Searching for a first T; What should I expect to spend?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Searching for a first T; What should I expect to spend?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Niescior on Saturday, May 04, 2013 - 07:26 pm:

Hello,

I've recently become very interested in purchasing a Model T. My grandfather is a collector of Packards, and I inherited his interest in old cars. I am entertaining the idea of buying a Model T because they are relatively cheap (as far as old cars go), they are ugly in all the right ways, and the control layout is so weird that I can't help but want to own and drive one.

I am particularly interested in finding a running T. My understanding of current T values is that they are rarely worth anything what someone has paid to restore one, so as much as I would like to restore a T someday, I would really rather first have a car I can drive, and obtain a project car later. My understanding is that I will ultimately pay less to have a running car if I simply buy a running car, rather than pick up a cheaper car in need of complete repair. Further, I am most interested in finding a '15 or a '16 with a 1915 production date. I really like the mix of the cowling with the brass radiator on the '15-16s, and if possible I would like a car I can tour with my grandfather in the HCCA. I very much like the 1917-early 20s cars as well, and I would certainly consider one, but a '15-'16 could be used in ways that the slightly later cars couldn't be.

Basically, I am most currently most interested in a 1915-16 T touring car in drivable condition. By drivable I mean with upholstery (if heavily worn), an engine which runs, and a complete (if perhaps old and worn) paint job. I want a car that has the look and feel of a Model T, even if it is not in any way showroom shape.

The essential problem for me is funding the purchase of one. As it is now, I will likely be saving for quite a while to afford it; perhaps a year or more of pinching pennies and setting aside chunks of paychecks. I would likely be able to save a few thousand dollars, but probably fewer than $10,000.

My question is, basically, can I expect to find (perhaps after considerable digging and waiting) a decent '15-16 T in the $6-$8,000 dollar range? If not, perhaps a 1917-mid 20s car?

Thanks for reading,

Dave N


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Saitta on Saturday, May 04, 2013 - 07:32 pm:

Brass Model Ts- 1916 and earlier- are more expensive than the later ones.You could find a so-so T later than 1916 for $10,000


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Saturday, May 04, 2013 - 07:45 pm:

You can find a pretty decent 17-27 in the $6-8k range, but a mechanically sound 15-16 matching your description will typically be at or above $10k.

One thing to watch for on 15-16s is that many of them are actually later cars, made to look like the 15-16 (usually 15) by adding the brass and changing the fenders.

If you go on any tours, you would think the 1916 Model T is the rarest of them all... most of them have the brass trim on the lights and lamps added to make them look like a 15. A correct appearing '16 is an unusual sight!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, May 04, 2013 - 07:46 pm:

You are about right on 10K for a running true 1915.

Some searching and perhaps a bit less, but anything under 5k won't be a running one, and missing a lot of stuff to get it running.

This one is on the club classified now:

Car for Sale: 1915 Model T Touring Car. Ruxell 2 speed rear end. Original engine. Great Shape. $9,500 OBO. Have pictures available.
Bob Christian <debiq791@aol.com> 541-821-7893
3960 Independence School Rd, Medford, OR USA - Wed May 1 11:14:57 2013


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, May 04, 2013 - 08:01 pm:

Here are a couple closer to Cherry Hill, NJ:

This may or may not be the real thing - the armrests are indicative of late 1916 or later. If it were mine, I would get rid of the truck box and install the correct trunk.
http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/cto/3735060645.html

This car has a mixture of parts, including a later motor. I'd have to see it in person. Price is high.
http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/cto/3764781225.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gilbert V. I. Fitzhugh on Saturday, May 04, 2013 - 08:27 pm:

Fair warning: This post is heretical. It may get me burned at the stake. If the T-police catch you reading it, you may be barred for life.

BUT!

A Model T isn't the cheapest way to tour with the HCCA. If I needed to get into HCCA touring for the absolute lowest going-in price, I'd look for a Saxon roadster or a Metz. There aren't many around, but good ones are decent runners with Model T performance. But get one that's been well-sorted out, because parts are scarce. There's a Saxon for sale on the HCCA website.

