Could some of you provice pictures of a correct bulb horn (under the hood) and also a magneto horn (under the hood) for a '15 T?

I see lots of pictures of '14's and earlier, but can't find pictures of a '15, where it's under the hood. Specifically, details on the shape, bracket and mounting position on the firewall next to the steering column.

I'm also curious to see a magneto horn with the "brass trimming", as described in Bruce's online info.

-Jasper

Jasper: I will try to post a couple of pictures of the bulb horn. The pictures were posted to the forum some time ago and I saved them to guide me in mounting my bulb horn. The bulb horn for 1915 has a diamond shaped mounting bracket, the 1913/1914 mounting bracket was oval shaped. This picture shows the 90 degree fitting that is unique to the 1915s.

Thank you Barry--exactly what I was looking for! Do you have any other pics you can email me directly?

Also, 1914's and earlier had two brands of horns. Would '15's have the same two brands?

-Jasper

Jasper: I will check for more pictures, not sure if any are better than the above. Also, I have no idea about the brand of horns, but I am confident about the mounting bracket differences.

Barry

Thanks Barry. Here's what the online encycl. states:

1909-1911 Rubes or Non-Pareil double-twist. By 1911 the hose connection pointed down at an angle so that the hose did not interfere with the “door” opening.
1912 Rubes or Non-Pareil double or single-twist. Late production used some 1913 styles.
1913-1914 Rubes or Non-Pareil single-twist. Now made of steel with brass trim.
1915 Early production used the bulb horn, mounted under the hood. This was superseded by a magneto-powered horn, with a brass-trimmed bell, beginning on some production in January 1915. Both horns mounted under the hood by the steering column. The magneto horns were manufactured by Bridgeport Brass initially, then by Heinze and Clum. All electric, with no brass trim, by October 1915.

To clarify the above, in January '15, they experimented with a magneto-powered horn on about 10,000 cards, then went back to bulb. I'm wondering when did they then switch back to magneto horns in '15? If by October 15, all the cars had magneto, does that mean that it was a sudden change in October, or gradual up until October, when 100% of them had mag horns? Am I making any sense here?

Anyone want to guess what my car had originally for a horn? Remember, it was built before the seemingly "unrestored and original" '15 Touring found in PA in '98 which did not have an electic horn, nor the tube under the steering column, nor holes for a horn button.

Would love to know anyone else with a '15 Touring built after August 10th, 1915 that they think is original and unrestored to get a better idea of the horn situation.

-Jasper

Jasper -- The above info isn't correct regarding the 13-15 horns. They were all brass, not steel, but the bodies of the horns (all except the screen and trim ring) were painted black. Barry is right about the mounting brackets. You can see the "diamond" shaped on on mine. Mine's an early '15, and I don't know what was going on with the horns by August. I suspect that most of them by then had the magneto horns, as that was about time for the start of the '16 production year.



This one is a Rube's; I've seen both Rube's and Nonpariel in the 13-14 ones, and I expect that both companies made them in '15 as well.

Mike.

Mike, do you have a picture of the horn bulb mounted on the inner panel?

Yes, but my car came to me without the horn, so I don't know whether I have it mounted in its original location. Apparently the car did come with a bulb horn when new. I also have a Hand-Klaxton mounted, so my bulb may be a bit forward of where it's supposed to be. My horn, elbow, and flex tubing and upper bracket are all original '15; the bulb is a repro.

I agree with Mike, a steel horn if one was ever made is one rare animal. I wonder if any were ever made.

Additionally there were horns made by Standard Thermometer Corp. The main difference between 1913 - 14 horns and the 1915 horn is that the reed was mounted directly to the horn in 1913 - 14. In 1915 the horn had a 90 degree elbow where the reed would have been. The reed was mounted at the other end of the flexible tube above the body mount, inside the bulb on the 1915 types.

I also wonder if any production vehicle actually had the horn bulb mounted to the steering column as shown in some pictures of factory prototypes in Bruce's book. This would be rather unhandy to use compared to the more commonly seen mounting of the bulb to the side of the body.

Royce

1915 interior 1915interior.JPG (70.0 k)

Barry -- Someone posted a pic a while back of the dummy door panel where the horn mounts, without the fiber (cardboard) panel in place, so you could see the wood inside. It showed a block of wood below the one at the top of the panel, which apparently was specifically for mounting the horn bulb. Maybe someone has it and will re-post it.

Mike.

I don't have time at the moment to find it again on the computer but if you look at Leon's 1915 touring wood structure on the posting about "Seat lid hinges" it clearly shows that block on the driver's side wood.

Hap 1915 Model T Touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout

The arrow points to the wooden block where the horn bulb would be mounted to the body.



I wonder if any of the body makers produced a body that did not have that during the time that the bulb horns were used? If so those would have had to use the steering column mounting. Or did they order horns and mount them using the mounting that came with the horn?

Hap 1915 Model T Touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout

Hap, thank you for putting up the above picture. Do you know how the block is mounted? I would believe that it has to be flush with the rest of the frame, which might indicate that it is inset?? I have also wondered about steering wheel mounting. Although I have seen the Ford advertising picture with the horn there, I have never seen such a mount in practice. Someone once told me that they had such a mount at one time, while someone else told me that all factory mounts were on the side panel and only after market horns were mounted on the steering column.

