Model T boat engine

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Model T boat engine
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ake Osterdahl on Sunday, March 24, 2013 - 02:26 am:

Is there anyone who can tell me more about T Ford boat engine? this looks like 1926 1927 engine. Brochure or otherwise in writing, would be interesting.







Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ake Osterdahl on Sunday, March 24, 2013 - 02:28 am:

Aluminum casing removed



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, March 24, 2013 - 04:36 am:

All I can tell you is that in previous discussions about unusual serial numbers, it has been mentioned that Ford did sell engines for various industrial uses. I have seen a few incomplete engines, parts of such engines (such as special pans), and a number of original photos of such engines. However, that is one of the most complete and best looking engines of that type I have ever seen still existing.
I see some rust removed from the serial number embossment. Is there a serial number? Is it an eight digit number only like a 1926/27 model T would have had or some other configuration?
Thank you, Ake, for posting these photos! It is a neat engine and should probably be preserved for what it is.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ex trooper on Sunday, March 24, 2013 - 06:24 am:

Seawater cooling pump and magneto driven off generator gear, with water discharge into exhaust pipe... Conn rod inspection covers to adjust rods... One piece oil pan lubing flywheel, crankcase, and transmission as a unit. There may or may not be a clutch in the gear box; just jam it into gear at idle. Theres another support bearing missing on the hand crank which looks like a direct constant drive unit... stay clear when running! Probably off an old fishing boat. troop


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, March 24, 2013 - 10:09 am:

So this things not a one-off? The marine parts are manufactured? That spinning crank could have used a little more thought. Unless it just flipped the chain off once running.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ex trooper on Sunday, March 24, 2013 - 10:37 am:

Id guess thats a KERMATH or a BUDA conversion. They ultimately did engines for the U.S.Navy... Not withstanding, the stuff thats missing would lead me to believe that with the amount that the sprocket is off the shaft and the extra hole behind it, it probably took a Model T starter crab to engage it. Its a 1:1 ratio and I couldnt imagine that twister spinning at 1500 rpm, if not even for balancing purposes... troop

[IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/24b4ymr.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/5zoaxd.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/3305wl1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/2rmv49i.jpg[/IMG]

The last one has a bit more "conventional" starter attached


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Sunday, March 24, 2013 - 10:47 am:

Just thinking -

Obviously it worked, but wouldn't putting the flywheel on the "front" of the engine and then the load on the "rear" stress the crankshaft in a manner it was not designed to stand up to?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Sunday, March 24, 2013 - 12:13 pm:

Henry,
Retaining the flywheel in original location while moving the out put to the "nose" of the engine was a common practice with marine conversions. The crankshaft is the same size thruout so there is no problem with transmitting developed torque that direction. Only problem would be the shock loads and they are very low driving a propeller in water. Driving car wheels on land certainly is a problem, Ford Maxwell and all the others found that in a car the flywheel should be between the engine and the load.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ex trooper on Sunday, March 24, 2013 - 12:15 pm:

If there was a mag on it maybe, especially with gravity dragging the assembly toward the front (rear) with the incline of the mount and the raising of the bow when underway. Then theres also the issue of propeller thrust pushing the shaft back "forward" as well. A trade off maybe?? Those old displacement hulled fishing boats probably only ran continuous at 800-1200 rpm. I think .050" of wear over 20 years wouldve been acceptable. troop


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek Brookshire, Texas on Sunday, March 24, 2013 - 01:00 pm:

Here are some pictures posted a few years back on a marine conversion.
m1
m2
m3
m4
m5


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Sunday, March 24, 2013 - 01:36 pm:

Charlie B,
I suspect the chain hub on the flywheel has an over running clutch in it. That would allow the handcrank to turn the engine but the engine cannot make the chain and handcrank go around.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, March 24, 2013 - 01:39 pm:

Layden: after all that conversion work I can't see that handle spinning. You're probably right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, March 24, 2013 - 02:07 pm:

Looks like an engine I saw last year in a town close by.. It was later advertised at the swedish equivalent to Craigslist. Did you buy it, Åke?
I didn't see if there was any text on any of the castings? Maybe it's a (now) rare Swedish made marine conversion?
Most old marine engines has been destroyed by salt water cooling.

This one didn't need any magnets on the flywheel, looks like it used a high tension magneto driven by the camshaft.


