1911 1912 top bow lengths

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: 1911 1912 top bow lengths
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Thursday, January 03, 2013 - 08:34 pm:

I'm working on the top for my 1911 and fitting the bows into the sockets and getting close, but I think I still have some more whittling to do.

I have a couple of references with dimensions, but wanted to run the measurements by you guys first...

#1 bow (front angled) as measured from the outside to the center of the pivot is 37-1/2"

#2 (front vertical) as measured from the top to the center of the pivot is 31-1/2".

#3 (back vertical) as measured from the top to the center of the top prop nut is 33".

#4 (back angled) as measured from the top to the upper pivot is 35-1/2"

If anyone has any advice, measurements on file, or have a car to do some quick measurements, I'd appreciate it!





Thanks
: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Thursday, January 03, 2013 - 11:07 pm:

Keith,

I topped a '14 touring three months ago so I guess I will jump in this. It could be somewhat different than the '11. However, I have attached the diagram I picked up on the forum that is for a '15. Helped me a bunch. Also, there are some good threads on tops so look a few up on the search feature. I have written below on some of the things I discovered as I went along. I think the most important single thing to do is set the profile of the top.

application/pdf
TOPDIMENSIONS.pdf (125.8 k)


I did the job by myself. Used about 8 clamps and a 72" straight edge/level to set the bow alignment. The Irwin Quick Grip clamps I got at Loews. The smaller ones come in a 4-pack. They work great and they don't get tired.

You are on the right track. The '14 #2 & #3 irons are the same length from attachment to the body to the top, 23-1/2". They must be vertical when you strap down the top. The bows also set the roof line viewed from the side. #3 bow is 1-1/2" taller than #2 bow on the '14/'15. Front bow should be down and about 2 to 3 inches in front of the windshield. Your leather straps for the rear bow are attached to the top iron support, correct? Brass ring at the body and a leather strap connection on #4 bow. Don't punch the back leather straps until you have set the profile.

I put the rear curtain vertical. Royce suggested that on another thread and I like the way it looks. The angle of #4 iron and bow is dictated by the drop below the centerline profile and where you want the curtain, vertical or a little tuck back. It is important to keep the prop nuts level so you know where the roof profile is. What happens is the the top of the irons (#2 and #3 irons are 23-1/2" inch tall from the center of the prop nut on my '14) are flat when when you have it set about right.

I used a 72" long level clamped to the #3 bow to get the bows set level to be level with the prop nuts. 2x4 is 1-1/2" thick so I clamped it to #2 bow between the level and it would stand on its own. Then set #1 and #4.

I used a Milwaukee 90 degree grinder/sander to work the bows to fit the socket taper and tube crimp. I suggest to wrap them only after you are satisfied with the top profile and have placed the top deck on just to eyeball the look. You can tell if the fit is close enough. They wrap from the inside out.

Who made the top? They have built in the extra width material so you can set the roof profile. The car gets wider and taller from front to back. I have seen some cars with a flat roof line and others more like the diagram. My top would look wrong had I set the bows for a flat top. If you look at the 1909 two-lever picture that is on the forum a week or two ago, the top is not the same as the later cars. More arch and height of the front bow.

I have a set of 20" saw horses that I placed 20"x80" aluminum scaffold on. One down each side and one across the back of the car. That way you can walk and work at chest level easy all around the car. Made the horses with the metal piece kit from Loews and 2x4's. Don't forget you are on the scaffolds.. that 20" surprise step is a pistol!

It took two weekends for me to do it and it was more of a job than I thought it would be. The instructions that came with the top were very good. I suggest an air 3/8" staple gun and a good tack hammer too.

It was the first car I put a top on. I have a '25 I am getting ready to do next. It has a one man top on it. I should have taken pictures of the '14 as I was doing it. '13s and '14s have their rear windows and curtain extensions attached to the body with Murphy fasteners. They lined up with the factory locations in the original tack strip on mine.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, January 04, 2013 - 06:44 am:

None of the dimensions from a 1914 are applicable to Keith's 1912. Nothing is the same.

