New Challenge

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: New Challenge
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Sunday, May 19, 2013 - 03:29 pm:

A few weeks ago, someone called me about a Model T he had in his garage for about 20 years and never had the chance to drive it. During the years he asked a few mechanics to get it going. Some works were done but it was never driven.
Last week I get the car home and start to work on it.
The body is 1926/27 roadster, engine and frame, I think, is 11/ 1923. Engine has a distributor. The oil pan is fitted with two 3/4 oil pipes going from the front to the magneto part of the pan.
The pipe at the right has a 1/2 pipe straight up for 1" with a oil cap of a mower saying oil lever. Oil was filled up till the cap. As I turned the the engine over with the electric starter oil came out the engine everywhere specially at the back of the transmission. I drained the oil and found about 10L oil. I start to take the engine out of the car and at each part I take off I found other strange things ,see photos. I think I will need a lot of advice from this forum to get this job to a good end.

Regards
Andre
Belgium























Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, May 19, 2013 - 03:34 pm:

Looks like you will have a nice car when you are done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Sunday, May 19, 2013 - 04:19 pm:

The shim on the U-J housing looks neat, must have been quite a lot of play. I have one on the coupe, mine looks thinner but serves the same purpose. The water pump looks a problem, I hope it is not frozen and you can find packing parts. The generator seems to have an external regulator, probably a local (European ?) manufacturer. The carb should be a vaporizer but many change them to the Holley NH, the mixture rod looks a little inconvenient but should be OK if the car is used at constant altitude.
Looks like you should have a little fun, lets hope the motor and back axle babbit are in good condition after such a long hibernation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Sunday, May 19, 2013 - 04:43 pm:

Tony,
The shim in not all in the U-J housing. The 4th bearing is missing. I hope the car wasn't driven that way for the crankshaft. I hope to rebuild the carburetor with a swivel and replace the water pump with the Original fan set up.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, May 19, 2013 - 04:55 pm:

Good luck with it. That fuse block is the second worst design of the industrial era.

There appears to be a rubber cushion under the rear motor mount. Those will allow the engine to rotate enough to put strain on the radiator, especially if the upper hose is not new and flexible.

I hope the low band return spring is not down in the transmission. I don't use return springs, however: the wood band liners do the job.

This will be a worthy challenge that will give you a lot of satisfaction when all done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ex trooper on Sunday, May 19, 2013 - 06:34 pm:

WAYYYYY too much oil. I like the low head with the tall bolts and spacers. Without the 4th main it probably vibrated so bad that it wasnt driven much. That shim was probably trying to make up for the missing bearing (unknown to the mechanic(s) working on it). Thats a lot of the overfilled oil leak as well.
Those rubber motor mounts also changed the engine angle on the front mount. Get a 26-7 carb and adjuster through the firewall. They really do need constant adjusting! troop


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 12:03 am:

Car has a Rocky Mountain Brake set up but the link between the pedal and the brake mechanism is missing. Do someone have good pictures of this linkage?? One of the rear wheels has two loose spokes. Can I just replace them or shall I rebuild the wheel with new spokes??
How to set up the ignition with the distributor and one set of contact points? Can I buy new points for this distributor??

Thanks
Probably other questions will follow??
Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 02:14 am:

Am I correct in my rapid estimate that 10L is about twenty-one quarts of oil!? More than five gallons?!
Do check the mechanicals of this car. Someone did not know much about what they were doing.
That U-joint ball and cap really needs to be fixed right. But you knew that. The funny thing is, one of my longest-time best friends once told me that his first model T (back in the 1950s) was missing the fourth-main-ball-cap. It had been driven that way quite a bit by this time. He had worked on the motor, but at that time didn't know something was supposed to be there. One day he was at a friend's house, saw one and said "What is this?" He then got a lesson in model T engineering and was sent home with a fourth main and instructions to install immediately.
Otherwise, your new car looks better in the photos than I expected after reading what you said.
It looks nice! Congratulations.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 02:26 am:

Wayne, 10 liters is 10.5 quarts, it's pints you'll get 21 of. Still more than double of what should be there..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 04:38 am:

Looks like the huge pipe leading to the front has a lawn mower oil dipstick in it. Like they installed it to keep the oil level way up near the crank front seal to make sure it got lots of oil. Might be one of those ideas that sounded good at the time but doesn't really work out in reality.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 08:06 am:

I do like that belt drive generator.
wow,somebody really overfilled it with oil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 12:04 pm:

At the outside it is looking great but what I found inside till now is not right at all.
I will take out the engine and go over it as I use to do for a total rebuild.
I never used a distributor on a T. Can someone walk me through the setup for a model T?

