1909 T Hard to start when cold

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: 1909 T Hard to start when cold
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Monday, April 15, 2013 - 10:03 pm:

I have a relatively early post water pump 1909 T with a Kingston Five Ball carburetor that was rebuilt a couple of years ago rebuilt by Russ Potter.

The engine starts and runs great at all times other than the first cold start each day. The issue seems to be fuel / choke related. I determined this by using shot of starting fluid one morning for the first cold start and the engine fired and ran on the first pull. Further, once the engine is warmed up I can regularly get four or five free starts in a row. This suggests to me that the issue is not attributable to the ignition.

Without the shot of starting fluid...it takes several, as in seven to ten, pulls to get it going. I have tried "flooding" the carburetor with the button that depresses the float; I have tried obstructing the air intake by 25%, 50% and 75%, so as to draw more fuel when priming the engine. I have tried various throttle lever positions. Nothing seems to make a difference...aside from the shot of starting fluid.

Please share any thoughts you might have as to how I might go about addressing the hard to start cold problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Monday, April 15, 2013 - 11:04 pm:

Can you make the carb flood by choking it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, April 15, 2013 - 11:35 pm:

Try richening the mixture by turning the carb rod open 1/4 turn on a cold engine.

Common practice for antique cars - not just Model Ts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Monday, April 15, 2013 - 11:47 pm:

The early carbs had a button on them that when pressed would push the float down and let gas flood the carb. That is what Tim has tried without it working. Is there anyone out there with a early car that can suggest how long to hold the button down? Could be that you need to hold it down longer?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 12:06 am:

Tim, the method I use is to open the mixture needle 1/4 turn more then the normal run position of the needle. Push and hold down the float depressor until the carb is flooded, then pull the crank through 4 quarter turns, then turn on the ignition and start the car. Good luck! Kim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 12:17 am:

Kim,

Not to be picky but could you define flooded? Is the carb dripping gas out or just sort of short of that?

Thanks,

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 12:17 am:

Paul

Motorcycles had them too. We called it a "tickler". Always a good way to dump some raw gas in the carb. Usually one or two pushes of about a second each was about right, but it varied from bike to bike.

I'm wondering if the tickler is actually depressing the float enough to admit extra gas into the carb? Should feel some resistance in the button when it pushes down and forces the float to submerge. depending on the design of the button you might be able to depress it further with something like a ballpoint pen.

If held down long enough, you should be able to totally flood the engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 12:22 am:

Thanks for all the responses.

In my original post I failed to mention that I do open the gas adjustment needle a quarter turn (a carryover from running my 1928 - 1931 Model A's).

So....from reading the posts, maybe I am not holding the float depressor long enough. I have never timed it, but I suspect that I hold it for three or four seconds...but not long enough to flood the carburetor. I'll try holding it longer and see what happens.

However, I found that if I nearly completely block the air intake, with the second quarter pull the carburetor is flooding. Once that happens I remove the obstruction from the air intake, turn on the ignition....and nothing....before several pulls.

Is it possible that I haven't flooded it enough by not holding the float depressor long enough; and then have gone too far when I nearly block the intake and it floods on the second pull?

I have never attempted a cold start with the gas adjustment needle opened a half turn from the run position versus a quarter turn. I'll try this and see if it makes a difference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 12:24 am:

Bud,

Good point. It could be that the float depressor (learned a term from Kim) is not contacting the float.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 12:28 am:

To be clear...when I mention "flood" the carburetor, I mean gas dripping out of the bottom of it.

As an aside, it's not possible for me to start my K cold until gas is running out of the bottom of the carburetor. Once that happens, with every pull it fires at least one or two cylinders before it fizzles out (a technical term meaning no go). Three or four good quarter pulls and it usually takes off.

