What is the easiest way to tell the difference between 14 top bows and 15-16 top bows?

Brendan,

In early model year 1914 the rear window could be rolled up. That feature was eliminated some time before the '15 model year. After that the rear curtain was simply tacked to the back of the body and a metal strip was screwed over the whole rear of the top.

The tops are interchangeable between 1913, 14, 15, 16, and 17. The square profile top bows appeared about 1918.

Here's an early 14 top:




1915:

1916:

"In early model year 1914 the rear window could be rolled up. That feature was eliminated some time before the '15 model year." -Royce

Just for reference here, my parents' '14 had the roll-up back window. It has an August 1914 casting date, and was delivered new to my great-grandparents in September. (I'm not by the car or the original bill-of-sale right now to give exact dates, but can get them if it would help anyone to research this change)

Sorry to be slightly off-topic here, as this has nothing to do with the bows, but we're all here to learn, and the transition from '14 to '15 open cars is something I'd like to know more about.

Several other things about tops -

The 1913 tops were supplied by several different makers, as were the bodies themselves. So the details of the top, and the top installation, vary greatly in 1913. The common sense fasteners were supplied by several makers (Murpphy was one) and the nesting pin / socket design was different and widely variable.

Here is a typical 1913 top:


By 1917 many or all of the tops were being made by Ford, so design, hardware and installation techniques was very much standardized.

The rear curtain window design changed in 1917 to a three pane style. Like this:

For Derek,

You mentioned, “Just for reference here, my parents' '14 had the roll-up back window. It has an August 1914 casting date, and was delivered new to my great-grandparents in September. (I'm not by the car or the original bill-of-sale right now to give exact dates, but can get them if it would help anyone to research this change)”

Sorry to be slightly off-topic here, as this has nothing to do with the bows, but we're all here to learn, and the transition from '14 to '15 open cars is something I'd like to know more about.”

Yes, we would love to have additional information about your parent’s 1914. If you know if it was covered in one of the “Vintage Ford” or “Model T Times” if you can point us to the year we can locate it from there. A car like that can add a lot of details. Not necessarily how all the cars would have been done at that time, as the different assembly plants often did things slightly differently. And the 1914 to 1915 transition was one of the times they did a lot of things differently at different plants. Some produced the 1915 style model year cars while others continued to produce the 1914 style cars until maybe as late as Apr 1915. [ref: Bruce (RIP) http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1915-16H.htm second paragraph down.] Your parent’s car could also give a “data point” for how long from the engine assembly record date (based on the engine number) to the sales date. The actual production of the car would be somewhere in between those two dates as there would be shipping time for the engine and body or the assembled car or both.

Several of us are very interested in that time frame and many others do not care. But for those that are interested – please let us know when the car was ordered, when it was delivered, what date the engine records have the serial number listed [pages 508-510 Bruce’s book “Model T Ford” or his CD with the daily listing or the monthly listing is at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm ] Also if you could have your parents look for a body number and body maker letter – that could add additional information. Please see the Forum posting “Home for the Holidays” at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html . For some of the bodies (Beaudett, Wilson, Fisher,) they usually have a date code in the body number.

And note for the historical part – the sales paper is useful even without the car still existing. I will have the date the car was ordered and when it was delivered along with the car number (not much help for USA cars after it quit agreeing with the engine serial number during 1911) and the motor number [Ford’s term – not mine].

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

Derek,

That your top had the roll up window makes sense, and of course for open body styles (as Hap mentions) the 1915 style body was slowly phased in beginning in December 1914 at Highland Park. So your car was built many months prior to the 1915 body style.

The metal trim on the back of late 1914 and all 1915 - 17 tops looks like this:

The top irons between a 13 through 17 may be the same, but the front bow over the windshield is not. The 14 goes out farther than the later cars. This is because of the windshield placement on the body.
I ran into this problem with my 14.

Dan,

I pulled the '14 and the '15 out to take pictures to illustrate your point which is of course correct. It was a nice day for a drive too!

The '14 windshield is about 4" forward of the '15 location. As a result the front bow is longer. The other bows and the sockets are all the same.










This picture shows the original metal trim strip that covers the tacks holding the top to the rear of the body.

Anyone know where to get, or what to use to make that metal strip?

Royce, Glad you were able to drive your cars today. It will be at least another month before we are out driving our T's, because of snow and salt on the roads.