Of course, buying such a car won't let you tour in either Model T club. Depending on where you live, you may find much more Model T activity than HCCA activity. Or not. Either way, if you want to tour any significant distance from your home, you'll need a trailer, and something to pull it with, and somewhere to keep it. Sometimes the peripheral equipment costs more than the car.

Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, May 04, 2013 - 09:55 pm:

Start by figuring what you want to spend and what body styles your interested in then begin advertising in the Forum classifieds for a car. I found 3 very local to me (under 40 miles) and it's considered a light area for T's. I've had 2 Touring's. Both under $7000.00 and the second one didn't need a thing. Except for the coils which I changed the caps on and had HCCT'd. (see my profile pic). Their out there. And don't jump at the first one you see AND have someone who knows go with you to look.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Saturday, May 04, 2013 - 11:47 pm:

Check the classified ads on this site.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Kemmerer on Sunday, May 05, 2013 - 12:09 am:

That 15 on independence school road sold in less than a day. I wanted to check it out to see if it was a real fifteen but it was already sold. I just bought an older restoration but still quite presentable and correct 26 roadster for five grand. They're still out there
Dale


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, May 05, 2013 - 12:36 am:

Your idea of buying a running car is right on the mark. Your observation that it saves you money to let somebody else take the hit for repairs is correct. But even a running car may cost you more than the purchase price. I paid eight grand for my pretty good 1915 runabout. But the radiator recore and the engine/transmission rebuild to make it fit for touring, even doing some of the work myself, will bring that total up to ten thousand. I would expect a good 1915 touring to cost $8000 to $12,000, but once you have it there will be other costs to correct some of the wrong things that have been done to it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Sunday, May 05, 2013 - 12:39 am:

a Model T Ford Buyer's Guide
(prepared by a newbie, so take it for what it's worth):

Model T Fords come in three basic flavors; the "brass cars" built between 1908 and 1916; the "steel cars" built between 1917 and 1925 which were painted overall black including the radiators; and the "improved cars" built in 1926 and 1927, which, though available once again in some nice colors, were still powered by the same basic Brass Era 4-banger and 2-speed planetary transmission, and were still stopped by the same type of seriously outdated, single-drum, drive-train brake.

Most if not all of the brass Fords made between 1908 and 1911 had wooden bodies. A changeover was made to sheet metal-covered wooden frames midway through the 1912 model year.

Brass cars command a much higher price than the steel or improved cars. The earlier vintage brass cars are worth much more than the later brass cars and even between back-to-back model years, like 1912 and 1913, the 1912 car will command a significantly higher price than the 1913 car. It's no surprise, then, that the 1915 and 1916 model-year cars are the least expensive of the brass cars (fetching somewhere in the neighborhood of $17,000 for a very good daily driver with good paint, upholstery and top, in good mechanical condition).

This pricing principle does not hold true for the "steel cars," all of which are worth about the same price, assuming identical body style (touring, roadster, etc.) and equal condition. As far as daily-drivers are concerned, a fair steel car might run $5,000; a good one, $10,000 and a creampuff might fetch $13,000 (oh, and by the way, I'm not talking about show cars that win trophies at sanctioned Antique Automobile Club of America competitions. Prices for those rolling works of art-whether brass or steel-are astronomical and you wouldn't dare drive one in traffic).

The "improved cars" enjoy upgrades like balloon tires, geared-down steering and slightly better brakes. In terms of price, they're worth about the same as the black cars, but look so similar to the Model A Ford that you almost might as well get one of those and enjoy its greater cruising speed and highway capability.

As originally manufactured, the earlier Model T's were lighter and had slightly more power. They do perform better than the later cars, but that isn't really saying very much. The Model T is not a highway car. Its best cruising speed is about 35 mph - 40, if you don't mind abusing the engine. That means most of your afternoon drives will pretty much be limited to a forty or fifty-mile radius. Taking a Model T beyond that distance involves either getting out of bed earlier or towing the car on a trailer. That having been said, in the summer of 2009, fifty-four Model T Fords drove from New York to Seattle. Traveling in caravan is much easier, safer and more fun than going it alone.

