New Houk Quick Change Wire Wheel Hubs Soon Available!

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: New Houk Quick Change Wire Wheel Hubs Soon Available!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 04:10 pm:

I know a lot of people out there have wire wheels, but have no hubs to put them on your car. my friend and I recently made a brand new set of hubs for my Houk Quick Change Wire Wheels at his machine shop and they came out awesome! We are going to make these if we get enough interest we will be making them and offering them for sale. My dad has a restoration shop here in Bridgeport, CT (Dragone Classic Motorcars) and we are licensed to sell them through our business. Any interest out there? Im going to post a bunch of photos on this thread. If you or anyone else is interested please let me know. The caps are brass so they can be made to be polished brass for your brass era T or nickel plated for a later car. Also They can be made to accept an early style brake drum or a 1926/1927 brake drum (pictured is a 26/27 drum). These are an exact copy of an original Houk hub for a Model T. Let Me know what everyone thinks, as they will be offered for sale soon, and the more interest there is, the lesser the cost and the lesser the price. Also the wheel pictured is one of my Houk wire wheels and is the type of wheel that accepts this hub.












Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 04:26 pm:

Alex: "NICE JOB" I'm not in the market for a set just now. But I would think most people will also need the wrench.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 04:29 pm:

Very nice, wish I could find a set.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 05:01 pm:

Nicholas, thanks, and yes we will be making a wrench as well. and Jack, we are making these and will be available to buy eventually. We just want interest from people. And if there is really a lot of interest, we can make the actual center hub of the wheel and you can buy rims and have them spoked up to you liking. But as of right now we only made hubs and caps, but if you have the wheels now you can just put these on your car and go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Robison on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 05:21 pm:

Looks like the front hubs are designed to use ball bearings. Why not tapered roller bearings?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 05:25 pm:

Mike, those are the original bearings. We replaced those with modern sealed roller bearings. If you look at the second photo, you can see the new bearings at the top next to the originals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 05:27 pm:

3rd photo not second, but heres a picture anyway, the modern bearings are on top.


*


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Robison on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 05:31 pm:

Those look to be sealed ball bearings. A tapered roller takes side thrust and wears longer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Robison on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 05:36 pm:

BTW those hubs look great!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 06:03 pm:

Mike Thanks! The reason why I used this style bearing as opposed to the model T type tapered roller bearings is because this is what originally was used in these hubs. Now, this system is superior to the tapered type bearings that you describe. The cone spacer that you see above is what locks the inner bearing races when the hub is bolted up to the spindle. This eliminates the need for adjustment that is needed like in the model T tapered bearings. This system was used in many more expensive cars of the period like Mercer, Simplex and Stutz. Even the Vanderbuilt Cup Locomobile race car that we have here in our shop has this type of bearing. These aftermarket hubs were designed this way, so why re-invent the way it was designed? They designed it this way because it was an improvement on the tapered bearings used in a T. Also another plus is these modern sealed flat type bearings do not have to be greased, and they are not extremely expensive, so if ever replacement is needed, they can be replaced without having to give an arm and a leg like the Timken roller bearings offered for stock T wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 06:05 pm:

Boy that's a GREAT Job, nice work. I have a #4 HOUCK 30 x 3 1/2 wire wheel for sale presently excellent center, needs rerimmed and respoked danuser88@ktis.net


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 06:22 pm:

John, Thanks! To add on to what I was saying about the bearings, this was really just another system for front bearings. Tapered roller bearings were also used on expensive cars like Rolls Royce etc., I just did not want to change the design of the original hub.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 08:19 pm:

Alex,

They look great! And I suspect it will be a great help to anyone with that style of Houk center wheel. My initial guess and it is only a guess, the person that already had two or three of the hubs and the wheel centers will be thrilled to be able to purchase the reproduction hub and other parts to complete their set.

Also I read at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/28084.html they mention that Houk may have been purchased by another manufacture. And it maybe possible that the same hub will work for more than just the Houk wheel? Ant the

It appears that the front hub has the sleeve that fits over the standard Ford front spindle. I wonder why the Houk went with that design? Would it allow them to use a different sleeve and have the same hub work on different cars?

