California as a display. It would be fun to know of its whereabouts!

Bob,

Please share if it is a recent article or one of the articles originally published in the Vintage Ford in 1978 and 1991.

Unless a garage fire or a major traffic accident took it out, it has got to be out there somewhere.

I have read the 1991 Vintage Ford article a long time ago and I often review the pictures in Bruce's book "The Model T Ford" starting on page 260. But I don't recall any comments about which body maker produced the body or what the body maker serial number was or where it might have been located. If anyone recalls reading that information, please let me know.

This is similar to the lottery. Many purchase a ticket not because it is likely they will win but they purchased the ticket to dream, "What would I do if I won?" And how many of us have looked into the old barn, the old warehouse, etc. hoping to discover one more well preserved but undiscovered Ford? There is at least one more out there -- who will find it? For example read Bruce's comments on a Sep 1915 touring at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1915_ford.htm

Hap 1915 Model T Touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runab

The last I heard, the car is owned by a member in Bakersfield, CA. He had it at the Bakersfield swap meet several years ago and let me drive it around the area.
Bruce

Yes. His name is Daniel, but I've forgotten his last name. I got to crank start it at Bakersfield, which was sort of a thrill. The car is such a celebrity and after having read about it so many years ago, to see it, touch it and crank it was really pretty cool.

Of course, if I was as charming as Bruce I might have driven it, too...

Dan Holthaus owns the car. He does live in Bakersfield and regularly sells at the swap meet. Stop by and say hello, he is very friendly. His is the first space as you enter the field on the left next to the fence. He brought his car to the swap meet a few years back when I also brought my 1917, named "Another Rip Van Winkle" In a Vintage Ford article some years back. My car was sold at the last swap meet, as some of you may remember and is now owned by Rodney Flournoy in Likely, California , a truly remarkable man who has quite a collection of unrestored cars.

You know, I just realized that my car is EARLIER than this "original" T Touring listed in the article Hap linked to. My serial number is #857767, with a casting date of 6/23/05. This means that my car was 48,277 cars earlier, according to the serial numbers.

Like the car in the article, my car has brass rimmed headlights, cowl lights and tail light.

My hood is steel, like the one in the article.

My head light lens are plain glass. (their's were changed to H lens--not original)

Both cars have a hand Klaxon (not from factory, I know)

Steering column has holes for horn button and tube for wires, but then again the car was rewooded recently and the firewall is homeade, so I'm thinking they might have replaced the column. (The article car had BOTH kinds of horns, but their column did not have holes or tube--another reason to think that my column was switched out--right?)

The foot pedals are RIBBED. Theirs were not. (VERY interesting...were mine swamped out???

Hogs head is steel (according to my magnet...) No word on their car.

Rear end does not have reinforcing ribs on back of plates. No word on theirs.

Lastly, my rear spring is tapered, but the front is not (there was a transitionary time when this configuration existed...see below)

"FRONT: Springs slowly changed to non-taper design beginning in late 1915 or 1916 on some production"

My question is HOW late? My serial number suggests an approx assembly date of August 10th, 1915. Anyone know of an original Touring AFTER that date with a tapered front spring?

So.....it seems as though my car is halfway between the main transition points Bruce points out online:

1. Brass trim on the lamps is dropped in favor of black-painted steel.
2. The ribs on the foot pedals were replaced with the smooth-surface type.
3. The iron transmission cover replaced the aluminum type.
4. The hood is steel rather than aluminum.
5. The horns were all magneto type after October 1915.
6. Brake backing plates all had the reinforcing ribs.


Do you think the previous owner/s maybe swapped out the plain pedals for ribbed ones? If they truly were trying to make a newer car seem older (brass), wouldn't they not keep a newer column?

-Jasper

I own a 16 roadster that I believe that all of the components that are present are original. I did not believe this originally, but HAP’s link to Bruce’s note makes me believe that all parts on the car may be completely original now. In addition the nature of where the car was found and when makes be believe that it is original and that Ford documentation may not be accurate in all cases for all assembly plants.

My 16 has a serial number, that if I remember correctly, according to Bruce’s book was built two days after the 1 Millionth Model T in December of 15.

The first thing I noticed about this car was that it did not have a correct 15 aluminum hogs head. Then I saw the article in the Vintage Ford on the 1 Millionth Model T. My car has the same supposedly earlier hogs head as engine 1 Million.

My car has the smooth pedals which are supposed to be correct for 16.

It does NOT have the holes or the tube for the horn button on the steering column. Maybe they were still putting non electric horns on at that late date. I have the “correct steering column”. Guess what, I bet I use the real correct column, not the supposedly correct column..

The only lights on the car are the headlights. The headlight rims are brass plated steel.

The rear axle backing plates are the smooth 15 style.

We continue to learn, that we do not know everything about the Model T.

azterry- do your dash brackets look like this?

Phil I will look at them soon. If they are different I will get photos as soon as I can.

Phil -- I've never seen dash brackets like that. What's the deal on those?

Phil,

At first I was confused at that picture, but looking at it again I see that the ground is to the left, and the picture is tilted 90 degress to the right, correct? In other words, the right side of the picture above is actually the top?

-Jasper

John Regan posted that pic along with (as I recall) some supporting documentation some time ago. I've been looking for the text of his message, but it may have been lost during my computer meltdown a while back.

Anyway, the bracket is supposed to have been used only during 1916; seems to be something of a rare bird. It would be interesting to see how many 1916 cars have survived with this bracket.

Here is the photo of one of my fire wall brackets. You can also see that there are no re-enforcing ribs on the aluminum hogs head.

Phil:

Just to help your search, I AM NOT THE SOURCE of the picture of that dash bracket and in fact this is the first I have seen or heard of it. I am adding it to the list of things that I shall research next trip to BRC. That is fascinating. I AM the source of the front spring picture for the unique spring for 1916. It makes sense that Ford would use a formed steel dash bracket as a replacement for the forged bracket on his way to making things cheaper.

John:

OOPS! I could have sworn this was one of yours. Sorry about that. This getting older makes the mind play tricks sometimes.....

Azterry- Your aluminum hogshead is most likely correct.
Many people think the only difference between "early" and "late" style aluminum hogsheads are reinforcing ribs in the corners. There are quite a few correct "late" style aluminum hogsheads out there on '15 and '16's that do not have reinforcing ribs in the corners. The only real way to tell the difference is to look at the clutch release yoke inside the cover. The yoke that holds the bronze clutch release collar to the clutch release shaft is attached with machine screws on the "early" aluminum hogsheads (all of these early ones do not have reinforcing ribs). The same yoke is attached to the clutch release shaft in the "late" style aluminum hogsheads with rivets (some of these hogsheads have reinforcing ribs at the corners and some do not). If your '15 or '16 has an aluminum hogshead with no reinforcing ribs at the corners and the yoke is rivited to the clutch release shaft, then odds are very good that this is the hogshead that was installed on your engine at the Ford factory.
Adam Doleshal
Adam's Antique Auto Parts, LLC

Adam,

Thank you for the additional information on the hogs head. Your information becoming public knowledge is very valuable.

Do you have any input on my earlier comets about the steering column or rear axle backing plates?

Like I said earlier we continue to learn.

Terry.

For what its worth, I have an original Jan 16 touring car and the hogshead is iron, there is a horn button on the steering column and the dash brackets are the customary early type. It has a brass radiator but the only brass on the sidelamps and tailamps are the rivits.