Now my engine has been rebuilt, engine is back in car and has oil, water and gasoline. Any tips for the first start? Carburetor adjust? Spark/gas lever adjust?
Always start with full retard and it will want more gas at first.
When you get it started just run for about one minute and turn it off. That way, the oil thrown up by the flywheel will have a chance to run down the oil pipe to the front of the engine and into the transmission parts. After a few minutes start it up again and run to full operating temperature. Re torque the head to 50 ft lbs. Now you are ready to go on some slow drives. Be very careful to keep the coolant level up and don't let the engine overheat. Drive about 25 MPH. Drive a few miles and then re-torque the head again to 50 ft lbs.
After you drive it a few hundred miles, you can go faster. When the head stays at 50 ft lbs after driving, you don't need to re torque it again.
After you get about 500 miles on it change the oil. Listen for connecting rod knocks. Sometimes they loosen up after a short while if they weren't making perfect contact all the way around the high spots will wear. If they knock, adjust them.
Usually after you adjust the rods one time, they won't knock for many miles.
The transmission bands might also need adjustment from time to time. After they wear in, they usually will go for a year or more without further adjustment.
How much the carburetor needle should be open?
Start first time with 1 1/2 turns from closed, then wind back down to 1 1/4 or 1 1/8 when it is warm.
Okay, thanks. I will check carburetor and spark plugs, then I hope it will start.
It will probably be tight at first, so if you have a starter, use that for the initial start. After running it in you will need to re-torque the head bolts (about 50 lbs.) and check the other bolts as well. The heat and vibration tends to loosen them so it is essential to occasionally check them to be sure they are sufficiently tight.
The below charts have been posted many times, but since you asked, perhaps it is time to post them again. Jim Patrick
Here are two good, informative threads on starting and driving and owning a Model T. Jim Patrick
www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/149452.html See especially, Hap Tucker's July 5, 2010, 6:01 posting with many useful past threads for the new owner.
It wont start..
Checked the ignition, fires 1-2-3-4 and 1 one when piston has started going down. Gas goes to carburetor.
It just goes round, fires couple times and I think fires back because engine stops turning and slowly starts again. All this tested with the start motor.
Even if I crank it longer, it wont wet the spark plugs. So what to try next?
I already disassembled the carburetor, and I think its fine..
Did you choke it? If the spark plugs aren't wet yet it may need more gas - try open up the main jet on the carb some more. You can also try with starting fluid (ether in a spray can from the gas station)
Firing order should be 1 2 4 3.
I'd re-check the firing order. As Steve says it should be 1-2-4-3.
Once that's worked out I think I'd just try priming it first by turning it over at least two full revolutions with the ignition off and the choke pulled. Then release the choke, turn on the ignition and give it a try. It sounds like you're close. I don't think it's much more than getting the feel of what it wants to start.
The choke is used for priming the motor. Close the choke and turn the motor a couple of revolutions with the key off. Now open the choke, turn the key on and try starting it. Depending on your motor open the throttle 1/4 to 1/3 open for priming and starting. If gas runs out of the carb when choking, that's normal. Some motors/carbs require choking every time you start even warm, some don't. You will need to find the best combination of choke/throttle for starting your car as each one is a little different.
Yep, I think I had the firing order wrong, now I have to wait a bit to get my battery charged. I'll let you know after that.
Changed two wires from coils, green / blue were at wrong places. Started up right away!
I am so happy right now!
How about that carburetor adjust, I just run it on battery but at slow rpm I can't tell any difference in the engine sound when I turn it?
I also noticed that my generator works also first time since 2000, amp meter works.. I cant wait to get carburetor and gears to be adjusted.
Funny how we ALL have the same feeling about a first time start isn't it ?
Yep. Switching the green and blue would change it from 1-2-3-4 to 1-2-4-3 as Steve Pitts first pointed out. Congratulations. Jim Patrick
But how about that carburetor adjust? I ran the car only with battery and tried to adjust carburetor, but didnt notice any difference in engine sound.
As the engine loosens up, it will run smoother and idle better making it easier to adjust the carburetor to its "sweet spot". Idle the engine down fairly slow with the throttle first. Then turn the fuel mixture adjustment on the top of the T carburetor (take your pick; "down", "clockwise", "right-hand", "leaner", etc) until the engine begins to slow or miss a bit. Stop and listen for a minute, you may have to turn the adjustment back or "richer" before the engine dies. After a minute, try turning it "leaner" again to see if if the engine slows or misses or stumbles again.
