1911-12 Ford racer, 410 cubic inch engine. I want one :-)

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: 1911-12 Ford racer, 410 cubic inch engine. I want one :-)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, March 22, 2013 - 09:21 pm:

Well, the "mystery" is solved. Frank Kulick was driving a Ford and winning the large motor class races with a 410 cu in racer, and I couldn't find a photo of it. Turns out, we have photos after all.

According to these excerpt from a story in the June 1912 Motor Age, the racer has a Model T frame that is reinforced, along with aluminum engine and Bosch mag. The car used 30x3 1/2 Firestone tires.




This is the same racer that Frank Kulick drove beating Bob Burman and the "Blitzen Benz" along with several other victories.



The results from the 1911 race:



A photo of Frank Kulick driving on the hill climb, with one of the Fords (I don't know if it's the smaller engine racer or the big one).



I'm still amazed that a T frame (even reinforced) could handle the horsepower and weight, but apparently it could. I suspect this is the racer Ford tried to enter in the 1913 Indianapolis 500 and was told he would have to add 1,000 lbs to qualify (and appears to end Ford Motor Company's participation in speed contests for years to come).

What a ride........... be a great car to show up in Lincoln at the speedster reunion with!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, March 22, 2013 - 09:46 pm:

That picture is of Kulick in the 228.3 cubic inch 4 cylinder car Rob.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Friday, March 22, 2013 - 09:48 pm:

Rob,

I think if you go back to the pic of the set-back Livingston style pic with the demountables, you 'might' be on to it. I realize that early photos had perspective issues, but it sure looks to me that the engine is underslung on the frame, and 'something' doesn't look right about the pan and the length perspective.

You 'might' want to see if you can turn up someone in the engine department at Dearborn, or try BFM. Ford never threw away experimental engines...Greenfield sold a few off in the 60's and then found a slew in the early 70's buried in one of the Greenfield buildings and reportedly auctioned a bunch of them off too...but I have also 'heard' that a full inventory was taken as to details before disposal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, March 22, 2013 - 09:59 pm:

Royce, I've seen several of the period photos, and don't know if there is an easy way to tell the difference. I thought the hood alone would need to be higher to cover such a large engine.

George, your probably right. It seems to me that things have to be "stacked" together pretty well to maintain the appearance of a standard T racer while hiding a huge engine.

Sure would surprise all the T guys if you showed up at the local track with the "special Ford".

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, March 22, 2013 - 10:00 pm:

Note this thread is a continuation of the discussion from: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/349303.html?1364003903

Respectfully linked,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, March 22, 2013 - 10:08 pm:

From Bruce’s (RIP) “Model T Ford” page 497 and repeated again on page 505. Information from the shipping document.

Jul 23, 1911 engine number 62,200 “Stock Car Racer built for Kulick”

Maybe we should order a copy and see what other information the shipping document has on that car? For $20 (last time I checked) we can request the original shipping document (also referred to as “production record”)from the Benson Ford Archives for car (engine number) 62,200. See: http://www.thehenryford.org/research/productionRecords.aspx and you can order any shipping document between engine serial number 1,119 to 70,920. The shipping invoice is available from the Benson Ford archives for that serial number. Or if someone is in that area they could look at it for free and let us know what other details are listed.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, March 22, 2013 - 10:19 pm:

Hap,

Good idea. I wonder if the "special" racer would have gone through shipping? The block, sleeves, mag, frame and probably many other things would have been unique.

Anyway, good idea. I'm surprised there isn't more information about this racer.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, March 22, 2013 - 10:26 pm:

"...Aluminum cylinders with steel casings."