(Hej Åke, den liknar en motor jag såg hos Fritz Wallis i Älmhult.. Han annonserade ut den på Blocket senare, köpte du den?
Finns det någon text på den? Det är kanske en svensktillverkad marinkonvertering?)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Hughes on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 05:44 am:

Hi I was reading this with interest and joined. I have just acquired this Ford marine engine which has been in a barn for along time and was trying to find out about and identify possible other parts in barn. Ive found the magneto and a few other bits. Any information would be great. I think its a T .
Regards Andy









Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 06:08 am:

Welcome to the affliction,
Indeed the engine is model T, 26/27 since it has a couple of bolts attaching the transmission cover, the "hogshead", to the rear of the engine block. Not much changed from auto use it seems except a water pump and the elevated crank. Does it also have a high tension magneto for ignition? Originally your engine had a flywheel magneto giving low tension AC current to four coils in a coil box attached to the top bolts. The high tension magneto may have been considered easier to maintain. Looks like the hogshead is a RHD variant, makes it harder to find a replacement, but the Tuckett brothers may be able to help you? http://tuckettbrothers.co.uk/

Hopefully it hasn't run as much in salt water to have made it rusted irreparable.. lift the top and check the water passages for rust scale. I've seen some marine engine cylinders that were cracked in the water jackets from expanding rust..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 06:14 am:

Uh, my next to last sentence should have read "Lift the head" (mixed in a bit of swenglish there, sorry :-) )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Hughes on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 06:49 am:

Hi Roger, thanks for the information. When you say 26/27 is that a model variant or a year 1926/1927. I'll get a pic of the magneto as I'm not that sure, it is large and swiss made. Do i need to look for the coil box? any idea what they look like, The shed i got it from has 1000's of items in it ! lol. I'm slowly working my way through them. It might be rhd as i'm in the UK and thank you for the lead on the T brothers, I think they were on TV not long ago and was looking for them. I paid 100 quid (160 euros) for it, and the chap said he originally bought for a tractor by mistake, so he left it in the barn, that was 50 odd years ago. He said you will need help with that it needs babbit rieming with I know babbit is a name for soft metal and rieming is to burn bearing on, other than that I just didn't want nice old things to go to a scrapman and then to china.... Thank You


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Hughes on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 07:07 am:

Just spoke with tuckers, he will come and have a look when as it appears I have some car parts as well :-) Regards Andy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 07:13 am:

The model T was made from 1909 to 1927 with a number of changes to all details, but the general chassis and engine design about the same. Your 1926 or 1927 style engine is one of the last, made from the autumn of 1925 onwards. In the US spare engines were made up until 1941, so it might be even later than '27, but I don't think they made spare engines in the UK for more than a few years after T production stopped.

£100 (=119 euros today) is about what I also think it's worth, depending on useability of internal parts..

If you have a swiss high tension magneto, you don't need the coil box. You need intake and exhaust manifolds and a carburetor, but look around, it may lie around there somewhere?

Hopefully the babbitt bearings can be reused by pulling a few shims and refitting the bearings with timesaver lapping compound http://www.newmantools.com/lapping/time.htm , but if the babbitt is cracked or worn out, or if the crank shaft needs turning, then you may have to repour the bearings - that's a more costly affair, but there ought to be quite a few that can do it in the UK :-)

Another thing you need is the fourth main, a babbitt bearing supporting the transmission output shaft:
http://www.modeltford.com/item/3369.003.aspx

Do you have an old boat where you want to put it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Hughes on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 07:43 am:

No I live on a hill in middle of Wales!!! I only to buy a Lister engine and came back with a van full inc this. If i told you he burnt the boat then you can pull the same face i did..... I think if i can money back and diesel it cost me than thats a start, but I was tempted to preserve it and put on a stand like my stationary engines but depends on cost and if it is a rarity or not. I've got a car jack and curved spanners by ford, which tuckers may be interested in. He said it sound like a London Blake and Worthmore? lol .... Ive got a collasping small anchor and propeller, shall i photo them, no idea, they don't look that old. Regards Andy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Hughes on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 09:45 am:

What kind of a boat would it be suited to? Opps see I've started that affliction now lol. I like things to be in their right place or seen, are people interested in these for display or refurbing old craft and running them? I like stationary engines and they get shown but not used if you know what i mean. Regards Andy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 09:58 am:

Andy, do a keyword search on EW Roberts engines. They built their own in years before they began modifying Ford engines.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Hughes on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 11:39 am:

Hi Rick, thats a bit special nice! :-) , does it run on the stand or do you refurb so they turn over? Regards Andy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Gelfer, Milwaukee WI on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 11:59 am:

Long Island Motor Works in Sayville, NY (in operation from late teens to 1970s')used to convert Model T motors into marine engines. They later made larger ones of their own design. Karl Pausewang was the owner/inventor behind the operation. I'm married to his grand daughter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Hughes on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 12:15 pm:

Hi John, just looked them up. Nice bit of family history. This appears to be right hand drive so might be a uk conversion. I can't find plates or numbers but need to get it off the floor with a wire brush and have a good look.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Hughes on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 01:57 pm:

scintilla mag seems to fit albeit bracket at slight angle....





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 03:47 pm:

That EW Roberts engine belongs to my oldest brother. Dunno if he's started it. He's 88, and just had a larger shop built. Talk about confidence...