Again beautiful looking hubs!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 10:48 pm:

Hap, Thanks! Yes If someone only had a couple of hubs and needed only the rears or the fronts to complete their set I would most definetly be happy to sell them what they need. I would sell the caps seperatly as well. Also you bring up the fact that these hubs may work in similar pin drive wheels, and you are correct. The Houk hubs should work in Dayton wheels and Pasco wheels as well. They have very minor differences, so if for some reason these hubs did not tighten down all the way if they were put into a dayton wheel the wheel could be slightly modified to accept this hub perfectly. I know there is a raised ring of metal around the drive pin holes which varies in position on different makes of wheels. The Houks do not have the raised ring of metal orund the drive pin holes, daytons have it on the front side, and pascos have it on the rear side. So if this raised ring around the drive pin holes is dealt with, these hubs should work pretty well. Also, that sleeve is a spacer, because im sure as you know, on a T spindle there is a "no mans land" that really does nothing in between the rear and front bearings. The spacer or "sleeve" puts pressure on both the front and rear inner races of the bearings and locks them when the hub is tightened down. It is just another system to set up bearings for a hub such as this. But, as you said it could be so these could be fit to larger cars. Really all you would have to do is change the ID of that tapered sleeve and also get bearings that have a different ID and they could probably be used on a larger, or a car of similar size with different sized spindles. I know Houk had different sized hubs all together hence the different numbers: Houk #3, #4, #5 etc..But thanks for the compliments, and if you know anyone who would be interested I would greatly appreciate it if you could spread the word about these hubs. The quality of them is really good because I made them for my own car, not just to sell. If these become popular, I might look into makeing the center hub of the wheel itself and selling those as well. Then the buyer can buy whatever size rim he or she wants and spoke it and have a beautiful set of HOUk wire wheels for their model T. I mean these wheels are absolutely beautiful. Within the next week or so I will be nickel plating the caps and doing the final touches on the hubs so I will post more pics of them when they are completely finished for my car. Please get the word out to your friends. When I am ready to sell these things I will post on here and I will post an ad on the MTFCA Swap site as well. Also as I said before the caps can be nickel plated or polished brass for any year model T. I will be making a wrench for them as well, most likely out of some sort of plastic so it doesnt chew up the caps. Anymore comments on these would be great!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Peterson on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 10:57 pm:

Those make me want to get busy and find wheels to be able to put those on my 12 roadster project. Just to have an excuse to have a set of those beautiful hubs!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Peterson on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 11:00 pm:

Oh yea, an I think the price of Houk wheel hubs and parts just went up!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 07:05 am:

Nice work. Are these #3 hubs? I have #4, adapted from a heavier car, but with the same clincher size. I also have extra #4 wheels.

Do you end up with the same wheel track as the wood wheel?






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 10:39 am:

Rick, I am not 100% sure if these are #3 or #4. The original front hub that I have fit right on a T spindle and the wheel it came out of is a 30 x 3 1/2 clincher wheel (the black one pictured above). The exact cap that was on this hub was broken inside the wheel (it was aluminum which is very odd) and so I was unable to determine if it was a #3 or #4 hub as they are usually marked on the top side of the cap (that was gone). I have about 6 or 7 original caps that are brass and I will have to check if they were marked #3 or #4. Also I forgot to mention that we made these exactly like the originals so there are left and right hand threads for each specific side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 10:59 am:

The #4 takes a 2 3/4 octal wench or socket. My first socket was bought new for a truck for about $25. It was stamped steel 3/4" drive. It worked ok, but I found a forged flat one later that fits better in the toolbox.

Seems like I got them mail order, but don't find anything on Mcmaster.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 11:04 am:

I will be making a wrench for these hubs. I will post a picture on here when we do, which should be soon. I believe I am going to have it made out of some sort of plastic so it doesnt chew up the caps like the cast steel original wrench did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 11:21 am:

Oh and Rick, I am pretty sure that the wheel ends up being in the same place as an original T wood wheel. I would have to measure to confirm this. But it might not because the offset of the wheel itself might be different, but if i recall, when I had the wheel on my car it looked to be in the same place as the wood wheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim moore on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 11:50 am:

Alex,

Do you know if the caps will also fit Buffalo hubs?