For reasons of simplicity (and perhaps a reluctance on the part of Mr. Ford to pay royalties to those who held patents on more conventional accessories), the Model T had some basic equipment unique unto itself. This included a flywheel-mounted, low-voltage magneto; 4-coil ignition and a 2-speed planetary transmission featuring a brake that transmitted the braking impulse down the drive-shaft, through the differential, to that rear wheel which had the least traction. The most important thing to understand about driving Model T is that it was designed to have the same braking capability as the Titanic. It will take time and patience to learn to drive a Model T. In fact, it's best to have someone teach you.

People think of the Model T as being tough to the point of being indestructible. That's a myth. In some ways, it is far more delicate than any modern car-yet many thousand examples of this century-old design are on the road today. The car's obstinate longevity is mostly due to its having been produced in ridiculously large numbers, its go-kart simplicity and a super-availability of parts (not to mention the best technical advice forum on the internet). Aside from powerplant overhauls, you can pretty much do all of your own maintenance. The car always needs tinkering and a little at a time, you'll learn what you need to know about twirling screwdrivers and bending cotterpins.

Here are some questions to consider while making a pre-purchase inspection:

What is the general condition of the car and is everything on it in working condition? A generally dirty car with dust on the seats hasn't been run in a while and that tells you something about recent maintenance. That doesn't mean a car that looks good is good-because the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but if you're going to bet, that's the way to go.

Has the car suffered any damage or been in a serious accident? A century-old car is going to be carrying some baggage, so it's not reasonable to expect a vestal virgin, but as a first-time buyer, you definitely want to avoid a car that has structural issues like a bent frame.

Is the front end nice and tight? It's easy enough to rough-test for tightness in the front end by rocking the steering wheel side to side and checking for excessive play. If you're mechanically inclined, taking the play out of a loose front end is fairly straightforward, but for a newbie, it's a headache you don't need, right off the bat.

Is there any rust on the car? Model T Fords are made of some seriously good quality materials, but corrosion on a car is never a good thing. Perforation rust on the body is more serious than fender rust because it may be indicating the presence of wood rot beneath. Most Model T's have wooden frames covered by sheet metal.

So, is there any wood-rot in the body? Fixing this problem can be expensive and difficult. Significant wood rot is a problem for an experienced restorer, not a first-time antique car hobbyist.

Is there a lot of Bondo in the body? This isn't critically important, but it can become a point when negotiating price.

In what condition is the paint job? Same as above.

In what condition is the upholstery? Ditto.
Is this car a Ford-factory-built original, or was it custom-built later on from parts? This is a value-related question. An original is simply worth more.

Does the engine start well when hand-cranked? Some of these cars have self-starters and that includes retro-fitment of some of the early brass cars which came out of the factory with no electrical system whatsoever. A starter is a wonderful thing to have because when you stall the car in heavy traffic, setting the brake and getting out front to begin a lengthy wrestling match with a stubborn engine while frustrated, angry drivers are trying to pass at close range, can be a humbling experience. At the very least, you want a non-self starting car to start easily when hand-cranked.

Does the engine run smoothly, have good power, etc.? A correctly running, stock Model T engine is a joy to drive. A properly set-up magneto is important because getting in there to adjust the thing is just not a practical option for someone new to the hobby. On the other hand, the four individual coils, which also benefit greatly from proper adjustment, are very accessible and if you don't have the expertise to adjust them yourself, it's a simple matter to ship them out to an expert like "The Coil Doctor," who will have them singing.

Does the engine have a high-compression head? A high compression head is the most effective piece of bolt-on performance equipment you can buy. Don't expect a big increase in cruising speed, but acceleration and hill-climbing ability will be measurably improved. Other enhancements might include a later-model carburetor, like the NH, and/or a bigger intake manifold. These are all easy to get.