My Feb 1915 touring firewall. It may have been moved to the steering column bolt hole. You can see two small holes and very faint outline of the horn mount. Leon Parker

I don't have any real proof on this, but I believe the '13 horns had a round bracket as opposed to the later style bracket.

Larry, For what it's worth ,I asked Bruce about the oval mounts verses the scalloped ones. He said he could find no differences except there were different suppliers. I have had both kinds but the oval one seem more plentyful.

Larry is right, the '13 and '14 horns have the oval bracket. You need the scalloped bracket on the '15 horn to fit between the other hardware on the firewall.

The earlier horns are threaded so that the reed screws directly into the horn itself, then the hose screws on to the horn surrounding the reed.

The '15 horns are different in the way the reed mounts to the horn. It won't fit at the firewall because the elbow is screwed right onto the horn. In the '15 horn setup the reed is inside the rubber bulb, screwed into the adapter at that end.

Both horns can be made by any of the manufacturers but will have these differences in year application IMHO.

Royce

Jasper,
Do you require photos of the brass magneto horn in it's mounted postion?If so I can supply photos of mine.The Bridgeport horns aren't exactly brass "trimmed".The entire horn section is of brass with a one piece flared bell.

Here's the horn off of the car.I believe to be really "correct"these should be painted black,but it's such a shame to cover that nice brass

My June 15 touing came out of the field w/out a bulb horn or magneto horn. No wire tube on the steering column. However, under the upholstery on the drivers side is the mounting plate for a bulb horn, but there is no evidence one was ever mounted there. Now it did have 14 rear fenders and gas headlights.

Just to expand on the 1915 magneto horn that Darren Wallace has posted a picture of, those horns were made by the Bridgeport Brass Company. The manufacturer's name is visible when looking at the horn from the front. It is located on the ring that forms the base of the bell. The 10,000 1915 Model Ts using a magneto horn almost certainly used Bridgeport Brass Company Horns. The few original unmolested Bridgeport Brass horns that I have seen were painted black all over. But, as Darren also points out, they look much nicer when the brass bell is striped and polished.

Respectfully Submitted,

Trent Boggess

Trent, Have you any information on the brass bulb horns for the early 1915's?

I'll use this horn in my 1915 nearing completion. I don't know whether there's brass under the paint? I can't find any markings on it except for "OIL" at the rear. Any info on this? [excuse newbie question] Thanks.

That'a a Hand Signal horn and you are missing/not showing the mounting bracket. It should have a data plate on it. Very nice horn.

My bridgport horn was in great condition--I regret now "cleaning it up" and the bell was unpainted brass, the body old black paint. Also mine has tiny ridges running the length of the bell, instead of just being round. Wish it weren't packed away so I could take a pic of it.
T'
David D.

"Old Henry", a September 1915 touring/truck (Wilson body) also has a Bridgeport horn. Some of the rounded horn bell is cracking. This comes from the brass hardening with every vibration of the car. It is still a beautiful piece of art.

Tour America,
JC in Sycamore, Ohio

David, I have the same horn. But, I don't have a coil spring on the rack like you have. I think I have an internal coil sping that returns the rack to the upper position. Has the spring ever got caught in the gear teeth? I would be concerned about breaking a gear tooth if someone pushed hard and the spring got caught.

David Norton and Thomas Miller -

The coil spring on David's horn, in my opinion, is a homemade fix or repair. I doubt if it came new that way. As mentioned by Thomas, there should be a spring internally.

I have seen this fix applied to other manual Klaxxon style horns, including one that is in my possession that originally belonged to my great uncle.

Additional comment to David - to tell if the bell of your horn is brass under the paint, try holding a magnet to it. If it sticks, it's steel. If not, it may be brass.

Erik Johnson
Minneapolis, MN

Thanks for the helpful comments.
Jack, unfortunately I don't have the mounting bracket.
Thomas, the spring hasn't caught yet but I've only used it off the car for testing.
Erik, magnet does stick so it's steel :-(.

Just as an observation...
Of all the hand signal/klaxon/aoooga type horns I've seen here and there,I've rarely seen one that actually had a polished brass or brass belled horn.Most that have a bell like a phonograph horn are either black steel or nickel plated.Most companies must have felt plating or painting was nessessary.Probably due to the way most of these horns were intended to be mounted,exposed on the driver's door or on the body beside the driver.I have this one on my '15 T as well.It came off of my grandad's '13T he had in the 1950's.Its a "Handphone" model.It has a great deep loud tone that will startle anyone within a 20 foot radius!

Could someone post a good photo of the correct mounting of the 1915 Brassco mag horn... and/or a detailed description(s) of the screws/bolts, washers, nuts, etc used to mount the horn bracket to the car. My recollection is that the mag horn bracket mounts to the one of the firewall-to-steering-column bolts, but I can't recall exactly. Thanks! Rollie

Here's my horn in my car.The bottom bolt used for the steering support column is used for one bolt in the horn mount.The other is a bolt used only for the horn throught the wood,just below the bottom coil box bolt.I believe they are 5/16" NC bolts.I also think the mounting holes are identical to the later mag horns,as I did have one of those in this car,and it took no alterations to change it.