Royce, I too, am trying to figure out the difference between '14 and '15 top bows. I thought the sockets were the same, but now I'm thinking there has got to be a little difference between them. If they shortened the front bow in '15 they would have had to raise the stowing bracket on bow #2 in order for the top to fold evenly.
Thanks for posting the pictures, being able to compare a '14 and a '15 in the same picture is nice.

Mike, those strips are out there at swaps and once in awhile on T Bay. Be patient and keep your eyes open. You can drive and enjoy your car while you do.

Mike -- I have one of those strips I bought to put on my '15 Touring. Since I sold the car, I no longer need it. I can take it to Chickasha or Petit Jean if you're interested.

Randy Driscoll -

The wooden bow is shorter. Metal sockets and nesting pins identical.

Thanks Mike,
I'll be at Petit Jean--please hold on to it for me and I'll get it then. Is your coupelet going to be delivered to Chicksha so you can finish it for Petit Jean?

Royce, did you make oversized rear windows for your 14 touring ?

Bottom Line Up Front: I believe the 1914 top assemblies were different from the 1915 top assemblies. I am hoping this discussion and others can help discover some of those differences so we can do a better job of fitting the more correct parts to our cars – if that is something we enjoy doing. Also so they fit better and maybe even have fewer leaks.

Additional comments:

Great questions and probably we will not find a “mathematically correct answer that can be proved correct for all cases.” Why? Because Ford had multiple people supplying tops for USA 1914 production [ref tag that came with the new 1914 below]:





Note that even those two tags list a few different top companies – i.e. “Am J” is on the top one only and “Rands” is on the bottom one only. [From the “Vintage Ford” May-Jun 1971 pg 5-11; also in one of the recent “Vintage Fords” but I didn’t write that information. Same car – many years later. The Motor Number is
495676; the Car Number is 462926 page 7, May – Jun 1971]

And it might be possible that the new 1915s were not all the same [that is speculation on my part. But Ford often made minor changes to the product in the first few days to months as they found better and less expensive ways to produce the item and Ford may or may not have continued to purchase tops or top bows from out side sources as he built his own production capability up.]. And of course Canada and English production could have been different also – but we will avoid the non-USA question for now unless someone with an interest in that area chimes in. From the photos the 1915 Canadian and 1915 USA tops look identical – but so does a 1917 and 1922 Model T Touring to most folks until they start looking at them closer.

For Royce,

Thank you for you inputs and great photos! I am always trying to better document sources and of course the earlier the sources usually the better – except where they were wrong to begin with. But I would like to be able to say where I obtained the information. Would you please clarify your source(s) for your comments:

“In early model year 1914 the rear window could be rolled up. That feature was eliminated some time before the '15 model year. After that the rear curtain was simply tacked to the back of the body and a metal strip was screwed over the whole rear of the top.

As well as your comment:
“The tops are interchangeable between 1913, 14, 15, 16, and 17. The square profile top bows appeared about 1918.” [note that there is a difference in overhang of the 1914 vs 1915 front bow was noted above.]

It may be from your own experience – i.e. having put a 1915 top on a 1914 etc. I know that the front ball bearings, races, and for the front wheels interchange between the 1906-1908 N,R,S, SR, and T because I did it when I was a teenager. (We put the T wheels on the S Runabout.) They are not the correct size for the N & S Runabouts that usually used a 28 x 3 inch clincher; the T spokes are thicker and the N,R,S, & SR flanges are smaller than the T [5 inch vs 5 1/2 and later 6 inch flanges]– but they function ok on the light 1906-1908 N,R,S & SR. Or maybe you know it because it is listed in the Ford Price List of Parts as the same part. Which about 10 years ago I ran across the documentation for the front roller bearings and cones being the same in the N, R, S, SR and T wheels. That confirmed what I had already seen as a teenager. And of course if you look in the Lang’s catalog they will tell you that the T bearing will fit the N,R,S,& SR front hubs (need a thinner washer for the roller bearings). I was wondering if you arrived at your information from personal experience, second hand word of mouth, or documentation and if so what kind, or a combination of those?