With my T it never seems to fire and fizzle. Rather, there's nothing until the one pull that finally makes it run. There's no in between as there is with the K.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 12:30 am:

Tim,

It is very possible that you are truly flooding the engine by blocking the air intake after manually flooding the carb. That would take a lot of pulls to clear before the engine would start. Let us know what you find.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 12:33 am:

Tim and Paul, it takes maybe 30 seconds to completely flood the carb, so you can see gas coming out the brass hex cap over the inlet needle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 12:36 am:

Any suggestions as to where the throttle lever should be positioned for a cold start? I have tried placing it at the spot that would be a fast idle if the engine were running....to much faster than one would run the car at idle. I haven't found the position of the throttle lever to make much difference.

AND....I have the throttle lever very open when I am priming the engine so as to prevent the butterfly from obstructing the fuel I am trying to deliver to the cylinders. Might this be causes the fuel air mixture in the cylinders to be too rich. Which in turn would require several more pulls to clear the excess fuel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 12:44 am:

Tim,

I am not an expert on early cars but I think that the throttle lever should be closed when priming in order to get the maximum amount of gas into the cylinders. You want to limit the air through the carb to get a rich mixture. Think about the choke plate on a modern carb. It would be closed when starting


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 12:49 am:

Tim,

When I start my 14 I have the throttle open about 1/4 to 1/3rd for a very fast idle. Then I pull the choke shut and pull the crank 2 to 3 quarter turns. Then open the choke and it usually starts on the first or second pull. I don't think you are getting a rich enough mixture to the engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 12:51 am:

Here's what I do on my 1910 equipped with a Russ Potter 5 ball.
1. Set the carb control dial just a bit on the rich side, but not much.
2. Flood the carb so the fuel is at the top of the threaded area covered by the brass hex cap. (I unscrew the cap and hold the needle open by hand since the depressor doesn't reach the newer float I installed. )
3. Once the carb is flooded, with the ignition OFF, pull the crank five times.
4. Turn the ignition on and in most cases the car will start automatically. If not, it will start on the first or second pull.
5. Run back and pull the spark lever down before the engine dies.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 01:04 am:

Closing the choke completely will cause the balls to raise off their seats and allow air into the intake ahead of the mixture. I've never really figured out the theory of what the float depressor is for except to run gas out on the ground but I think what it is supposed to do is raise the level of fuel above the spray needle area for starting.

Fuel has to be atomized before it becomes a gaseous mixture that will burn. The fuel passing the needle causes it to atomize. Then when it is drawn through the intake manifold the droplets of atomized fuel evaporate to form a gaseous mixture that will ignite in the cylinder. Raw fuel laying in the manifold will not gassify as readily as droplets from the spray needle.

I've not worked on a lot of 5 balls, there seems to be little information about them as far as performance but what little I have found is that they tend to be hard starting but run well after the engine is running. One of the problems I find with both 4 ball and 5 ball is that the ball seats are worn out of round as are the balls. The last one I had in here the balls were out of round by about .020 and one of them had been replaced by a ball bearing, which is too heavy for the air flow to lift to lean the mixture. They are designed for brass balls and the ball seats need to be reground so they do not allow air flow past them at idle or starting speeds.

Since it was rebuilt by Russ I'm sure the balls and seats are re-done.

If you look at the air flow in a Kingston 5 ball you can see why the changed the design. There is no real Venturi to speed up the air flow past the orifice, the air flow is straight up past the orifice, then turns the corner to go to the manifold. The balls and seats are located in the passage to the manifold so there are lots of places for it to draw air instead of fuel mixture.

The yellow stringy stuff in the pictures was all over inside this carb, apparently in an attempt to seal up the air leaks. I dunno.

Let's see if I can find a picture or two to show what I'm talking about.

Tim, are you running a Holley K on your K?