Does the car have a generator? If not, then by what method is the battery charged and where is the battery mounted? None of the brass-radiator Fords were manufactured with any kind of electrical system. In fact, when electric headlights replaced acetylene headlamps in 1915, these were wired up to the engine's magneto. The headlights would be nice and bright at 30 mph, but dimmed down to almost nothing when the car slowed for turns. Legend has it that you could burn out the bulbs by exceeding 40 mph with the headlights switched on. Henry Ford seemed to pride himself on being the first to be last and he didn't begin installing electrical systems in his cars until 1919, when 6-volt batteries and generators appeared for the first time on the Model T. The brass cars can be retro-fitted with electrical systems, but of course, that would be a significant departure from originality.

Is the radiator of the round-tube or flat-tube type? The original round-tube radiator won't cool as efficiently as the aftermarket, flat-tube radiators being manufactured today. The issue is originality vs. function.

Is the front wishbone attached to the top or to the bottom of the front axle? Originally, the front wishbone was attached to the top of the front axle. For reasons of safety related to loss of steering control, that geometry was changed in 1919 by instead attaching the wishbone to the bottom of the axle. Some of the earlier cars have been retrofitted.

Are the thrust washers in the differential made of babbitt or bronze? The original babbitt thrust washers in the differential have not aged well and so developed a tendency to fall apart. When that happens, the firm mesh of gears between the drive shaft and the differential can loosen to the point where the drive-train brake is rendered inoperative and the only remaining means of stopping the car would be the parking brake (unless you happen to have some kind of auxiliary brakes installed on the rear wheels).

Does the car have a Ruckstell rear end? This 2-speed, shiftable differential was one of the few aftermarket items of which Henry Ford approved, and some of Ford's dealers offered this as an option. It's a nice thing to have if you live in a very hilly area or if you're going to be driving in parades. The most serious disadvantage of a Ruckstell is that it can get stuck in neutral between gears and that renders the drive-train brake completely ineffective.

Does the car have Rocky Mountain brakes? If you have a Ruckstell rear end, you need Rocky Mountain Brakes (or some other kind of auxiliary brakes). Rocky Mountain Brakes became available as an aftermarket item in 1917. They improve the Model T Ford's braking ability dramatically, from abominable to bad.
Rocky Mountain brakes are of the "self-energizing" type, which means they don't stop very well when the car is rolling backwards. They're also reputed to work badly in wet conditions (and this is why the original drive-train brake, which functions in either direction and in wet conditions, should be retained even when the car is retrofitted with Rocky Mountain brakes).

Some folks have mounted disc brakes to the Model T and that modification is commercially available. Though these are extremely high quality units, that doesn't change the fact that the car has awfully skinny wheels and when your tires have the same footprint as a shot-glass, the best disc brakes in the world won't stop the car in any shorter distance than the Rocky Mountain type.

Does the car have de-mountable wheels? De-mountable rims became available in 1919 and they make for much simpler and quicker flat tire changes on the road, assuming you're carrying spares. They're not correct on earlier cars, but that hasn't stopped a lot of people from retrofitting brass cars that frequently go on tour.

Does the car have an electric brake tail light and directional signals? In an open car with the top down, you may get away with hand signals, but an enclosed car that is driven in traffic really needs turn signals because hand signals won't be visible to someone on the right side of the car. Either way, at least one brake-light is a must, for obvious reasons.

Does the car have safety glass? Think of the old type of glass windshield as a guillotine. Replacing such panes with safety glass is a must.

When was the last time the car was driven? How often is the car driven? Has it participated in any tours? Active cars tend to be healthier cars. To take an inactive car out of mothballs invariably costs significant bucks.

Buy the best car you can afford. It's almost always cheaper to find and buy the one that's already restored and equipped as you like than it is to buy a basket case and restore it yourself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Sunday, May 05, 2013 - 07:45 am:

David, take what what Bob Corio just said to heart. He's has a 1915 T Touring Car that was 'completely restored' (wink wink), when he bought it.
All I'll add to all of this is locate the closest Model T club to you and attend one of their meetings. Make some Model T friends and see if you can get one to look over prospective cars you might want to buy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jamie Savannah Ga. on Sunday, May 05, 2013 - 08:21 am:

I was a first time buyer just a few months back and can attest the best path was to read this forum and learn as much as possible.