When you find that magic spot where any more lean will cause the engine to stumble, open the adjustment ("richer") about 1/8 of a turn. That is about as close to the perfect spot as I know how to get. It will change a bit as the engine loosens up. It will also vary from day to day due to temperature and humidity, as well as the mood of the T.
Congratulations! Starting up after a major rebuild or a long sleep is always great.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Thanks for the advice. After I get my car out of the carage I will write here or atleast post link to small project story of my car.
Now I have started also running engine with magneto and it works also. But I think that it isnt running with all four cylinders all the time.
When it was running I stopped each coil with finger and number 1 didnt effect to running sound. I have there new coil from Snyders, should it be adjusted some how before use?
Unless one has the proper equipment, there is almost no way for the average T owner to adjust his coils to their most efficient adjustment by sound alone. That is why you should consider sending your four (4) coils to Ron Patterson for adjustment. When they come back you will definitely notice a difference for the better. It's too late for you now, on this rebuild, but anyone doing a full overhaul should have their magneto coil rebuilt by Wally of "Total Recoil". Jim Patrick
It's a pity new coils are sold without being properly calibrated on a HCCT or a strobo-spark..
You got some good advice in a thread last year: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/312559.html?1347980770
You can send your coils to Michael Deichmann in Denmark for proper adjustment, still don't know about any coil rebuilder in Finland or Sweden?
we know the coils are new, and we know where they came from. How do we know that they were not adjusted correctly?
Maybe I've missed it in the post, but that's not a conclusion I automatically come to.
an earlier post about plugs not being wet might be a clue, and I'd swap coils and see if problem follows coil or stays at #1. If it stays at #1, then I'd check for an intake leak.
The problem stays at the same cylinder.
A single cylinder running part time could be a rough spot or dirt in the timer. It could be a high resistance short in the timer. It could be an occasional short against the timer post. It could be a bad connection in the wire from the timer to the coil box. It could be one of the connectors inside the coil box. It could be a carbon track in the coil box wood (unless one of the plastic replacements was used). It could be a bad solder joint on the spark plug wire (two ends). It could be cross-fire from one wire to another. It could be a defect in the spark plug (cracked insulator?)
Did I miss any? All of those things, and not one of them is the coil itself. High voltage connections (after the coil) can be easily checked at night or in a dark garage (keeping a flashlight in your hand makes the process much easier). Look for arcing or light around all the connectors and the spark plug insulator. I had a cold solder joint on a plug wire once that looked good. But in the very dark only, there was an arc ring all the way around the solder that could barely be seen.
Clean and carefully check the timer, be sure it is properly lubed (depends upon which timer you have). Pull the coils out of the way and check the tension and clearance for all three clips for that cylinder inside the coil box. About three or four feet of stranded wire with an alligator-clip on each end is a good diagnostic tool to bypass failed connections.
You can do it. I know you can.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Wayne gave some good ideas. Along the same like here is some things to try:
Switch wiring from timer and spark plugs on #1 and #2 on the coil box. Check to see if #1 is still missing.
Switch spark plugs and see if the problem follows a plug.
Check compression on #1 and compare with others. The simple way is to check this is by feel when pulling the hand crank.
Adjust the carb mixture leaner and richer. Sometimes #1 likes to be a little different the the others.
I was going to suggest checking compression. Could be valve hanging up. No 1 cylinder runs cold, check for firing at a little higher RPM. I have found at low RPM my No 1 cylinder doesn't show much change when I short it out, like the rest till I rev the motor some.
Some engines are too tight to turn over easily when first started.
I just had one like that and took out #1 and #4 spark plug to give it a running start.
It soon started and I let it run a few minutes, then replace #1 and #4 and removed #2 and #3.
The engine soon started again and was run a few minutes that way.
Then I put the spark plugs back in and it started on all four plugs after that.
I started testing with Jim's advice and I noticed that whole timer moves up and down while car running, what causes that?
Is this correct? Should it be deeper in the hole?
I re-assembly it, but still when engine runs, timer cover moves. Whats the problem? And it also wores out fast the timer cover.
I don't use a timer like that but this is my take on it:
I would remove the cam nut and see if you can reposition the retainer so it covers the pin.