I didn't have any real good pictures of a 5 ball taken apart that I could find quick but this shows the "Venturi" such as it is. The air comes in the bottom of this tube, the needle screws down into a hole in the cross tube, which acts as the orifice. I wish I had a better picture. The last picture shows the balls and ball seats. If you look closely you can see that one of the balls is badly out of round as are the balls seats.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 01:34 am:

Thought I had a better picture somewhere. This is the venturi setup in the 5 ball. The "jet" at the left screws into the Venturi which then screws on to the center tube in the carb to hold it together. The adjustment needle screws down into this "jet" and as the air flows past it draws gas into the upward flowing air. You can see that at low cranking speeds it is not going to do a spiffy job of that. The fuel level needs to be set so the jet has fuel at the orifice, not below it, and not so high that there is a big puddle of gas in the cup of the seat. Pressing the float depressor floods gas through this seat which spills over the top and drips down into the air intake tube below, then out through a drain hole in the bottom.



While I'm at it, here is a pic of the 5 ball design. You can see how the air has to come up through the bottom of the carb and then up and turn into the manifold. The 5 balls are above the main passage and allow additional air to automatically lean the mixture by allowing more air in. There is a reason Kingston went to the 4 ball.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 06:25 am:

Intersting discussion! The starting procedure for Dad's 5 ball equipped 1910 mirrors Kims and Richards! Depress the lever and ensure the bowl is full of fuel, Open the mixture a quarter turn, 4 turns of the crank and extra for good luck! Turn on ignition and one or two turns does the trick.Starting has never been a problem, but running down the road the mixture seems to constantly require adjustment for best results. Perhaps a visit to Dr. Russ will fix it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 07:15 am:

Tim

I've had two Ts with 5 ball carbs, both rebuilt, and each required a different rich mixture setting to start cold. It took experimenting to find the correct amount of rich (counterclockwise) turn.. The one I still have (our 09) takes about a half turn open to start. The other took about 3/4 turn.

I never use the "tickler, it really didn't seem to help.

Happy cranking :-),

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 07:30 am:

Holley and Kingston and all other carb companies eventually did away with "tickler" type enrichment because it is so easy to flood the engine with them.

On the earliest 5 ball carbs there is no choke. You have to experiment to see what combination of tickler and cranking will work for you. Try a 2 second press of the tickler, then 4 pulls on the crank with the key off and throttle closed. Then open the throttle nearly all the way and turn on the key. Like Richard says if the timing is right you will then get a "free start" nearly every time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter B. Ratledge on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 08:21 am:

Timothy,

I have a late 1911 Touring with a Kingston 5 Ball Carb on it. It is hard to start also. I find the best thing to do is open the mixture 1/4 turn, and choke it. Turn the crank 4 or 5 times with the ignition off. Then it will start.

My carb was rebuilt by Russ Potter also. He suggested that I use a little Marvel Mystery Oil in the gas to keep the Balls moving. I run this carb on tours.

Hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 09:07 am:

Again, thanks for all the input.

I'll continue to experiment. I think I have tried most combinations set forth above, save for opening the needle more than a quarter turn. I'll try a half turn next time.

As for the float depressor / tickler and flooding the carburetor, do those who recommend flooding the carburetor do so until gas runs out?

As for having the throttle lever closed while priming, how does gas either droplets or vapor pass from the carburetor to the manifold and on into the cylinders?

I too find that I periodically need to adjust the fuel mixture needle while driving. This was especially true last July when I had the 1909 T on the HCCA 75th Annual Tour in Colorado Springs. Dealing with the elevation was one thing, but the ambient air temperature changes throughout the day also made a difference. And, notwithstanding the hard to cold start issue, the car and carburetor runs great. In fact, even though several fellows on the tour said I'd never make it to the top of Pike's Peak (14,110) with a stock 1909 T with a stock five ball carburetor...I did indeed make it to the summit.