For everyone:

First a look at the Lang’s 2012 paper edition catalog shows the top bow irons for the 1913-1914 touring are listed as different from the top bow irons for the 1915-1917 touring. Part number 7940E2 http://www.modeltford.com/item/7940E2.aspx and the later one 1940E3 http://www.modeltford.com/item/7940E3.aspx . But for the Roadster top irons the 1913-17 are listed as the same part number 7940A5 http://www.modeltford.com/item/7940A5.aspx .

For the wooden steam bent bows for the oval top irons Lang’s has the wooden touring top bows the same 1913-1917 http://www.modeltford.com/item/7940F2.aspx and the Roadster wooden top bows the same for 1913-1917.

Of course those could be inaccurate (we all know that happens sometimes) but it gives us something else to look into. While Snyder’s uses the same dates and adds that the 1913-1914 wooden touring top bows are ¾ inch different from the1915-1917 touring top bows. [and you cut/whittle/sand them to fit your top irons]. I did not see any top irons for the Ts at Snyder’s on line catalog.

I took a look at Bruce’s (RIP) “Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia” CDs the “Price List of Parts section [available at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/333725.html?1357665853
And highly recommended for your Model T library.]. I am still going through that. But it does not show the 1914 top as the same as the 1915 and some of the 1914 top parts are not the same as the 1915. It is not a “slam dunk – easy to read” answer. But I have been trying to sort through it. More to follow – when I find some additional time to review and make a little more sense out of it.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

David,

Both the windows in the tops above were made to match the size of an original 1914 or 1915 top. Both windows are identical in shape and size. Both of the tops were stitched and installed on the cars by my father with some help on my part. The '15 top was made circa 1970 using Model A grained vinyl material. The top on the '14 was made circa 1992 using a material that closely approximated the original 1914 top fabric. In each case an original top was being used as a pattern but in very poor condition.

Hap,

My comments come from experience and examination of original unrestored tops and pictures of new Model T's of the years in question. Please note that I don't claim that a 1914 set of top sockets is identical to 1915, or 1916 or 1913 for that matter - they might be in some cases, but as I noted many times above there were multiple suppliers, and the top assemblies were simplified as time went on to standardize parts.

Many / most of the parts are dimensionally identical and interchangeable with regard to general length, position of pins, diameter, etc. The 1913 era top bow socket parts are cruder, hand fabricated, and harder to locate because fewer were made and fewer survive. To assemble a authentic looking set for 1913 is a daunting task because so many differences abound from one supplier to the next. The 1917 sockets are much more common, and all are nearly identical from one 1917 car to the next 1917.

I would be able to spot a set of 1917 sockets on a 1913 T, but would be hard pressed to explain the difference or tell the difference between a set of 1917 sockets and a 1916 set. The same would be true if you were trying to detect a "correct" 1914 top assembly versus 1915 - Ford would have used what showed up, provided it fit properly. No doubt many body / top suppliers used widely different fabrication practices and suppliers for the hardware.

If you look in the tops section of the encyclopedia there are some statements that I disagree with based on evidence I have seen. For example Bruce states that 1916 was the last year for Murphy type fasteners on the side curtains. Yet I have a very late 1917 torpedo which came from its original owner, with all top and side curtains intact and original having Murphy type (not brand) fasteners to attach the side curtains. We had to replace the original top in the 1980's as it had shrunk too much to be useful but the original side curtains are still in excellent shape. Here's a picture from 1951 the day dad brought it home:



The top sockets sold by Lang's are functional but don't closely resemble originals for any of the years mentioned. I don't know of the source for the dimensions supplied in Lang's description and would hesitate to label them as being correct based on the appearance of the actual parts. Have you seen these in person Hap? I don't think they can be used as evidence to claim anything with regard to how a Model T came from the factory. You can not tell these are reproductions from 20 feet away. You can tell from closer scrutiny.

Royce,

Thank you for clarifying your sources were “…from experience and examination of original unrestored tops and pictures of new Model T's of the years in question.” The more I try to discover about the early Fords (1903-1927 in my case) the more I believe we need more than any single source of data to make a more informed decision. For example in the Sep 21, 1918 records at the Ford Archives is the statement, “"Last metric engines produced." [Note that referred to the spark plug threads not the other nuts and bolts etc.] But Bruce (RIP) follows that with “Not true, for metric engines continued at least until 1920, at which time they were no longer noted on the production records, but may have still been built. [ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc18.htm ]