The spot indicated in the above photo is too far in to be the pin. Looks to be a locking tab, see the split just below it. If the timer is moving back and forth could be uneven wear of the timer and/or the spring is too stiff under the contact brush. If it's moving side to side or up and down could be the brush has worn a path. Even with the timing cover a little off center the New Day type timer is more forgiving. Do you have the bolt that holds the timer retainer tight?
I repositioned the pin retainer and it covers the pin. Still the timer is moving, should the retainer be different? Here is a pic from inside timer, I think the cam nut also touches the cover.
So new timer,brush and retainer?
Now that we see the inside of the cover, ya that looks pretty worn. The cap that holds the brush on may be too thick moving the nut out too far. You are getting movement in the cover because the nut or the pin retainer cap is rubbing on it in at least one place. You could for a quick fix, cut a couple of sand paper disk the size of the inside of the timer, cut a wood disk the same size add a handle and sand the surface as flat as possible. Then I would do one of two other things, grind a little of the material away where it's rubbing or make and add a shim to go between the timer and timing gear cover. The correct brush timer cap is made of thinner material then the one that is on it now.
Tomorrow I should have new type timer and roller, so lets test then again.
The problem that I can see in the picture is that your timer brush is not seated fully back against the ledge on the camshaft but is setting against the cam nut rim. This is usually because the hub of the cam gear is too thick. You may have the same issue with a roller timer so measure the distance away from the bottom surface where the timer housing sets to the edge of the roller and make sure that when assembled the roller is going to run in the center of its proper track or you will have the same problem with the roller timer and destroy it rather quickly.. The timer you showed is a New Day timer and if the opposite side of that timer has a letter "S" on the face of it just below the timer rod entry hole - that is a troublesome timer even if installed correctly which it is not as evidenced by the picture. The back side of that brush could be ground a bit to allow that New Day timer brush to set back where it is supposed to go but don't waste time with it if you are going to swap in a roller timer.
Now I have changed timer to roller type and also changed the pin and pin retainer. This way the timer cover sits perfectly. Also missfire problems are solved. Also I adjusted clucth and first gear.
Now the car is working! I drove only about 1 kilometer, because I have do the inspection tomorrow. Thanks all from help, I will send some driving pics tomorrow.
So today I took the to inpection, all good. After driving home car started backfire or missfire, I dont know the terms. And also ran really hot, it boiled at home. I also here a knocking sound from engine if i advance the spark over half of the movement. Also I think that cylinders 3 and 4 are running hotter than first ones. What to do?
Sounds like you need to adjust the fuel mixture on the carb and also the timing. Incorrect settings here can result in both problems you site, either together or independently. Jim Patrick
In case people missed my parenthetical comments about also starting a new engine in my recent posting about a leak from the aluminum hogshead, I was not able to hand crank the engine to start it. Cutting to the chase, I sprayed starter fluid directly into #1 cylinder through the spark plug hole and cranked the engine again. When compression reached that cylinder, the engine started right up and continued running with only a minor adjustment of the GAV. I'm sure fuel was not being choked properly into the cylinders until the vacuum of a running engine sucked it into the cylinders from the carburetor. The engine has started easily after one or two hand crank pulls ever since (three days ago). Just a little trick to try for those guys starting freshly rebuilt engines: save your back, cranking arm and frustration by using starter fluid in a cylinder the first time, not sprayed into the carb's throat (didn't help).
About starting fluid, it can damage an engine, if it will not run on gas there is something wrong. The only use I see for starting fluid is cleaning parts and to help start old, cold and tired diesel engines. Just my opinion.
Jim Thode -
I can't see where a one-second blast of starting fluid, one time, is going to do much if any damage to the Model T engine, or any engine. It was only necessary to do this the first time the engine was started after a rebuild. Spraying it into the carburetor's throat did nothing. It had to be sprayed directly into a cylinder for it to take effect. The engine has started with the normal gasoline flow ever since. I guess the starting fluid kind of "burped" the gravity flow system and got the gasoline sucking up into the cylinders. Starting fluid has been around longer than most of us on this planet. If it were that bad for an engine, I believe it wouldn't still be sold in every automotive store in this country after the first frost of the year has hit. I do agree, however, that prolonged and chronic use of starter fluid to get an engine started indicates problems with the car somewhere and might not be good for an engine day after day, week after week. At least with our spark plugs in a horizontal plane and easily accessible, one could rotate which cylinder got a blast of starter fluid during the colder months if Lizzie got balky on us. That would spread the wear factor out by a factor of four. Thanks for the input, though.