Stan:

Yes, I am still using the Holley Model K carburetor on my K with very satisfactory performance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 11:01 am:

Well, I should not post things after standing on the cement for about 10 hours working on something. Let me fix a couple things here. First, "Since it was rebuilt by Russ I'm sure the balls and seats are re-done." I meant to say, "Tim, Since yours was rebuilt by Russ I'm sure the balls and seats are re-done. (The pictures above are most certainly NOT a carb rebuilt by Russ. I don't know who rebuilt it)

Second: "the needle screws down into a hole in the cross tube" Should have said: "The adjustment needle screws down in to a hole in a seat/jet that is screwed into the cross tube."

I also don't see the advantage of closing the throttle and cranking but I'm not the guy on the end of the stem doing the turning.

The big problem I see with the design is that the air flow has to pick the gas up out of the seat and pull it along up into the manifold and the engine. This is a problem inherent in all true updraft carbs, which this is. Most of the updraft carbs in use later were on cars with starters, where the cranking speeds are much higher.

If I had a 5 ball like this to experiment with I think I would redesign the seat where the orifice is to put some air flow past the seat differently. I would also make the venturi smaller so the air flow was faster than it is in this design. I think the big problem with them starting is that the design does not atomize the fuel charge well at cranking speeds.

Here is the last one I did, the owner says that it does not start as well as his 1910 does with an NH on it. He is probably right. By the way, I already know that the adjustment needle rod is too short. Fixed that.



I have a similar 5 ball that I bought in Chickasha that is actually slightly larger than this one. The guy I bought it from told me he had in on a 1913?? tractor and it was so hard to start that he replaced it with something else. I'm going to try to find time this spring to fool with it a little and see if there isn't some way to get better fuel atomization out of that orifice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 01:02 pm:

This is from the motor starting instructions in the back of the blue covered 1909 Model T parts book and refers to the Kingston 5 ball. It is the only carburetor shown in the book.

"Set throttle lever in eighth or ninth notch."

"Prime carburetor by pressing small lever on top of carburetor until gasoline bubbles out."

"A slight upward movement (of the starting crank) should start the motor unless it is cold, when three or four turns may be necessary. In extreme cases it may be necessary to close the carburetor intake, by holding your hand or glove over it until motor starts, then immediately withdraw it."

There is no mention of enrichening the mixture control for starting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 10:00 pm:

UPDATE

This evening I took another shot at a cold start.

I set the throttle at eight or nine notches.

I opened the gas adjustment needle valve a strong half turn richer than the sweet spot for running.

I depressed the tickler for 30 seconds. The lighting was poor so I couldn't see if any gas was running out of the carburetor. So, I couldn't confirm visually the affect, if any (some suggested that the tickler may be too short to touch the float) this had.

With the ignition off I pull the crank five times rather briskly.

I switched the ignition on and the engine sputtered. A great sign....and never before encountered event on a cold start. I pulled again and the engine spring to life. I quickly advanced the spark and then closed the gas adjustment valve a quarter turn which left it a quarter turn rich, and scaled the throttle back a bit. As the engine warmed up I continued to close the gas adjustment valve to the running sweet spot.

I don't think the position of the throttle had much impact as I had tried many position in the past with littler discernible difference. I do, however, believe it must be open so as to allow fuel to finds its way into the cylinders.

As for the tickler and gas adjustment valve....I can't say which....or maybe the combination....set things right.

In any event, it appears that with the help of those that responded to my thread I may be on the path of easier cold starts.

I will experiment again to see if I can isolate whether the gas adjustment valve setting or holding the tickler for 30 seconds made the big difference, and report my findings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 11:11 pm:

Getting the dang things started is the hardest part of owning ANYTHING with an engine.
There can be seven of the same thing and every one will start differently.
It took me a few days to get the recipe down for starting my '29 Model A.......I haven't been used to having to HARD choke to start anything for a long time but that's what it takes.
You're getting real close!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 - 12:46 am:

The earliest 5 ball carbs had no butterfly in the air intake tube. The only way to get extra gas for starting was to depress the float until gas flooded the bowl.