In the case of the top bows, no I have not seen the reproductions that Lang’s sells. But I was not referencing them as accurate reproductions but to note they did not say one part number of top irons fit all the tourings from 1913-1917 but rather two different part numbers – implying two different sets of top bows. And for the 1913-1917 runabouts a singe set was listed. And I commented, “Of course those [top irons] could be inaccurate (we all know that happens sometimes) but it gives us something else to look into.” I believe we are very fortunate that many of vendor catalogs are becoming more and more helpful as well as accurate when describing which parts fit which years and which parts are period correct for certain years. And the catalogs I am familiar with for the most part use the original Ford price list of parts numbering system which makes them very easy to cross reference to the Bruce’s “Price List of Parts” database. As an example Lang’s has listed the fan brackets and notes one for 1909-1911; a second one for 1911-1916; and a third one 1917-25. It helps me realize that there was more than one design even though they all were fan brackets. And no they are not perfect listings – for example under the rear axle nut that holds the hub to the rear axle, they list it for the 1909-1927 Model Ts. And of course the straight axle earlier cars did not use an axle nut to hold on the hub. But again for me, I have found the vendor catalogs helpful for pointing out additional items to look into. And in some cases such as the wooden hood shelves for the N,R,S, & SR cars, although I have never seen them in person either, I know from Trent’s recommendations as well as the note in the printed catalog, that they are a made to Ford’s original factory drawings and are excellent quality [ http://www.modeltford.com/item/4056-7NRS.aspx ]

And concerning Bruce’s Encyclopedia, I know he would not want us to accept it blindly, but to continue to make discoveries and corrections to the information. He shared in the preface, “The information presented here should not be considered the last word on the subject. Just as the previous books have superseded each other, this too is destined for obsolescence. It is also extremely important to remember that all Fords of a given year were not exactly the same. Modifications were made at the factory at Highland Park that were not necessarily made on cars assembled at the branches, and vise-versa. Even cars made at the same plant could (and did) vary from one to the next. Variations in the design of various components of the car, due to the varying suppliers of some of the parts, must also be considered. Keep in mind a comment made by a restorer some years ago: “How can we restore these things correctly when Ford never made them correctly?” [ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/intro.htm ]
So I look forward to working with you and others to help build on what Bruce and so many others have already accumulated. For example Bruce’s statement “1916 was the last year for Murphy fasteners for the side curtains.” If we can improve on the accuracy of that or the clarity of that information, by all means I think we should. In this case, my current theory is he meant it literally, as in the “Murphy” fasteners that were produced by the “Murphy Company” and had the little “M” in a circle trade mark on them were not used after 1916. [see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/206894.html?1303576029 for a thread discussing Murphy vs Common Sense fasteners (including patent information) that look about the same to many of us except for the “M” in the circle or in some cases a “.” in a circle. And see Lang’s at: http://www.modeltford.com/item/MUR1.aspx for the “M” in the circle which may or may not be an excellent reproduction but is used for illustration purposes. Compared to the other similar brands of fasteners that did not have that “M” in a circle logo. See Lang’s http://www.modeltford.com/item/43006AK.aspx I suspect that the terms Murphy fastener and Common Sense fastener are similar to Coke and Cola – many folks use them interchangeably.

So if anyone has some additional information on why Bruce stated “1916 was the last year for Murphy fasteners for the side curtains.” Please let us know. Also if you find any “Murphy” brand fasteners the ones with the “M” in a circle on the 1917 and later cars and you believe it was originally on the car – please let us know. One theory (ok initial guess) is that Murphy brand fasteners cost more than the Common Sense brand and so Ford went with the lower bidder. Another “longer shot” would be did the Murphy brand fasteners come in nickel as well as brass? Ford was moving away from the brass. Or perhaps like the Dodges – Ford was upset over something and no longer ordered parts from Murphy when their current contract ran out.

Photos of the original Rip Van Winkle car on page 264 of his book shows the “twist type” fitting, but it is not clear enough to see if there is an “M” in a circle or a “.” in a circle or no trademark at all. And I cannot tell if they are brass or nickel.

For most folks this is not a level of detail they care about. But I enjoy trying to help make things more accurate when possible about our cars. Thank you all for your help.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

I think this makes a good case for better articles in the VF as discussed in the recent thread. A fairly simple question without an answer. The 1916 parts book list the 15-16 by itself.

Sorry Royce, my ask was not to pick but merely to see if it was larger than normal... its original, got that.

David.