Tim Moore


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 01:38 pm:

Alex
having done some parts reproduction I know how much work these things can be. You have done a great job and I commend you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Pharis on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 01:53 pm:

Tim if you are looking for new Buffalo caps, the Houk caps have the wrong thread. I have available new wing type knock off caps for #3 Buffalo's in both bronze and aluminum if you are interested.

#3 Buffalo


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 01:57 pm:

kevin, i like those! can you send me an email? tmorsher1 @ neo.rr.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 02:24 pm:

Alex, it doesn't look like you have the locking levers. They are brass, springloaded, with angular edge that engages a multi-slotted ring in the hub such that they ratchet going on, and require the wench to disengage them for removal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim moore on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 03:41 pm:

PM sent but if you don't get it---- mercuryspeedster@hotmail.com or mooreti@msu.edu

Thanks,

Tim Moore


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 03:52 pm:

Rick, I do have them, I just havnt put them in. like I said before, these will be finished this week and I will post the pictures of the finished product. Also up in the pictures I initially posted I have one of the levers there that was one of my extras. And I have the springs that go inside the caps, there is one pictured above as well. Those are basically thick piano wire. Also, Kevin those caps are really cool, but they look like they are more suited for a Jaguar rather than an old model T haha. Anyway attached I have a comparison of Buffalo, Hayes and Dayton caps. All very similar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 05:33 pm:

Alex you need to bring some of that product to Speedy Bill Smith's Speedster function in June, with the crowd of speedster fans there most run Wire wheels, you know the Dayton Hubs and caps are also available new, by Jack Putnam in Ohio he also makes the spare tire carriers. Over the last 25 yrs I've pieced together about 10 different sets of accy wire wheels, and sometimes I've had to sell them, to make my payments, but I think I've sold down now to where I'll use what's left, I'm very Happy to see your work as it is much needed, Happy T-ing


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 06:04 pm:

John, Thanks very much! I may consider going out to that event. I know I am definelty going to have these out at Hershey in the fall. I have a pretty good plan for these. I would like to market and sell these hubs as well as the center hub of the wheel itself! If that becomes available then whoever buys the whole setup can go to Coker Tire (they sell ne rims) and buy either new clincher rims or new snap ring rims and have the wheels spoked. If this is very successful I also have Buffalo Hubs for a Model T and I would also make a line for those as well. The very main goal of this as well is to make these affordable (with the best quality as you see here) for the average guy for his model T, If I can achieve this then I believe this will be successful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Pharis on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 06:54 pm:

Alex, I wish you good luck in your project, you seem to do very nice work. When you get around to doing your Buffalo parts feel free to look me up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 08:50 pm:

Kevin, those are very nice! I really like knock-offs. I will send you pictures of the original Buffalo hubs that I have. Maybe you can identify what I have. Also, when I get around to those we can do something together. I have some really great things in mind for these wheels. But, first things first and that is focusing on these awesome Houk Hubs and wheels. I really want to make this a good product to start off with and get into and offer other brand accessory wire wheel hubs, caps and wheel centers later. These are great accessories because they reach out to a wide variety of T guys with brass era touring cars and speedsters all the way to guys with late 20's early 30's "Gow Jobs". Accessory wire wheels are the next best thing after OHV/OHC heads and I am excited to offer these exact duplicates of the originals to other Model T guys for there cars. Yes there are those Mclaren wire wheels that bolt up to wood wheel hubs, and im not saying anything bad about those because they are nice, but they are not the real thing. With my idea, you wont be able to tell that they are new.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 10:44 pm:

I need about 2-3 Dayton centers or 30 x 3 1/2 wheels to finish my set of pin drives, I have several centers w/out upset to front or the rear and one is restored w/new rim and spokes but I don't know what hubs to use w/them or caps, I've been told they will fit Dayton pin drive hubs, but the pc of the article you show above w/the hubcaps says they will go but not tighten down, and I have not tried them. I'm building a 26 rdster/pickup presently and will use dental drive Dayton 19 in snap ring wheels which I purchased almost 20 years ago w/26-7 dental drive hubs and knock-off caps in them. Its like a big snipe hunt finding parts, pcs, caps, wrenches etc for these sets. Afordaholic johnd


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 11:03 pm:

John, I would be happy to help you. If youd like, send me photos of your dayton wheels and any other parts that you have that are incomplete. The only reason why the Houk hubs would not work in your wheels is because there should be a raised metal ring around your pin drive holes either on the inside or outside. If that ring is eliminated my hubs should work. Now this problem can be completely eliminated if I produce the wheel center that works with this hub. Then you would be all set to go. if youd like, shoot me an email, my email is: alexander.dragone@student.fairfield.edu and we can discuss this further and possibly figure out a solution for you


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 10:53 am:

To keep this thread going here are some more pics of the hubs. As I said earlier, this week I will be posting pics of the hubs when they are 100% complete. I will be nickel plating these for the car I am putting them on, but as I said they can be nickel or brass.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 10:53 am:

To keep this thread going here are some more pics of the hubs. As I said earlier, this week I will be posting pics of the hubs when they are 100% complete. I will be nickel plating these for the car I am putting them on, but as I said they can be nickel or brass.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 11:03 am:

Also, here is a question for guys that are knowledgeable about these accessory wheels: what kind of finish was originally used on the hubs themselves? were they left bare metal and painted? or did they have some sort of plating on them? You see the pins through the wheels,so should the pins be the same color as the wheel? My friend wanted to throw some nickel plating on the hubs, but I think that they should be painted. Any thoughts on this? How should I offer them to the public? Just bare steel and let the buyer paint them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 12:41 pm:

Alex
I would consider nickel plating the pins and leave the rest unpainted for the customer. I think the plated pins would look good for a long time. If they were going on my car I would consider powder coating the hubs (with plated pins). I am assuming the pins are threaded into the hubs. When they were ready to use I would "stake" the threads a bit to make sure the pins stayed in place.
All the best on a great looking product. I don't own any of these wheels. I have made some "Phelps" hubcaps for myself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 02:45 pm:

Les did you finally figure out what the PHELPS caps looked like for the wheels, and hubs I sold you!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 03:03 pm:

John
Here is my best guess. I don't believe any survived as they were made from the early zinc diecast (pot metal) before they had realized the problems of trace lead contamination


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John W. Oder - Houston, Texas on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 05:41 pm:

I have a 66 spoke Houk with 3 9/16" I.D. where the cap fits and (6) 11/16" pin holes on a 6 1/4" circle. I'd like to know what size hub it is. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 09:08 pm:

Les they look GREAT, I'm pleased you got the set as you are one of the few who can make or come up w/parts that are no longer manufactured, or even around for a pattern.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Brown on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 08:12 am:

Alex
Great looking products! It is good to see your interest reproducing some of the harder to find parts, like the hubs and caps. I would like to get a new set of the winged (knockoff) caps for my Dayton 20 inch clincher wheels. For the time being I have to use the more common Dayton hex nuts and they just don't look as good with these wheels.
Keep up the good work and let us know your progress!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P. Steele, Montana on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 05:34 pm:

Alex the hubs look great. Any idea if these would work with 19 inch Daytons? John Danuser I have a pair of good 30 X 3 1/2 wheels that I think are Dayton pin drive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 05:42 pm:

Randy thanks! These hubs really did come out beautiful. I will be posting pictures this week of them when they are 100% finished (I am nickel plating the caps and putting the locking tabs in them). I will also post pictures of them in the wheels. Also, I plan to get into making different types of hubs and caps including buffalo if these hubs become successful. If I made buffalo products (as I have some original hubs to copy) I would make caps that look identical to the picture (from Multi Aldrich's roadster) in the link that is attached. As this is my favorite style cap for Buffalo wheels, I just need to get my hands on one so my friend can copy it exactly. But, if I cannot find one my machinist friend is extremely talented and can, if we have to, make it from the pictures we have. I possibly might make Budd wire wheel hubs as well. But as of right now, the Houks are my main focus.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=871126&d=12635755 62