I should add that the horn mounting holes do not sit perfectly horizontal.The left horn mounting bolt in the photo is slightly elevated due to the clearance for the engine in the firewall profile.

Hap.........I'll try to remember to find you my body number!

Darren,

Thanks for posting and yes -- when you have a chance please check for the body number, body maker information, and if your car has the riveted firewall or not. Feel free to click on my name and it should give you my e-mail address. Sometimes I get busy and miss a posting on the forum -- and I would definitely like to have any body number information you find.

Hap 1915 Model T Touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Ford Runabout in South Carolina

Thanks for the horn photo and info Darren. That helps alot.
Also, I like your oil can mount on the head!! My original oilcan bracket has 2 screw holes in it for a 90 degree mount; any ideas as to where those were intended to be mounted(I suppose the firewall somewhere, but mine is pretty darned crowded already)? Thanks agin, Rollie

There is no standard for mounting oil cans. The usual place is so that the tip ends up to the left of the carburetor adjustment rod on the wood firewall.

Tour America,
JC

Just to add more details to the placement of the mag horns:
I had some notes someone sent me a few years back when I needed this info.I finally found it and am now passing it on to this discussion:

The magneto horn for typical 1915 mounts by sharing the lower inside steering flange mounting bolt and another mounting bolt that is 3/8" above the steering flange mounting bolt. If you draw a horizontal line thru the 2 lower steering column flange mounting bolt holes and then draw another line parallel to this line and 3/8 above it, you then can mark the location of the one remaining horn mounting bolt hole and drill it. This asssumes you have the correct horn with the correct bracket which is issentially a flat piece of stock with 3 smaller holes that mount to the horn perimeter and 2 larger holes that go the the car. The horn mounts on the engine side of the dash via these 2 larger holes. Three of the steering column flange mounting bolts were shorter than the 1 bolt that also mounts to one of the horn bracket holes.

Hey guys - here is some horn trivia. There is/was a bevel (not visible because it is behind the horn) along the edge of the dash "dog house" radius to give extra clearance for the horn "motor" housing. For a matter of a few weeks in early 1922 the very first BATTERY horns ALSO mounted to the wood dash with an offset bent bracket that was essentially the same "butterfly" shape as the regular mag horn bracket but it had a "z" bend in it that offset it for more clearance to get it away from the floorboards/dash shield. After only a few weeks the horn was moved to its more usual place with a bracket that mounted the thing to the motor via a water inlet bolt and a head bolt. Both the mag horn and the battery horn would eventually share the same mounting.

Cool - my 22 has that firewall mounting.


Vince

John,

Is this the mounting you are describing? This photo was taken when i first picked up the car - engine hadnt been touched for decades so i think it is the original mounting.

Vince

lets try again

The Bracket is NOT Ford original based on what I can see. The original bracket (Factory number 6437B) has a "Z" shaped offset bend rather than a right angle and the part that attachs to the firewall is exactly the same shape as the magneto horn bracket thus is actually arcs downward between the mounting bolts while your bracket appears to arc upward. The final proof would probably be to see if the bracket is riveted to the horn since a home brew bracket likely would be bolted to the horn rather than riveted. But it IS in the correct location. What is the engine number of your car?

Here is an original horn but unfortunately the picture is only from the side to show the shape of the offset. Notice the angle of the bend - not a right angle.

Hi Guys: John, thanks for the info on the bevel to the edge of the firewall. My horn would not fit right just boltd to the firewall and so I thought it must have been shimmed out away from the firewall with washers of spacers or something. Thanks, where else in the world but here could I have found out that info? Rollie

Is this the "Z" bracket you wanted to see? I bought it off e-bay with some other "stuff" a while back. The horn motor has two wire connections and i thought it was made as a replacement for wood firewall cars...

The other view:

John,

The engine number is 6 mil something. I cross referenced it with Mcalleys book awhile back - it was made in june of 22.

The horn is different than most - the motor is about twice as deep as what you normally see.

Vince

Mark W:

YES!!!! that is an original Ford bracket known as Factory number 6437B which is rather rare. Notice it is riveted to the horn flange. It was used for a short time in 1922 when the battery horn FIRST CAME OUT.

Horn bracket history:

6437A bracket is typical magneto horn bracket used from '15 to '22. 6437B is the offset one as pictured by Mark Weatherbee and was used for a while in '22. 6437C is the typicaly engine mounted bracket used from later '22 to '25 and mounts the horn to the motor using one water inlet bolt and one head bolt. 6437D is the typical '26-'27 bracket that mounts the horn to the motor using water inlet bolts only.

I hope to eventually get one of each of the brackets to do a pictorial on the history of the horn to post up for folks to be able to read.

The horn I showed a picture of is in fact not my horn but one that I was allowed to shoot a picture of on a swap meet field somewhere.