Now i did bid on several cars on ebay , sight unseen, and thank the good lord i did not get one of the ones i bid on as this site has confirmed my worst night mares about buying one that might not be what the seller said it was on ebay.

Three of those cars I have seen listed on here for help as newbie needs help. Like my myself a newbie I saw a T called the owner and could tell that he had this car in his family for a very long time and knew everything about the car which i knew what to ask about reading this forum.

The folks on here are true experts and can help you find the right car if you just read there post . Be aware of the car that someone has owned just a few months, theres trouble around that corner.

I have really enjoyed just driving my T that the seller told me , all you have to do is add gas.

I have recently started looking at doing some maintenance on her after reading many guys post. Headgasket replacement in is on current radar and I am throughly enjoying it.

When all said and done I paid 9k for a driver, And a darn good one that a member on here cared for nearly 40 years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Sunday, May 05, 2013 - 10:09 am:

Here's the other side of the coin.

I paid $3500 for a non driver, took 3 months and $500 and it was a driver.

Plus ... I had a ball doing it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Niescior on Sunday, May 05, 2013 - 11:20 am:

Thanks all for the advice! I suppose I will put off obtaining one of the brass cars, perhaps as that restoration project down the road a few years. In the mean time I'll look for one of the black cars. I still greatly enjoy their looks, but I can get some of the period correct improvements (brakes, demountable rims, etc.) without having to sacrifice authenticity.

Does anyone know of a good year by year guide to Model Ts, so as to be able to tell one year from the next? I am particularly interested in learning the details of the steel cars, so I can best be prepared to identify potential purchases.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, May 05, 2013 - 11:49 am:

That's a cue for me to post my link to the "Jelf shelf" of books, as someone called it. In particular, I'll direct your attention the Bruce's encyclopedia on disk. Some of the information is here on the website, but there's much more on disk. Probably the best $50 you can spend on a T. Also helpful in identifying parts by year are the Rodda books. And of course the serial number list in both versions of the encyclopedia will date the engine, with the disk version again being more detailed. I take a laptop with the encyclopedia on it to swap meets and auctions for reference before I buy something.

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html

At first the black era cars all look the same, but you soon learn to ID the year by high or low radiator, windshield straight up or leaning back, wishbone above or below the axle, and other features.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, May 05, 2013 - 01:52 pm:

Bob Coiro - Your post above, in my estimation, is one fine piece of writing! Every "newbie" should print out a hard copy of that and carry it with him while looking for (or looking at) a possible first Model "T". In fact, reading that is a darn good "refresher" for a lot of us "T" guys that have been in the hobby but that (like me) are no "experts by any means.

Besides the advantage of joining a local club, I can't help but think that a really good way for a "newbie" to start out in this hobby would be to have on hand a hard copy of what you just wrote Bob, a hard copy of the Towe Auto Museum's list of steps on how to take a Model "T" out of mothballs, and to heed Steve Jelf's good advice on the right couple of shop manuals to buy, right at the outset.

Once again, a very fine piece of writing Bob,.......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Sunday, May 05, 2013 - 03:54 pm:

You're way more than kind, Harold. Thanks for the generous words.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard Paulsen, San Buenaventura, Calif on Sunday, May 05, 2013 - 04:01 pm:

While I understand the reasons why some people desire a brass car, I personally like the black cars best, for the same reason Jay Leno chose a 1925 Runabout as his first and so far only Model T, even though he could have afforded the rarest and most expensive Model T ever made without even blinking with an eye.

The proverbial Model T is a black area Runabout or Touring, with patinated paint, patinated upholstery, and wood wheels. If you think Model T, you think "car that travels faster than a horse" and "any color as long as it's black."

Close to $10K, $8K perhaps, should secure you a nice black era Model T with just minor needs, a car that you can enjoy, be proud of, and will never want to part with. Your second Model T, eventually, can be a brass car project, but I would suggest you do this one step at a time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Sunday, May 05, 2013 - 05:16 pm:

I will stir the pot here. If the car has a water pump "to keep from running hot", plan on a new radiator. ($1000) If the Ruckstel hangs between two gears, it's not built right! Even the best looking cars will need work to be tour dependable!


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