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 06:56 pm:

John Steele I sent you a P.M. via your heading name johnd


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 07:21 pm:

John Steele, send me a photo of your dayton wheels. I believe these will work just fine in the dayton wheels, you will just have to eliminate the steel rings around the pin drive holes in order for these to tighten up. Other than that they should work. But like I said, send me a message with pictures and we can discuss this further.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 07:57 pm:

John Oder, your pin circle and pin diameters match my #4 Houks.

Somebody told me once that the early Houks had no reinforcement around the pin holes, then they added the circular reinforcement or lip reinforcement because the holes were getting wallered out. I don't know which would have come first, but all three types seem to be interchangeable on my hubs.

All my #4 Houks are for 30x3.5 clinchers. #5 Houks I've seen, like on a 1919 Franklin, have split rims.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 09:31 pm:

Rick I actually have a set of #4 Houks that are split rim! I am not sure what they came off of though, but my #5 houks are much larger, this can be seen especially in the size of the cap. As for the ring around the drive pin holes, my 30 x 3 1/2 wheels (the black one pictured in the initial posting) has these rings, but on the outside. I believe the daytons have them on the inside which would not work with these hubs. But, if they are on the outside then my hubs should work fine. But Rick you are correct, it seems as though the earlier houks did not have these "reinforcing" rings around the drive pin holes, these should work for the daytons.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 09:42 pm:

Alex Dayton T wire wheels have the metal upset like a small circle on the outside the hub.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 10:07 pm:

John Dauser, do they look similar to the black wheel attached? This is a picture of one of my 30 x 3 1/2 Houk wheels. If so, they should work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 11:01 pm:

All the Houcks have a seen have a couple of ( ) type push outs to the outside not a continous circle around each pin hole? The Daytons have a small circle outward around each pin hole, the PASCO"S have the raised portion to the inside of the centers, as Ive Had SPRANGERS (demontable's), DISTEEL, PASCO"S, HOUCKS # 4 hubs front w/caps and some odd wheels, Budd (Overland), Buffalo's, PHELPS, and I still have 2-3 sets laid back for my use.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 11:18 pm:

John, my larger Houks that I have for a Stutz which I believe are #5, have the () shape around the holes. The 30 x 3 1/2 have a continuous circle. The wheel pictured above is Houk and it has the continuous circles around the holes (have to look close because my picture is not that great in terms of seeing the raised rings around the holes).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, February 06, 2013 - 12:45 am:

How do you tell them apart? For all I know, I may have 4 different brands on my car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Wednesday, February 06, 2013 - 01:03 am:

I beleive Daytons only have 48 spokes and the Houks have 60. But the design of the wheels could have changed as they got newer. But the wheels on the T above look like they are for a larger car. Also the design of the teeth that are inside the wheel for the locking tab on the hubcap are different between brands. Houks seem to have a solid flat tooth design made out of brass, and Daytons have a ring inside there with slots in it for the locking tab to catch when the cap is tightened up. Are the rims on the wheels on the yellow car above 30 x 3 1/2? I know for a fact that my wheels were sold for Model T's. Possibly the center of the wheels was a bit different for larger cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Brown on Wednesday, February 06, 2013 - 08:06 am:


Alex,
Not all Daytons are 48 spoke. My 30x3.5 have 48 spokes but the 20" clinchers have 60 spokes and use the same pin drive hubs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Brown on Wednesday, February 06, 2013 - 08:19 am:

Here is a picture of the 30X3.5 Dayton with 48 spokes, for another reference


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Wednesday, February 06, 2013 - 09:59 am:

Randy, they all look so similar! Do you have a picture of one of your hubs? or possibly a picture of what the cap looks like off of a wheel? I would like to see what the locking teeth for the cap look like inside the center of the wheel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Wednesday, February 06, 2013 - 10:01 am:

Oh, and im speaking in terms of 30 x 3.5 wheels. All the 30 x 3.5 daytons I have seen have 48 spokes and all the 30 x 3.5 Houks have 60 spokes like mine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, February 06, 2013 - 10:29 am:

Again, all mine are #4 size on 30x3.5 clinchers. Some of my wheels have the slotted ring inside to catch the locking tab; others don't. The locking tab engages the spoke ends on those without the slotted ring. The slotted ring is removable.

