What's this car worth?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: What's this car worth?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wilber Elliott on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 08:16 am:

Looked at this '14 Touring over the weekend. Solid car but needs some TLC. The motor ran for a short time but really chugged and bucked, then died. All four wheels were loose at the fello/rim, the top was missing but the irons are there. The motor has never been out or rebuilt and the rad still held water. Paint was o.k. and the dash was replaced with plastic? What do you think is a fair offer?

1914 Touring







Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 08:39 am:

So the motor has been painted red without ever being removed from the car? Hmmm.

If the car is a real 1914, I'd offer eight grand. That may be high. I suspect fixing it up will swallow a pile of dollars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 08:53 am:

Looks like a good solid older restoration with 30 - 50 year old reproduction upholstery. I bet the engine has been rebuilt multiple times over the past 99 years.

The pictures that you show appear to have mostly correct parts. What about the driveshaft, rear axle, front axles, and wheels? Are the hubs the early type? Headlamps and horn crack free? I agree I would buy it for $8K, but the seller might not sell it that cheap if it is really correct and complete.

Just because the engine died on a test run is not indicative of an expensive problem. Maybe the fuel strainer is clogged, or the car needs more gas in the tank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 09:02 am:

I'm digging the indoor/outdoor carpet for a floormat. That's pretty awesome.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Wicker on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 11:13 am:

Get it running right,fix the wheels,install a top and I would be good @ 8,000
As it set's $4500.00-$5000 $8k will get you a good selection of nice T's to look at in Va.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 11:35 am:

What you've got there could be either a money-pit or a diamond in the rough (and certainly, it's almost impossible to locate an original astroturf floor mat).

I agree with Royce (which is sort of like a 2nd grade schoolboy in science class agreeing with Robert Oppenheimer) that the engine, though misbehaving, may be okay, but it's a coin-toss — could be something seriously expensive, could be the timer needs to be wiped out with a paper towel.

Stutzman's Wheel Shop could fix the wheels for about $800 (plus shipping).

Replacing a missing top and missing bows might be a surprisingly expensive proposition, but by itself, it's not a show-stopper. I haven't put my top up in over a year.

If it were me, I'd ask the owner to let me do a compression check on the engine. The fact that it ran at all suggests there's no catastrophic damage within. Of course, you could clean and oil the timer and check for spark at the plugs, and clean out the carb and put a little fresh gas in the bowl — and the owner would probably just love that because if you get the engine running smoothly, he will joyously raise the price on you.

A 1914 Touring, in good-looking, good-running condition, is an extremely desirable car, certainly worth significantly more than my '15 Touring.

I'm guessing start the negotiations at $8,000, with an absolute, iron-clad, mental limit at $10,000.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 12:02 pm:

Of course, we have no idea where it is. Location matters. The same car will cost more in California or Massachusetts than it will in Kansas or Montana.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 12:08 pm:

Engine never been out and yet it is painted red!!! Clearly not true so what else can you believe???
$8K is about right but expect to spend 50% more in fixing it up before taking it on a longish tour. For $12k you can probably find a tour ready car...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 01:43 pm:

For me,.....one big unanswered question. Engine number? That'll tell if it's a '14 engine or not, and I'd think, have quite an impact on the value of the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wilber Elliott on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 01:52 pm:

The engine number is 443984 and was cast on 12/29/13. As far as I know the car is complete. The lamps/horn are not cracked (as far as I can tell) and the driveshaft is a one piece. The car is located in the midwest and has been in storage for a long time. The owner's father bought the car at a museum auction in 1971 and took the body off to repaint. I suspect that's when the red was applied to the motor, as he told me the engine was never gone through because it ran fine for his dad. When his father died he put the car in storage for forty years and is selling to help his aging mother out and wants 17K, but is willing to take 15. I'm trying to negotiate a lower price based on the work that needs to be done in order to make it drivable but so far he is unwilling to budge.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 02:01 pm:

It's like every other Model T. There are unknowns, and with every other T, to purchase is to gamble on what you'll find later on. I don't see this car as any more a risk than any other. I would think it's a nice buy at $8000 if the body wood is good and there's no Bondo. As someone else suggested, $10,000 might be the maximum. Maybe $12K if you just had to have it and don't intend on selling it any time soon.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 02:08 pm:

Wilber - Just my opinion, but even if $8,000.00 is too much (which I don't think it is) and if it really IS mostly '14, I'd not let that car get away! Think of it this way, whatever that car is worth now, it'll never be worth any less, and it WILL absolutely appreciate over time! There are only just so many brass cars left, and they ain't build'n any more, right?