Keith I will measure this evening when I get home from work. The rear bow needs to be set so that a plumb line measures about 1/2" - 1" from the rear of the seat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Friday, January 04, 2013 - 09:46 am:

Royce,

Never said the '15 was the same but I'm sorry if my post misled everyone.

If you have the '13/'14 or '11/'12 dimensions, please post them. If you have the iron dimensions, please post them too. Could not find those either. It would help novices like myself a great deal.

You have a '15 touring that I saw on tour in Sept. Did you top that one? Also, do the dimensions on that diagram come anywhere close to your '15 car?

Are the '13/'14 tops the same dimension wise? Likewise, '11/'12? I looked on the forum for any measurements on the '13/'14 and couldn't find a thing. I still don't know if my irons are the correct dimension.

Thank you for your help,

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, January 04, 2013 - 09:56 am:

Keith

You posted I have a couple of references with dimensions and probably have this one, was posted earlier, and is the ref dimensions given by JV Group for top install on early T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Friday, January 04, 2013 - 11:46 pm:

Thanks for all the input so far.

The measurement from the bow to the windshield is about 2-1/2". Should it be closer?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 10:01 am:

Keith,

I like your use of the straps to hold the bows in position. I have a roll of poly webbing about 2 inches wide that I used so I could clamp the bows from below and lay the main deck on. That way you can check the overhang all the way around.

Do you have your top ?

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Steven Robbins on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 12:26 pm:

Anybody have detailed pics like these for a '26 roadster, or lead me in the right direction as I am about to do the bows and top on mine. Thanks, Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 03:01 pm:

Ken-
I do not have a top yet. I was going to be Vince... :^(

I know what the correct design is supposed to be, but have not determined if any of the "preferred suppliers" make them correctly. I have all my fasteners and hardware, even the hard to find Anzo Fasteners for snapping the side curtains between the flaps built into the edges of the top for the side curtains.

Does anybody know if Elizabeth makes them accurately for the '11/'12?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 03:34 pm:

OK Keith - finally measured mine. I believe the bows and their wood are original. When I installed the new JV Group top in 2008 there was evidence of at least two prior tops. I plugged all the old holes with tooth picks glued in place then cut flush and sanded smooth after the glue had set.

#1 bow (front angled) as measured from the outside to the center of the pivot is 36

#2 (front vertical) as measured from the top to the center of the pivot is 29-1/2".

#3 (back vertical) as measured from the top to the center of the top prop nut is 31".

#4 (back angled) as measured from the top to the upper pivot is 36"

Front overhang is about 1 1/2"





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 03:38 pm:

I should add the front overhang would look better if it were about 2" - 2 1/2". But it is the way it was when I got the car, and there is no evidence it was ever any other way. Your bows sound very tall for some reason. How did you arrive at those dimensions?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 03:39 pm:

One thing to add - the rear overhang is about the same as yours, perhaps 2" from plump line to the back of the body at center.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 04:15 pm:

Royce,
Can you give us socket measurements of your '11? The distance from the end of the sockets to the pivot points would be helpful.
Thank you


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 08:25 pm:

Randy-
My sockets measure from the open end to the center of the pivot:

#1: 29-1/2"
#2: 23-1/2"
#3: 23-1/2"
#4: 29"

-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 09:00 pm:

Keith,

Elizabeth owns Classtique. Her number is 763-786-9048. I suggest you give her a call. She made a kit for another T I have last year. Nice.

She can also guide you on bow heights. Too high and the top doesn't come down far enough and too low and it starts looking flat.

You have to add an inch to Vince's #2 and #3 bow to get the height. He measured under the bows in the drawing and they are an inch thick.

Call me if you would like, 832-622-6527, Classtique was good to work with.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 09:33 pm:

Keith and Randy,

Compared with the '14 irons I have. they are as follows for the open ends to the pivots:

#1: 24"
#2: 23-1/2"
#3: 23-1/2"
#4: 29"

Wood bows 54" wide. ('11/'12s are 56" wide).

The slant of the windshield on the '13/'14 pulls the top back so the #1 bow is shorter than the '12.

Ken in Texas


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