The ad above says the Daytons are made under license; a Houk license? The earliest ad I have seen for wire wheels is 1913, with a Barney Oldfield testimonial for Houks after winning the Los Angeles to Phoenix race.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Brown on Wednesday, February 06, 2013 - 11:09 am:

Alex,
The Dayton 26X3 wheels are listed on page 66 of "Model T Ford in Speed and Sport" (very tiny print) at a cost of $75 per set.
Send me a private email so we can talk about possibly reproducing the winged caps, as I only have one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Brown on Wednesday, February 06, 2013 - 11:13 am:

More Dayton pin drive hubs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, February 06, 2013 - 11:55 am:

For those trying to put together a set of #4, the late Elmer, the junkyard parts guy in Nebr, told me you there are a lot more front hubs around than rears, as front axles were commonly used for trailers in later years. The #4 front hub can hogged out to slip over the Ford rear hub.

Since Daytons were built under license, it appears they are identical to Houks, save for maybe the number of spokes and some details.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mc Ginnis Dearborn, MI on Wednesday, February 06, 2013 - 12:11 pm:

Hey Alex- If you could just make matching Houck wheel centers then we could buy new rims and spokes and make a completely new set of Houck wire wheels,caps hubs!!!! That would be a much more desirable option than the "faux" knock off wire wheels that are currently being made in Michigan.
Congratulations on such a great project. The workmanship looks wonderful and it is great to see such a quality product.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Brown on Wednesday, February 06, 2013 - 02:12 pm:

Alex,
The Dayton winged cap does not have the spring loaded clip like the hex caps have. Further, the 26x3 wheels don't have the retainer ring like the 30x3.5 wheels have.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Wightman on Thursday, February 07, 2013 - 09:44 am:

I need a set of those hubs and caps too, as I have 5 wheels. Thanks Rollie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John W. Oder - Houston, Texas on Thursday, February 07, 2013 - 11:08 am:

Alex if you want to make some 52mm Rudge Withworth hubs I can send pdf of cad drawings. No pins, 88 splines instead. :-)

nicewheel1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, February 07, 2013 - 12:04 pm:

John
Looks great. I have slightly larger Rudge Whitworth on my 1913 Russell


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John W. Oder - Houston, Texas on Thursday, February 07, 2013 - 12:53 pm:

Thanks Les - you sure do have to have the patience of Job to get a set of such things operational! :-)

Just setting up now to drill (and internally countersink) the two sets of 14 holes in each of my extended outer rings that turn an ordinary intermediate length hub shell into an early "long" hub shell - 5.84" between rear of flange to front face of outer ring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Thursday, February 07, 2013 - 05:33 pm:

John I believe 52 mm Rudge wheel centers are the same as XK 120 Jaguar according to my dad, but that looks really cool! We just sold a 1924 Lancia Lambda and it had Rudge wire wheels on it, but larger, I think they were like 54mm or 56mm. Anyway, I am excited to show everyone our finished Houk Hubs! They will post pictures soon! most likely in a few days.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John W. Oder - Houston, Texas on Thursday, February 07, 2013 - 08:06 pm:

"I believe 52 mm Rudge wheel centers are the same as XK 120 Jaguar according to my dad"

True for basic size, spline count etc. What makes the variation is the hub shell length. Lates are very short and the older ones can be really long, such as my photo above.

They also came in a number of spoke count choices. The one in the above photo is 70, but I also have a set of long 52mm hub shells that are 50 spoke. I'll probably make them into 70 spoke versions.