I agree with Tim, I don't see how any fuel can get to the cylinders with the throttle closed.

I think they are more sensitive than side draft carbs to any kind of an air leak. They will draw air around the adjustment shaft, around the balls and around any gasket that doesn't fit or seal well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 - 07:28 am:

My 10 Starts easily with the five ball Kingston. I open the throttle about 1/3 the way, flood the carby until dripping with the tickler. Place a cork plug in the air intake hole (has no choke). With ignition off, give the 2 or 3 turns (enough to prime the engine) Turn on the ignition and Give it a crank and it will start. Remove the cork. Sometimes it will kick from a coil in circuit. If it hasn't started for a while, I play with the mixture screw a bit and lean it off when warm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 - 10:44 am:

Stan,

I only say to close the throttle because it works. Arguing about why something works is a waste of time when it works. All that matters is that it works.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 - 11:18 am:

Fascinating assertion.....

When the car is not running, a closed throttle does not prevent or interrupt fuel from being delivered by the carburetor to the cylinders. Yet once the car is running, the throttle suddenly functions as expected, even to the point of starving the engine into submission due to lack of fuel if the throttle is closed.

Either black magic is at work ....... for fuel to pass by a closed throttle during the priming process...... or maybe enough fuel leaks by the closed throttle in the priming process to enable the engine to fire.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 - 11:30 am:

Try it and tell us what happens. You have one of two results: it works or it doesn't.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 - 12:21 pm:

What I really like about the forum is that everyone has their own opinion based on their experiences and expertise, which the other participants appreciate them sharing. There is very little arrogance about their own knowledge and experience and no personal insults or snide remarks.

That said, the throttle plate, when supposedly closed, does not shut off the flow of air completely to the intake. It restricts it to the idle setting, where there is still enough air/fuel flow to allow the engine to run. Again, opening the throttle all the way and closing the choke completely does not pass enough air THROUGH the carburetor to draw gas from the fuel orifice to atomize with the air flow, as there is no air flow. So what you are doing is sucking raw gas from the fuel orifice. (Technically, the fuel is being pushed out of the orifice by atmospheric pressure which is now greater than the reduced pressure in the manifold system due to the piston moving down on the intake stroke) However, for this discussion, we will call it sucking gas from the orifice. As there is not much air flow to draw that mixture upward and atomize it, the fuel drops to the bottom of the intake tube below the carburetor, where it evaporates into a gaseous mixture which will flow up through the venturi to the manifold and into the engine. That is what you are doing when you "flood" the carburetor and crank the engine over several times before turning on the ignition. This used to be called "charging" the cylinders with fuel.

Now think about what the balls do in the operation of the carburetor. The balls close off the air flow when they are in their seats. When the balls lift off their seats they infuse the incoming mixture from the orifice, which may or may not be in a gaseous state depending on the fuel volatility, temperature, air flow speed, etc. This is designed to happen after the engine is running. However, when the throttle is fully open, allowing all "suction" from the engine to be directed to the carburetor at full force, the balls will rise off their seats IF THE AIR FLOW IS RESTRICTED through the carburetor, allowing atmospheric air into the manifold ahead of the gaseous mixture. Therefore, keeping the throttle closed - remember it does not shut off the mixture flow completely - may allow a more balanced or richer mixture to enter the manifold and thereby the engine. This also would most likely be a richer mixture which will then gassify and mix with the air already in the manifold. Three or four pulls of the crank would most likely infuse the manifold air with enough rich mixture to start the engine. As soon as the engine is running, it will draw mixture from the carburetor.

I would think the things to check with any ball type carburetor would be the condition of the ball seats, the condition of the balls, the height of the fuel in the bowl, which MUST be high enough to keep the fuel orifice covered or the orifice will suck air instead of fuel.

