Mark what year does these fit on?
Waay Cool - Mark !!! Looks as though you scored a great pattern, if one wanted to get some cast up.
I was thinking about the pattern idea today when I took the photos. They are both (spring and brake) a friends and wanted to share. As far as what year, I guess any with the correct front bracing for the axle. They were after market.
Here's an original ad scanned by Bob McDonald from Jim Kenealys book MODEL T FORD Authentic Accessories:
Would that bracket work just as well with internally expanding brakes?
Kep, You've got the same idea that I have. I like the mechanical linkage at the pivot point.
What size drum does it take? I am going to make some 10" cast iron drums to use with the McNerney front brakes I am copying. They use a 10" x 1 1/4" brake band and so the same casting might work for yours. Cast iron drums work WAY better than a steel drum for stopping.
If you need help on the patterns and to find a really good foundry that will be helpful, contact me off list.
I have a set of one design of cable operated mechanical front brakes on my '27 roadster. They work very nice. I am working on a variation of hydraulic drum brakes for another car. A simpler install. I have all the parts made except for the drums for 4 sets of McNerney's.
The Big 4 look like a nice design although quite a few patterns. The good news is I think they are not "lefts and rights" which make the project a little easier.
Gene and Kep
I don't think that internally expanding is going to be a option unless you go with a REALLY big drum. I would guess it would need to be at least 16" to get it all to fit inside. It would certainly stop nice. Probably cast the drum with spokes at it might almost look nice too.
I would like to see a picture of the inside of the operating mechanism to see how they made it pull in on the brake band as the mechanism rotates. It is always interesting to me to see how other people have solved these issues
Looking at all that front end geometry, why did Henry put that two inch space between the spokes and the kingpins?
It wasn't just Henry. They wanted to use simple "hinge pin" type tie rod ends so the king pins also have to be vertical and parallel. Ok, they slope backwards for caster but they don't have "king pin" inclination like the Model A and all other cars with front brakes got (which also now needed a ball type tie rod end).
The problem with putting front brakes on a stock T front axle is not particularly the strength of the axle (which you and I know is fine), or the wishbone, which is quite easily remedied. The real problem is solving the issue associated with braking hard with one front wheel on dry pavement and one front wheel having poor traction. You have dealt with it using a '37 Ford steering box. I dealt with it on my '27 by totally reworking the front axle geometry to resemble that of a model A (no I didn't use a A front axle). As another way to deal with it of course I am making a few Ross Cam and Lever steering boxes (no they are not ready for sale so don't ask).
There are some other innovative things that were tried in the T era.
Werner I. Staaf
Assignor to Samuel Stern
Fore Wheel Brake Attachment for Automobiles
Patent number: 1599849
Filing date: Oct 29, 1923
Issue date: Sep 14, 1926
Biggest part of the problem would be, that is all he has as shown. I think it uses the standard 10 inch drums. I will take a few photos in the next two days and post them.
No, Les, I'm talking about the construction of the hub. Why couldn't it be made so the spokes are 1.5 - 2" inboard from the present location? That would reduce brake steer by a bunch.
BTW, Stefan Schaller, who is lurking on here from Switzerland, can't get his Ts licensed without 4-wheel brakes.
That is about all had to start with for this McNerney brake project.
If you need help let me know.
Some how I think you might get into a steering "stability" problem. I'm thinking you might get "shimmy" all the time. Think about what shopping cart casters are like. I can't prove this, just a suspicion of mine.
Thanks Art for the patent info. it reads:
The principle of this invention is to provide
an attachment which may be used with automobiles for the purpose of applying breaks to both fore wheels EXCEPT while the automobiles are operating on curves, at which times the breaks are applied to the inner wheels only. That's interesting.
The pictures Mark show are of the FIND Of A LIFETIME.
To have those cast and used as they were in the day they were first used would keep your T authentic and would be legal to use in the Santa Clara Valley Speedster Endurance Run.
A cast iron drum would probably still keep them authentic and greatly improve them.
So if you put model T rear brake drums on the front wheels would the spokes still contact the hub in the center? Or would you have to machine the front hubs lightly to make the drums bolt on further inboard somewhere?
The patent drawing appears to be a different version. The advertisement and parts seem to have the "clamping action" of the bands directly at the bottom, while the patent drawing has the "clamping action" not directly below the wheel steering axis.
Took a few more photos today. Not really much more to add with these. Sorry about some, my camera is about done for. It would take capitol and having the rest of the parts to make it worth while to even start.
Thank you for the additional information. Front brakes for the T are a fascination of mine!
Would using a Model A front axle assembly be the simplest way to get front brakes on a Model T? Could you take one step further and use 1939 hydraulic brakes with the Model A axle?.
Model A front axle assy is far too heavy for a T. You would be better with something like a postwar Anglia, if you could find one.
That's what I used when I made this trailer in 1963:
A relative of one member of our club has a 26 roadster with a V8 60 engine and driveline and Model A front axle. It didn't seem to heavy to me.
A T should have a T block, a T rear axle/differential assembly and a T front axle.
If you are going to deviate from the T axle then get a tubular hot rod axle made to fit '37 & later spindles and just put '39-'48 juice brakes on it. Or stay '37-38 with good mechanicals.
I had an A front axle and wishbone kicking around for a few years. It was god-awful heavy compared to T parts. I have no idea what Model A brakes weigh, but they're monstrous.
What all this really comes down to is MONEY!!. Will the market place pay up to $1,500.00 for a bolt on front brake assembly? I don't need to sell hundreds, but a few dozen might make it worth while to invest in the production tooling (patterns etc.). What I put on my '27 certainly works the best as it involves a reworked T front axle with tilted king pins, new spindles made of 4340 (just like Henry used for his), and 2000 lb trailer brake components inside all new hub/drums that fit nicely inside T wire wheels (or can bolt to wood wheels. I have all the engineering done and have now tested them for a couple of years. If you were at the "Cowboys and Coal mines tour" the car was there. No new steering box required as no "brake torque" back to the steering with the "modernized" steering geometry.
Where the kingpins cross the tire is not the whole story, Les. Uneven traction on the front wheels will still drag the front end in the direction of the greatest traction. It's just not so pronounced as with vertical kingpins. I drove 3 Greatraces and lots of other miles with vertical kingpins, front brakes and 5:1 Ford steering.
2001 Greatrace yearbook. . The Psalm was not my idea.