In other words, to my way of thinking, if you're looking to "flip" the car to make a quick profit on it, price of course matters. However, if you plan to keep the car and keep it in the family by passing it down, you almost can't pay too much for it. Again, just my (perhaps strange) way of thinking, but that's my opinion for what it's worth,.......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 02:10 pm:

For 17K it needs to have the top completely done right, and the wheels and everything else ready for a major tour. Good gas-lamp era Ts seem to be going up in price. For about 7K more invested, it can be a 17K car.
Several people have advertised lately that they are looking to buy a '13 or '14 touring.
Good luck!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 03:15 pm:

Heck, its worth 12K. I see cars from the twenties going for that much, although admittedly they are better restored. It appears you have a pretty original car there. If it is all 1914, or most all 1914, its worth that and probably more. OTOH, I think 15K is a bit of a stretch. I'd say if you can get it for 12K go for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 03:22 pm:

There's a restored '14 advertised in the classifieds right now..........


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wilber Elliott on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 04:40 pm:

Here are a few more pictures of the car. Don't know if it adds anything to the conversation, but maybe so. Thanks for all the input, and yes, if I did buy it I would keep it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 05:40 pm:

For what it's worth, when I buy a T that is unknown to me I assume the entire drive line will need to be redone, the wheels will need to be rewooded and then I add in the cost of whatever else you can clearly see it will néed such as upholstery and a top in your case. Deduct the cost of all those items from what cars of the same vintage that have been recently restored are selling for and you have a reasonable basis to make an offer. I don't always follow my own advice however because there are times when the economics may not make sense but you just have to have it. I bought a car years ago for more than everyone said it was worth but it was what I wanted and I was able to slowly bring it up to the point that I wanted it to be. Thirty years later it's still my favorite and it's worth a whole lot more than I have into it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 06:07 pm:

The owner's asking price of $15,000 isn't realistic because with a minimal repair investment to dependable, touring condition, a 1914 Touring with poor upholstery and an iffy paint job would be worth a maximum of $18,000, if that—and this one is certainly going to need more than 3-grand worth of parts and labor.

If the car has been inactive for 42 years, the engine and transmission are significant risks. Tires that old are shot and I'd bet there's a good deal of loose play in the front end. Safety glass might be another niggling little issue, and might there exist the usual, babbitt thrust-washer problem in the rear end? Figure on throwing in a few things like an electric brake light kit, Rocky Mountain brakes and a few cosmetic items like floor mats. Other than the powerplant, none of these things, individually, are deal-breakers, but together they add up to considerable bucks.

It sure looks like a darn nice car to me, even if it does have a few things wrong with it, but not for 15-grand.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 07:35 pm:

No speedometer. A 1914 is supposed to have one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 08:26 pm:

Looks really good in the pictures except the front hub shown is obviously wrong. Regarding speedometers, in 1914 it was less likely than 1913 or 1915. Ford was giving rebates to cars with no speedometer in 1914 model year. This could have been one that got the rebate instead of a speedo.


I'm up to $10K.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome Hoffman, Hays KS on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 08:36 pm:

In this sn range a 2 peice ds should be in the car. Look to add another 500.00 if starting from scratch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome Hoffman, Hays KS on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 08:39 pm:

Opps my price range would be around Royce's 8000.00 if all the drive train has all the correct parts, including an aluminum hogs head


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 08:46 pm:

The main question is: Do you like the car? If you do then see what you can negotiate. By the time you get it restored, you will be out a significant amount of additional cash and a lot of labor. When you are done, you will know what you have. If you can find a properly restored 14, it would likely be a better buy. If you don't have or wish to spend the cash then go with this one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wilber Elliott on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 10:00 pm:

Royce, just curious about the front hub. What kind of hub should the 1914 have?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Thursday, May 09, 2013 - 10:58 pm:

Just as a comment, my 14T looked very similar the the one pictured above but with a known history since 1917. The front tires were blown, the top ripped and it had 1/2" of dust on it. The car has an Oct of 13 engine and is quite correct. It had been restored in the mid 50's and seen little use since then, spending most of its days in a dirt-floored garage.
I knew nothing about T's when I bought it but learned by doing. The rear end failed within 50 miles due to the pinion thrust failing. Yes I put bronze bushings in to replace the babbit carrier thrusts.
I then learned that a T on rolling hills needs accessory brakes. After I improved the brakes I learned that slightly loose wheels is akin to slightly pregnant, you cannot put things off.
Do I regret it...... NO! I am as enamored with it today as the day I bought it :-)
I have NEVER had second thoughts about buying it!

Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, May 10, 2013 - 02:17 am:

Maybe this one didn't get any speedometer from Ford? From the encyclopedia:
http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1914H.htm
"Speedometers, standard equipment on the Model T since early 1909, were discontinued, for a short time at least, because of a shortage in supply. According to a letter dated November 4, 1913, a $6.00 allowance was to be made in the price of the car when there was no speedometer installed."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard Paulsen, San Buenaventura, Calif on Friday, May 10, 2013 - 03:27 pm:

A car is worth what you are willing to pay for it. Thus, first you need to establish if you want this car. Are there others out there that are similar? If so, what do they sell for?