These are a pretty primitive carburetor. There is really no circuit to them, there is very little venturi action in the air flow past the fuel orifice. They are a 1905-1907 design -- a lot was learned about carburetion in the next year or two and the side draft carburetor became standard on Fords because there was a way to hold a pool of gas in the air passage for vaporization at low speeds. Early day drivers closed the choke when they parked the car to keep the fuel from evaporating out of the carburetor. This may be something that would help with starting an early car with a 5 ball.

Here are a couple last things and then I am off to the shop to try to get a couple carbs out today before we leave for a concert tour this weekend down through Wyoming to support my new CD.

I am not talking about any specific carburetor owned by or worked on by anybody else so don't jump in the middle of me. This is just my experience and I haven't worked on too many five balls carbs, most of which were not for Model T's. EVERY one I have had in here needs the seats reground and the balls replaced. EVERY one I have worked on has had the upper sealing area of the bowl warped to the extent it needed to be milled flat to seal the air flow. EVERY one I have worked on needed a needle and seat system that controls the fuel level very closely. The needle is often replaced by a system that does not raise the new needle off its seat until the float is quite far down, allowing the fuel level to drop too far. Depending on the needle used to replace the original, fuel pressure may not be enough to raise the needle off the seat. There are a bunch of different designs used.

Phone call about carburetors, I gotta go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 - 07:12 pm:

I should have included in my previous post:

"spark lever set in third or fourth notch"

"switch closed" (no priming cranks with the switch off).

An item of interest to people that understand carburetors and has to deal with what Stan just explained is the fuel system on the Model 115 Spraycoupe. A Spraycoupe is a self propelled grain sprayer that's been around since about 1969 and is powered by a Volkswagen engine. The early ones had inertia governors and the later ones had belt driven governors. The Solex carburetors on the engines with belt driven governors had no accelerator pumps and electric chokes. If you shut the engine off when it was warm, it was almost impossible to immediately start it again. With the engine at rest, the governor shoves the throttle plate to wide open. The electric choke is warmed up so it is held wide open. Even if it had an accelerator pump it wouldn't help because the governor is holding the throttle linkage wide open. The only way to suck any gasoline out of the bowl is to shut the key off and let the choke cool off. The operators manual doesn't say anything about it, it's something I had to learn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Brancaccio - Calgary Alberta on Friday, April 19, 2013 - 07:57 pm:

I also have an early 1909, serial 2585, with a Kingston 5 ball, with no choke. I have never been able to start it reliably from cold.

I am happy to report that with this thread it finally got through to me.

I first checked that the tickler lever to depress the float was actually working by removing the nut above the fuel inlet. I don’t think I was ever holding the lever long enough to flood the carb. On my car it takes about 10 seconds.

Then retard the spark, open the throttle to about 1/3, and open the mixture knob ¼ turn. Give it 2 or 3 pulls with the electric off. Then turn the switch on.

I did this 3 days in a row. The first day I had to pull it twice and it fired, the next 2 days it gave me a free start!

Success, yahoo

Thanks to all that contributed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, April 19, 2013 - 08:26 pm:

Chris,

Way to go. Now you'll be able to take it out year round :-).

Is the couplet back in action?

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy on Friday, April 19, 2013 - 08:33 pm:

Two things about the early T's, the 5 ball carbs and the 2 piece timers have always had a bad reputation and often been changed out for later parts! Great to hear that with the help of this thread, owners are getting a handle on using the 5 ball and hopefully are encouraged to start and drive the early ones more often. Now possibly a similar thread on the two piece timer??? It is more troublesome on tour than the 5 ball but a good friend is working on a fix. Hoipefully it will be successful and we will share results. Standby!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, April 19, 2013 - 10:36 pm:

The 5 ball carburetor is one of my favorites. Great performance, easy starting.

I think the two piece timer is no different than any roller timer, except harder to remove for cleaning. The roller timers need lots of lubricant, and they need to be cleaned every year. Do that and they last virtually forever. Again great performance and very reliable.


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