I just saw September 1909 Model T # 10274 for sale at Model T Haven. Needs a lot of work, it was probably a 1910 model year car.
The model year change is October in 1909.
Bruce said model year change was August, 1 - cars from #8101 were called 1910 models by Ford:
"but common usage today is to call the cars built within calendar year 1909 “1909” models."
Looks like a nice project
The number 10276 looks to be actually built in 1909 but could be considered 1910 as it was built after Aug 1.
This is from Bruce's book:
ENGINE SERIAL NUMBERS:14,162 to 34,901 approx. calendar year. 8,101 to 31,500 approx. model year. (Ford called cars built after July 1909 “1910” cars but they were not changed from the 1909 models. The 1910 model year ran from August 1, 1909 to September 30, 1910.)
I agree it looks like a great start, the buyer will have to find the correct springs.
Interesting adjustable valve lifters.
So, when cars like these come up for sale for boo-coo bucks, needing total restoration, what do they finally sell for? Or for that matter, do the 1910-1912 that advertise $35,000 - $50,000, what do they finally sell for? Just curious.
Good point Robert. This car is way overpriced. If it were a fully restored Stynoski winner, it might sell for around $50K. But, it's a $30K restoration away from being ready to vie for that award. If it were an all original "driver", it would be worth the asking price as a preservation project for somebody. But, it's clearly a collection of scavenged bits and repop parts thrown together in an attempt to make a salable car.
They sell for the agreed upon price between the buyer and seller Robert. Talk to Mark if you are interested. It sure looks like a good car.
I have to say I fail to see why one would think this car is over priced at 34,500 . What should the car go for 20,000? If that is a 1909 with all original and some restored parts. Are not the parts alone with more than 20 thousand.? The engine, the body, the brass , the rear end and chassis, the restored coil box, the transmission and all the rare parts associated with a 1909 are all valuable in their own right.
A 1912 touring sold a while back for 51,700 for example , a good restoration but not a sytnoski winner. So I would think this car restored to a stynoski level would be worth more than that.
Nevertheless, shouldn’t this be a fair price for this car unrestored? It just seems that T owners appear to denigrate their own investment, generally speaking. I don’t know the person who is selling this car but it would seem very much a fair price.
The price of restoring it is another issue which is inherent in the restoration of any car. Did we not see just the body, nothing else, of a 1911 torpedo sell for almost 18 thousand dollars on eBay?
I think its a nice car and we should all hope this guy or woman gets what he is asking. It will be good for him and us…
I did a lot of research before I bought the 1909 that was on this forum a year ago. What I found out was if you want a complete and real (and by real I mean a car that is mainly complete with title and matching serial numbers on the engine and ID plate on the seat and also with it's original body) 1909 Model T Touring it is not going to be cheap. If you start adding up all the pieces that would have to be scavenged to make up this engine your looking at $15,000.00. The bottom line is it's a good start on an original 1909 touring at something close to that price. An all restored original will sell for upwards of $75.000.00+. A 75% reproduction 25% original 1909 will only go around $40,-$45,000.00. A nicely restored original but missing things like correct rear axle and driveshaft, front axle and spindles will bring only around $45,-$55,000.00.
It is almost pointless for me to say much. All I can do anymore is dream about buying something like that. If I had the money to even consider it, I would be looking for a NRS.
However, One must remember that we should never expect to get out of a car what we put into one. And if you think antique automobiles are an expensive hobby, try boats. It would not be easy to get anything much better in a "pre-'10" for any less than that. You may be able to to assemble one, if you are willing to finagle a bit more of it.
One should also remember that this one is not a "true '09". There are enough people that know much more than I do that can pick apart a '09 or '10 to tell you within about a month of when it should have been built and any part on it that is more than a couple months off. In part, for this reason, the value of '09s and '10s goes up fast the earlier they are.
General breakdowns include, but not limited to,
1, Two pedal/two lever with water pump. Earliest '09.
2, Three pedal/one lever with water pump. Early '09.
3, Earliest no water pump cars about April '09 if I recall correctly. Other changes were taking place and the cars were becoming more reliable and more easily restored. Also easier to identify.
4, The last of the "true '09s would be about July and August of '09.
6, Mid '10s.
7, Late '10.
This car is in the middle place of those two years.
Through those two years, many dozens of minor details were changed along with dozens of other major changes. To list all those changes, and when they occurred, would take pages of text. But those changes matter to many collectors, and they know them. They want a car earlier than "so and so" has and will pay more for a car only a few months earlier.
If the car is technically a '10, it is worth considerably less than it would be if it had been built six months earlier (correctness and condition being equal).
Another important consideration. If you have the money to be in the market for a car like that. And you want to consider it. Unless you don't mind blowing lots of money on a mistake, you should try to learn enough about them to really know what you are looking at. Or make very good friends with some people that know them a lot better than I do. Like Rob, or Royce.
That of course is true with antique cars in general. Just worse with the early stuff.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
How goes it ?
I am in Tennessee this evening.
Just still looking for some missing parts for the 1909. A original coil box is the main thing that I am looking for, but if I can't find one then I'll go for the new reproduction one.
How have you been? I almost bid on an engine out in CA when you were out there but it went for more than I would pay. Make sure you stop by when your in the neighborhood.
Glad you are doing well ....
I will stop by when I am in the area