Once you know you want this car you can establish the price that you are willing to pay for it. Add what you need to pay to bring it to the condition you desire and then figure out the total damage based on the asking price which you would adjust accordingly to make a proper offer.

Yes, there are always unknowns, but I believe you can't assume that everything you don't know the condition about will just crumble when you touch it and be completely redone or replaced. This "the glass is totally empty" approach seldom works. Smart people are willing to take a risk when it seems appropriate.

This lovely and largely original 1913 tourer was recently offered for $21,5K. It sold, and while we don't know the exact purchase price, we can assume it was at or near $20K.



I would assume that a 1914 is worth a bit less, and, frankly, the condition of the car in question is a bit less than the one of the car I showed for comparison. Figure out how much money you'd have to spend, and deduct it from the price you are willing to pay for the car "as is." I'd feel comfortable to pay around $10-$12K to get a deal, perhaps more if I really wanted this car badly. Keep in mind, after you drove it for 15 years it won't really matter much if you paid $12K or $13,5K.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Friday, May 10, 2013 - 03:43 pm:

I saw that '13 come into the swap at BF and was sad to hear it was already sold.
I like the '14 and think the starting price for the seller is reasonable but as always the negotiation will bring about the true value.
I like it and would love to have a brass touring. Every early car will have mix of parts for during its life since the factory.

Buy it, fix it, and drive it and be happy!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, May 10, 2013 - 04:17 pm:

That 1913 appears to have a 17 or later front spring. After all these decades, it's rare to see a T with all its parts of the same year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, May 10, 2013 - 06:52 pm:

Considering the work needed (and as far as you'd want to go + the fact that it's brass I'm with $7500/8000


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wilber Elliott on Friday, May 10, 2013 - 07:28 pm:

I talked to the guy this morning and pleaded my case, explaining in detail the costs that would have to go into the car just to make it drivable and he said the best he could do was 14K. He said he would have to talk to other siblings to see if this was agreeable and get back to me. I told him I would go as high as 12K but I don't think he will budge. Too bad, cause I really like the car!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Friday, May 10, 2013 - 07:33 pm:

Have you made him a firm offer for 12K cash? Money talks sometimes.

Make the offer and you will see if 12K buys it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, May 10, 2013 - 07:37 pm:

Too much Wilber. I think 12's too much too. my $0.02. I think it'll be a couple of grand easy to get it really nice/driveable. You have to think about that too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wilber Elliott on Friday, May 10, 2013 - 08:07 pm:

Yes, I think it's a wee bit high too but I REALLY like the car and the challenge! Yes, I told him I had cash and a trailer and could come out next weekend but he said he might come down to 14K, but needed to check with the siblings first. There's no way I'm going that high - 12 is my absolute limit and I really don't think anyone else in the Model T community would be willing to pay that much for a car that needs that much work. I've seen plenty of other '14's with more going for them for that kind of money so another one will turn up. I think the guy believes the car is worth a pile of money just because it's a 99 year old T. As always, thanks for all the helpful insight and I will update my progress.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Friday, May 10, 2013 - 08:54 pm:

This one is on the swap site for $14,000 it has new wood kit installed, new upholstery, new black paint...ect. Pretty nice T
I was really interested in it but its 1000 miles away from me...! But still a great deal for someone... NOTE:: I'm not connected to this car or owner in any way. Hollar at Dan 860 564-2490


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Friday, May 10, 2013 - 08:54 pm:

This one is on the swap site for $14,000 it has new wood kit installed, new upholstery, new black paint...ect. Pretty nice T
I was really interested in it but its 1000 miles away from me...! But still a great deal for someone... NOTE:: I'm not connected to this car or owner in any way. Hollar at Dan 860 564-2490


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Friday, May 10, 2013 - 09:18 pm:

Wilbur,

Where are you? This car appears to be so much better for the money...car in CT.
Check the classifieds - (and thank Steve for finding it).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wilber Elliott on Friday, May 10, 2013 - 09:45 pm:

I did call on that one and it looks good but I live in Michigan so it would be another grand to ship it here. I really thought the first car was a done deal and it was located in Indiana - a lot closer. I will have to look over the one in CT again. I don't think the seller is willing to dip below 14K, though. I made him a cash offer of 10 but he said he had more into it than that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, May 10, 2013 - 10:09 pm:

He's in for a rude awakening. He's in the same boat with the rest of us. Everybody has more into it than we'll get out of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Friday, May 10, 2013 - 11:51 pm:

Wilber Elliott:

I think $14,000 is in the ball park and if you don't buy it you will regret it later. I have let some 14 tourings go for a lot less and regret it. I could have been driving one of them for a long time. Stop and think how often do you get a chance at a 14 touring. I have my eye on a 14 touring that I believe is coming up for sale soon. If it goes higher than $14,000 I will pay it

picture


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Saturday, May 11, 2013 - 07:02 pm:

I think you should buy it for 14K.
Six months from now you won't miss the money but you'll have a beautiful car that you can use.


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