The 52mm is more or less meaningless - it represents the largest O.D. outer bearing that could be used.:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, February 07, 2013 - 09:16 pm:

I look forward to your making hubs and nuts for #4, as I have a couple extra sets of wheels to sell.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Thursday, February 07, 2013 - 11:21 pm:

John, I did not know that, that is very interesting! I have a bunch of early Rudge wheel centers, mabye I can send you some photos of them and you can identify them for me? Also, Rick, I believe these hubs are #4 size. The caps I used to copy for the new ones are #4 and work in my wheels and on the Hubs. But, what is the difference between #4 and #3 hubs and caps? I have not gotten a straight answer from anyone. There is no question these were originally made for a Model T, and I am assuming they are #4 because the #4 caps work on them, and they are what I copied.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Thursday, February 07, 2013 - 11:27 pm:

Also forgot to mention that I have, what I believe to be a set of #4 houk hubs off of a larger car that still fit in my T wheels, but are still larger and heavier. The Houk hub that fits my T (the one I copied) is much smaller. any thoughts on this? Mabye #4 caps fit #3's?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Thursday, February 07, 2013 - 11:31 pm:

And when I say the larger hubs fit my T wheels, I mean the pins go in but the hub is too large to go all the way into my 30 X 3.5 wheels that the smaller houk hub came out of.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, February 07, 2013 - 11:56 pm:

Sounds like it's time for some dimensional drawings for the different wheels. I have only #4 with the larger hubs, and I don't know anybody for sure who has a bare #3.

Any volunteers?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John W. Oder - Houston, Texas on Friday, February 08, 2013 - 07:25 am:

I can do something with the photos, Alex, if you have time to add some info, like spline count and overall length. If too much trouble to count splines, just give me I.D. where splines are. All 52mm RWs will have 88 splines and just barely pass a 2 3/4" dia. thru the spline I.D.
You have my regular email now.

Ralph, I thank you for the earlier confirmation that my Houk pins and pin circle match yours, but lets go further on hub dimensions. I posted that the bore where the cap fit is about 3 9/16" and I will also get back flange O.D. and over all hub length. This one is a 20" lock ring style and someone scrawled Franklin on it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jonathan Bodine on Friday, February 08, 2013 - 07:52 am:

Pricing? Please advise.

Best regards,
Jonathan Bodine


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John W. Oder - Houston, Texas on Friday, February 08, 2013 - 02:23 pm:

"but lets go further on hub dimensions"

Here are a few more dimensions on this 66 spoke Houk, the pins and pin circle of which matches Ralph's:

Back flange dia. about 8 11/16"
Hub shell length back flange face to front about 5.3"
Hub shell mat'l about .230" thick measured at back flange.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Friday, February 08, 2013 - 03:54 pm:

Jonathan Bodine,

I am currently doing the final touches on the first set, so in the next few days (most likely tuesday or wednesday of next week) I will post pictures of the hubs finished and the pricing. But I dont want to put prices before showing the final product. I will also post an add on the MTFCA Swap site, so keep following this thread for the next few days. But I assure you that the quality of these hubs is fantastic! Also, John Oder, thanks for those dimensions. I will check my hubs when I get a chance and let you know. I am currently home, but I have a Houk #4 that seems to be larger than my Model T Hub. I will measure that today and get back to you. I will measure the T hubs which are at my friends machine shop on monday.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Tuesday, February 12, 2013 - 04:56 pm:

Ok guys, I have the pricing figured out for these Hubs and caps and we are also going to make the center of the wheel so you can buy the rims and spokes new and have them put together. If you are interested please email me. My email address is: alexander.dragone@student.fairfield.edu

Also, keep watching this thread because I will be posting pictures of everything finished soon! (in a few days). If you email me I will also personally send you photos. I apologize for the delay, but the snow storm we just had here in CT has slowed everything up. Also whenever I can get those dimensions for you John Oder I will, the Machine shop is currently snowed in, but tomorrow we should be back to getting these hubs 100% finished and I will take some measurements for you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Tuesday, February 12, 2013 - 05:15 pm:

Also since I have decided to make the center of the wheels themselves, if someone buys the hubs caps and the wheel centers, all they have to do is pick the rims they want and have them spoked and they have a perfect set of wheels and hubs. My dads restoration shop is also capable to rim and spoke the wheels as well if that person wanted to pay us to do it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, February 12, 2013 - 05:38 pm:

Nice to have more rare parts available, should I win the lottery :-)

On a side note - how much does accessory wire wheels typically weigh including hubs?
Once I compared a 21" wood wheel to a 26/27 Ford wire wheel + hub on a bathroom scale and they both weighed about the same (can't remember excactly, but I think they weighed about 25 lbs without tire each)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jared Buckert on Tuesday, February 12, 2013 - 08:38 pm:

Alex,

So if someone wanted to order a complete set of wheels from you, would they have to contact a third party to get rims and spokes, or do you sell those at your shop as well? Looks like you're going to be drowning in business once the word gets out. Good luck!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Tuesday, February 12, 2013 - 11:59 pm:

Roger, I will have to check for you. I have never weighed the wheels. Also, Jared, Thanks! I have not gotten that far. I know a few guys that make the rims and spokes, so it is a possibility that I may be able to supply the rims and spokes as well. But, I know there are places that supply rims such as Coker Tire, and what I know for sure is that we are very capable of putting together the wheels if that is what the customer wants.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jonathan Bodine on Wednesday, February 13, 2013 - 08:33 am:

A single McLaren wire wheel without tire, tube, flap or hub weighs twenty pounds on my scale.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,
Jonathan Bodine


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack McMullen on Saturday, March 16, 2013 - 05:37 pm:

Afternoon Alex,
Will there be a set available for the 1929 Hudson Super Six Sedan? Please Please??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Saturday, March 16, 2013 - 10:31 pm:

Jack what size wheel does your Hudson take, as I have some off wheels DAYTON"S I think 18 in 7 pin snap style rims wire wheels Have 5 ,2 still have tires up, 2 w/out one needs respoked and rerimmed and as I remember there are a couple of snap rings gone 1,000.00 plus UPS or truck freight or pick them up here in Fulton Mo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By clayton swanson on Sunday, March 17, 2013 - 01:13 am:

i am short one 48 spoke dayton wheel to make a set, any one got an extra for sale? rim doesnt matter as i will respoke anyway. thanks, clayt3@hotmail.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack McMullen on Sunday, March 17, 2013 - 01:31 pm:

Morning John,
My Hudson takes 19" wheels


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Wednesday, April 03, 2013 - 04:04 pm:

Sorry everyone, Ive been very busy and havnt had time to finish up on this project. I am getting back to it soon, so I will keep everyone posted. Also Jack, I am also a Hudson person as I have a 1931 Hudson 8 Broughm. Im pretty sure a 1929 hudson wire wheel hub is a completely different design than what we have here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Kerndt on Sunday, April 07, 2013 - 09:25 pm:

Alex, You are to be commended. Your Hubs and Caps are just awesome and I am anxious to see prices and availability. Keep up the good work as you have a big audience waiting for more information. Thanks, Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Kerndt on Sunday, April 07, 2013 - 09:28 pm:

Bump


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jared Buckert on Monday, April 08, 2013 - 05:10 pm:

I'm still interested in how this venture turns out. Waiting eagerly for the results.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Dragone on Tuesday, April 09, 2013 - 09:01 pm:

Bill and Jared, I will be posting details soon. Sorry for the wait. Everything is finished, but my dad is haveing a big car auction in May so my efforts have been focused on that. I will post some pics soon and I am still playing with the numbers trying to get the costs down so I can charge less. I am not happy with how much I have to charge for the hubs. Mabye everyone here can help me out while you wait. How much would you think would be a reasonable amount to charge? This of course is for 1 individual hub, 1 individual hub cap, or a price for the whole set of 4 with caps included. I will not be insulted so dont be affraid to tell me what you think they are worth. This would greatly help me getting this project off the ground. I know what they cost me to make, I just need to know what people will pay. Again I will not be insulted in any way. Lets here some thoughts on this. Thanks!


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