He built this car a few years ago from a picture of a Smith Motor Wheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Hughes on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 05:07 pm:

Brilliant, the car, the room and the new shop ( i assume thats a workshop). Fair play him, keep active and busy = longevity. Other than stationarys my first love was Wheelhorses, (your brother a JD man by the wall picture?). Ive got five WH's including a 1966 - 706 (1 of 3 i know of in the world), made in USA but only ever sold in UK where we encourage rust! :-( 702,800,Commando, Raider. They can be hard to get good ones over here now.
My other favourite atm is a 1927 Lister spec 11 d with a brunsun fly, low tank and original cast exhaust.
I might pop round ? lol


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Hughes on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 05:25 pm:

I picked this jack up at the same time and steering wheel but havn't found out much about them yet.







Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 06:50 pm:

Hi Andy

Lake made more than one model of this jack,
so this may not be exactly the same as yours.
There will likely be a UK patent or two as well.

Arthur Ernest Lake
Bishops Stortford, England
Lifting Jack
USPTO Patent # 1647049
Application date: Nov 28, 1925
Issue date: Oct 25, 1927

http://tinyurl.com/q4a22ln

Regards
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Hughes on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 04:45 am:

Hi Art
Thanks you very much, I did think it may be american and possibly for a 'T', but thats the fun in finding these old things. I really like it, if no one wants it I will restore it myself , it deserves some paint... I also found a Walker Jack which definitely American in origin.... :-) Regards Andy





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 05:26 am:

A flip top Walker jack would have been originally supplied with a late Model T. Maybe Moel A's too, don't know them so well. Flip top jacks may have been necessary earlier in the UK due to the drop frame chassis from late 1924 (1925 models)?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Hughes on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 05:43 am:

Thanks Roger, excellent I knew I find something off a T in the shed eventually :-)If you know anybody? lol . My ebay is scale-rule but i'm selling a lot of stuff direct on http://hmvf.co.uk/ to military people atm (they are pleased and i'm pleased this stuff goes to right people, right vehicle etc), need to sort the car stuff into makes and models first and see how much there is. I've 1000's of items to get through. Regards Andy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 12:39 pm:

Hi Andy

Some of the models (or names) on the jacks made by ErnLake are below,
and I believe that they were also involved in making jacks for Fordson as well.
Morris Garage Jack
Junior Garage Jack
Ford Garage Jack
He held some UK patents in the early 1900’s for screw jacks as well.

Regards
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sven Jakobsson on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 02:31 pm:

I am floating back to marine engines.
The attached picture shows most of what was a Model T engine used for marine duties. That is, less the engine itself. Power was taken off the front end of the engine. As the ordinary oil filler hole was covered a new filler hole was arranged at the side of the engine. That is the reason I have a cover plate on the engine crankcase in my car. I have the engine, but the other parts are not mine.
Best regards, Sven
Båtmotor


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sven Jakobsson on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 02:34 pm:

I am floating back to marine engines.
The attached picture shows most of what was a Model T engine used for marine duties. That is, less the engine itself. Power was taken off the front end of the engine. As the ordinary oil filler hole was covered a new filler hole was arranged at the side of the engine. That is the reason I have a cover plate on the engine crankcase in my car. I have the engine, but the other parts are not mine.
Best regards, Sven


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Hughes on Wednesday, October 02, 2013 - 05:42 am:

Thanks Art / Sven for the info.
Interesting photo Sven, I was wondering about the little oil filler position on mine, its looks like an addition.
I tempted to try and find someone who wants this complete and will not break for car parts. It would appear these engines are quite rare and it seems a shame not to install it into a vintage launch... Regards Andy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 03:26 pm:

For what it's worth,...in my estimation, any given engine has to work a lot harder in a boat than the same engine would normally have to work in an automobile. The work load is absolutely constant in marine use as opposed to the varying work load in an automobile. Not sure this comment has any real value; just sort of an interesting thought/observation,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 04:03 pm:

Harold,

I've had a similar thought, but with a different spin. Certainly a Model T engine in a Model T faces a varying work load/RPM while the same engine in a marine application faces more of a "stationary engine" work load, meaning a more constant work load and RPM. I think I conclude from this that the boat engine will hold up better due to the more more constant RPM's while the engine in the car will wear out after less running hours due to the varying load in spite of the fact that the boat engine works "harder".

I don't know if my thought is accurate or exactly 180 degrees out. As you said, sort of an interesting thought/observation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 10:32 pm:

Does anyone know the weight of the flywheel shown in the original pictures?

If its solid steel I would think you could turn the engine off and coast the last mile into port!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 10:59 pm:

Welcome Sven! Another Scandinavian hanging out here. ;-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Saturday, October 26, 2013 - 08:53 pm:

Saw this one at a tractor meet.
Don't know if it's marine or stationary.
Nice looking setup though.


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration