Early Cam Bearings Had No Babbitt?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Early Cam Bearings Had No Babbitt?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 01:56 pm:

A friend dropped by last night to have me look over a few cams he was considering for use in a rebuild. One of the cams, from a 1913 engine, had the bearings on it yet. After removing them, it was pretty obvious there was none of the usual babbitt lining in them. It's not that it wore away. The bearing bores were in pretty good shape but just plain cast iron with no babbitt overlay. The cam bearing journals look pretty good too, and not unusually worn for having been run against cast iron.

Is this how early cam bearings were made? Maybe they were aftermarket?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 03:33 pm:

All of the Kubota tractor engines run steel cams in their cast iron block. As long as you have different metals and good lubrication you can go without soft bearing materials. They marinize these engines and call them "Universal Engines" In tractors they are painted blue. When Universal marinizes them they paint them with copper paint.

Perhaps Henry found out that his splash oil system did not do the job and had to add babbitt because of his marginal lubrication system


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 03:48 pm:

I would have to disagree with that Frank, quote, 'As long as you have different metals'
Cast iron blocks running cast iron pistons and cast iron rings work just fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 03:56 pm:

cast iron in general is a great wearing surface, it has a ton of natural graphite in it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 04:14 pm:

I've seen a lot of that type of cam bearing. I think they were not used exclusively with brass era cars. Don't know when the change was made but I'd venture a guess it was mid to late teens.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indianapolis on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 05:04 pm:

Model A engines ran the cam in the block without cam bearings. Some early '34 engines did as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 05:17 pm:

Don't know about those but Iv'e seen some modern builders try bronze machined to fit cam bearings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 05:17 pm:

There was no change. Cam bearings with out babbitt are after market. They sold for about .19 cents, each. they are not even made like Fords.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 05:46 pm:

Catapillar still runs there cams that way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 06:25 pm:

The rear cam bearing was always a cast iron bushing. The replacements are bronze. A cast iron bearing on the cam should be just fine as many others have noted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 08:16 pm:

Kerry, again I was not quite complete enough . . . . . the sliding parts work well with proper lubrication. It is the like metal rotating parts that are compromised.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 08:33 pm:

Thanks Herm. You're right, they have a different overall appearance as well as not having babbitt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 09:12 am:

Look at any A block cam bearings. Dan
P.S. The 28-31 Model A :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 11:48 am:

I've got some NOS early cam bearings around here somewhere. Don't forget, that later rear cam bearings were all cast iron.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 12:13 pm:

Guys,

I'm not asking if it's a good idea or who else did it. Just curious if it was a Ford Model T thing or some aftermarket deal.

Herm says aftermarket. Richard has seen many. Hopefully Larry can add more to the story.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 12:14 pm:

By the way, thanks to all who responded so far!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Price on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 01:17 pm:

My 09 engine has a cast iron rear cam bearing. Not sure if it is original but i would venture to say it is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 10:37 am:

The early rear cam bearings were brass. I'm not sure when they changed to cast iron. As I mentioned, the fronts were cast iron, but when they made the change, I don't know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 02:54 pm:

I pulled my box of cam bearings and took a look. I have about 20 pair. They are a combination of repros I purchased over the years but didn't use for one reason or another, and others I pulled from engines I disassembled and/or restored. I kept the best I had and always banded them together so they could be installed as matched halves.
All the center bearings that are not repro are cast iron without babbitt. All the fronts except one had babbitt. That one is an NOS early front bearing that had a Ford tag wired to it when I got it. By early I mean the bearing had the notch for clearing the front lobe. The photo below shows the center bearings and the one cast front bearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 02:55 pm:

I pulled my box of cam bearings and took a look. I have about 20 pair. They are a combination of repros I purchased over the years but didn't use for one reason or another, and others I pulled from engines I disassembled and/or restored. I kept the best I had and always banded them together so they could be installed as matched halves.
All the center bearings that are not repro are cast iron without babbitt. All the fronts except one had babbitt. That one is an NOS early front bearing that had a Ford tag wired to it when I got it. By early I mean the bearing had the notch for clearing the front lobe. The photo below shows the center bearings and the one cast front bearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 04:39 pm:

Richard,


Wow, thanks for the effort of looking those up. Very interesting indeed. The center bearing I found looked just like yours. The front bearing, though I can't see the outside of yours, seemed somewhat different. Looks like maybe they were a Ford supplied item. Don't know why I never saw one before.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 09:16 pm:

Cam bearings used in '09-'10 used two snap rings each. I have a mid '10 engine that way. The early parts books with the large drawings make it quite clear the difference between early and later bearings. I have never found a cam bearing with out babbitt.


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