The Franklin aircraft engines were built that way. Notice it's not en bloc like the T engine; more like the K and N engines.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, March 22, 2013 - 10:32 pm:

So, is there a "lot more engine" in the first racer, compared with the second? The first is a close up of the racer dubbed 999-II that went 102 mph on the ice following the footsteps of 999.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, March 22, 2013 - 10:34 pm:

Look at the tires...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, March 22, 2013 - 11:04 pm:

Another pic from the 1911 hill climb ("Automobile Topics"). This Ford doesn't have the V radiator or slim gas tank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, March 23, 2013 - 05:58 am:

Great picture of the Alonquin hill racer. All looks to be Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, March 23, 2013 - 06:45 am:

Is this where the magneto is mounted? The "pipe" going forward may carry the plug wires.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, March 23, 2013 - 02:31 pm:

Camera perspective can often lead you astray. But I have been looking at these photos for a couple days now (this thread and others). The more I look at this car, the more all the relative perspectives of the motor look all wrong. I, also, had wondered if that tube(?) above the motor was for ignition wires, but didn't connect it to the "mailbox". Interesting! The intake manifold is also very interesting. I believe that is the carburetor hiding behind the frame rail, however cannot see enough of it to be sure. That darkness below the bulk of the intake manifold and above what would be the lower intake pipe(?), could it be a shadow? (I don't think so) More likely soot from the exhaust short stacks in their at speed wind flow zone. Just a thought.
It looks as though the pan may have a sling under the flywheel. It also appears to have something extra below the pan under the block that may be added oil for the rods.
The relative size of the head looks all wrong for a T engine. Based against both the side of the pan and the frame rail, the block looks to be a few inches taller than a standard T block? Perhaps a few inches longer also?
I cannot make out clearly what is or isn't spark plugs in this photo?
On other threads, it has been stated that the car on display in a museum is not the original? (Do I remember that wrong?) Does the original of this car still exist as far as anyone knows?
So my big question. Could this have been one of the elusive post-K sixes or an extra large four cylinder?
Regardless, that is one incredible machine!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, March 23, 2013 - 05:20 pm:

Wayne,

I believe this is probably the 410.8 cubic inch engine. If so, it should have a "taller" and deeper engine/pan. Also, the information we have says it had an aluminum block with steel sleeves (paraphrasing).

At first, I didn't think that large of engine could "hide" within a T frame and hood, but apparently it did.

I'll contact the Museum of Speed folks in Lincoln Monday and see if they have any information about this machine. They have some of the experimental engines that Ford sold off years ago, and may have something similar, or know more about it.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, March 24, 2013 - 05:13 pm:

A photo from The Henry Ford of 999-II


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Wednesday, March 27, 2013 - 12:22 pm:

Rob,
Thanks for that photo of 999-II. I guess I don't have that in my collection.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, March 27, 2013 - 01:06 pm:

Looks like a scaled up version of a T engine, probably the 410.8 as Rob suggests. Pretty cool, I've seen this photo many times and did not catch on to the larger engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Wednesday, March 27, 2013 - 01:25 pm:

Well I see 4 spark plugs not 6 so it must be a big 4 cylinder. And the intake is serving 2 cylinders each so there is no way that can be a 6. Thanks, Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, March 27, 2013 - 01:50 pm:

Nobody suggested it was a 6. In fact, in Rob's images above, the 410 is identified as having 4 cylinders.

It's also stated as having a 2:1 rear end ratio, WOW.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, March 27, 2013 - 02:16 pm:

The 4 7/8" bore would imply that the engine would only have to be about 4-5" longer than a T (and maybe not even that). The extra height for the 5 1/2" stroke is certainly available in the pictures. The crank would need to lowered at least 3/4" and probably a bit more would be better. Liners in aluminum cylinders makes a lot of sense for a "one off" engine.
If you look at the colour picture you can see that the "part line" of the block to pan is in line with the U joint and substantially below the frame rail. You can also see the 4 dip trays just above the wishbone.
Using 30x3 1/2 tires makes a lot of sense to preserve the rear axle and transmission. Better to spin the tires than break parts. With the 2-1 gears it would be going 100 mph at about 1350 rpm

How badly to you want a copy to drive Rob?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Wednesday, March 27, 2013 - 02:44 pm:

Rob
I know this is off the topic
but there is a belt buckle on e bay that looks like a Model K
just thought you might be interested
190771877410 item #
Bob


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