Thanks
Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 12:12 pm:

I call them disturb-u-tors, Andre, as the presence of them disturbs a lot of people on this Forum.

What brand is it, and are there any numbers on it? There were dozens or hundreds of different ones made in the T era, and lots of modern Bosch sold today. I run a Bosch disturbutor of my own adaptation. It came out of a Porsche 914.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 01:10 pm:

Ricks, I don't want to disturb anyone with the "DISTURB-U-TORS", just looking for the right way to set it up.
On the shaft I found D.A.S.A. that's all till now.
The numbers on it I put my self.
This is how I intend to set it up.
First cylinder 4 behind upper dead point. Turn the distributor till the points just open. Controlled with a test light (21W/12V)should go out when points opens. This will give me the ignition point for the handle all up.
Points open 0.4mm

Andre
Belgium





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike peterson on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 05:21 pm:

are them 21" white tires or 30 " white tires, looks very nice ,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 06:06 pm:

Andre, each step towards originality is a step towards more fun and reliability (IMHO). The first thing I would do is to put the correct transmission/cylinder block to frame brace and pan strengthening brackets back in place.

Once you've done that you can start running it and having fun. If it were mine the next step would be to toss out the distributor, alternator, water pump, coil, Vee belts, and any lawn mower parts you can find. The correct parts are readily available and inexpensive.

You can see that the dpo ("Dread Previous Owner") had a lot of questionable things done to it and still never drove it. The closer you get it to stock the more reliable and more fun it will be... don't ask how I know!

Fortunately the dpo didn't bugger up the exterior, that's a nice looking '26='27.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 10:00 am:

Mike,
The car is fitted with 30" white tires. Just wondering how can I get them white again?? They are yellow now.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 02:01 pm:

Hello all,
I just pulled the engine out and took of the oil pan. All I found you can see in the photos.

Enjoy

Andre
Belgium













Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 02:25 pm:

Why is the cam gear pink?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 02:45 pm:

I don't know, I just found it that way.
Watch also the safety wiring and the way it is fit. The camshaft bearings are aluminium. The splash irons and the way they are fit.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 04:07 pm:

Is the crank gear only meshing with 3/4 of the cam gear?

Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 04:22 pm:

Bill, the crank and cam gear are meshing the right way I think. I only don't know in which material the cam gear is made, It is metal, no plastic or fiber.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 04:29 pm:

The timing gear is anodized aluminum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 04:33 pm:

Thanks Jerry, Do you have experience with this??

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Monday, May 27, 2013 - 01:23 am:

As it was raining again yesterday I started to take the transmission apart. Again I found strange stuff in it.

First of all The inner clutch drum was moving freely up and down for about 10mm on the transmission shaft and the bolt was taken out by hand without any tool. The drum was machined to turn free over the shaft, only the key was holding it to turn. Under the the clutch there should be 3 washers, no washers to find.

Took out the drums and the drive gear stays on the flywheel together with the 3 triple gears.
Again the drive gear was machined to slide over the his shaft.

The triple gears were taken out and there bushing stays on the axles, press fitted. The gears were machined to turn freely over the bushing.
Lucky I have a shelf with a lot of good used parts.

I was thinking I saw it all but no way. In the pistons the wrist pin bolts are not secured. As I was putting split pins in the bolts I found two that I could take out without a tool.

I decided to take the engine apart till the last bolt and build it up again.
Lucky for the parts suppliers.

Have a fine day
Andre
Belgium





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 07:01 am:

Hey All,

Just to keep it alive.

Andre
Belgium











Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 03:35 pm:

Looks like theres a chunk missing from the brake drum surface. Not sure I would use that, It would probably shred the band by the time you got out of the driveway....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 09:26 pm:

Pat,
I know about the chunk but:
The car is not mine and I show the owner the brake drum. He told me a story about his father in law grinding the edges so they were smooth and they will not harm the band and ... . He ordered already for about $1,500.- of parts, I should do the job with that, I didn't have a large drum on my shelf so it isn't changed.
The band in the car were new but lined with a strange material, no wood , no Kevlar, no cotton. It looks like the stuff the Jack Rabbit clutch is made off.
We will see.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard Paulsen, San Buenaventura, Calif on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 10:07 pm:

I'm all for saving money where it makes sense, but that brake drum will cost your customer dearly in the long run, me thinks. Hope for him that I'm mistaken.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 01:29 am:

You might try a narrow lining on the brake drum to see if it avoids the missing chunk.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 01:35 am:

Pat and Bernard,
Forgot to tell, the car have Rocky Mountain Brakes. I will set the brakes so that the RMB will act first and the transmission brake just after. (It should be done that way, I think.) The stress on the drum and band will not be that high.
The owner is not a customer, just a friend. I am not a business man, I am just trying to help and get his car on the road again after 20 years of garage sitting and a few strange stories.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 11:58 am:

Seth

the cam gear is likely anodized aluminum


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 02:26 pm:

I would cut and shape a piece of steel to fit in the missing area and braze it in. However, hard lining and light use may be okay, but I wouldn't like it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 05:13 pm:

It is coming back together, one piece at a time.
Hope it will run fine.

Andre
Belgium



















Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 07:18 am:

Hey All,

A couple of weeks ago I get it back together and thought I found all the surprises in this car.
During the last test drive, yesterday, The only problem left was very bad brakes. The car have rocky mountain brakes and should stop better as my stock 1926 Touring.
I tried to readjust the brakes but couldn't make it work as it should be.
After taking an hour or so back from the car I looked for a few pictures of rocky mountain brakes on the net and in the books I have and compare them with the brakes on the car.
On the pictures the lever that actions the brake on the wheels is going up. On the car this lever is going down.
Could it be, the left brake is mounted on the right side of the car and the right on the left side??

Will send some photos soon, I am just waiting till the rain stops.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 07:50 am:

The brake lever should be up, as in this picture of a 1926 rear end. Note - this car has accessory outside brakes too.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 08:11 am:

Royce,
The standard brakes are missing on the runabout. It have just the rocky mountain brakes on the outside of the drums. Can you send some photos of your accessory outside brakes setup? It will be help full for getting the brakes set up right now.

Thanks

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 10:21 am:

As promised before, a few photos of the RMB The way I found them on this car. Watch also the rod bolts on the left side were not tied up and I could screw them out by hand.
It is raining again. As I had to work on the car outside I will put it back together tomorrow morning and test it again.

Andre
Belgium









Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 10:32 am:

I noticed in one of the early photos that instead of having a bolt for the adjustment of the clutch lever, there is a second cam that rides on the handbrake crossbar cam, neat!

cam


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 10:42 am:

Hey Mark, I've seen a lot of people swap that bolt to a carriage bolt with the rounded head against the cam. Same idea as the picture. Although the picture looks like the brake's cross-shaft cam has been replaced with something non-stock.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 10:51 am:

Mark,
The engine was mounted in the back on two silent blocks about 1" thick, that's why there was an extension on the clutch lever. I made it all original again and made also the linkage between the brake pedal and the second cam on the handbrake crossbar.
I understood now why this linkage wasn't there when the car arrived here. The only right working brake was in the transmission. By mounting the RMB the wrong way they couldn't make it work.

I hope I will get it save tomorrow so I can get the car back to the owner.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 11:05 am:

Your Rocky mountain brakes should stop very well in reverse!:-) You indeed have them reversed left to right and right to left. The rotation of the wheel should self actuate them, instead it is fighting against your foot.

You are doing a good thing for a friend. I am in the process of also helping a friend fix his T. That's what good friends are for.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 04:05 am:

As Wayne mentioned not having the 4th main in place does not mean that you will be able to tell it's missing.

Having seen over the years 3 cases of the 4th main missing or chewed out and the motor running smoothly with no signs of vibration it would be a good idea to do a check to see if its there if you don't know the history of the vehicle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 04:29 am:

Peter,
I took it all apart and there was no 4th main. As the engine runs oil was leaking out of the rear of the engine.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 05:32 am:

Peter, if you look at the pictures that Andre posted throughout the thread, it looks as though he installed a ball bearing ball cap. At least it looks to be one of the bronze caps with a ball bearing. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 08:03 am:

Andre - this is the right rear. I pulled the wheel because it had a leaking rear seal. I was surprised to also find one brake spring broken!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 08:36 am:

Andre, David,
You missed my point. It was mentioned that if the 4th main was missing the engine would vibrate and be out of balance, not so it can run great with no hint that the bearing is not there.

Without it the end result has to be bad, but if there is no hint its not there and you do not know its missing eventually you are in for a surprise.

I think everyone would agree that any new purchase of a mobile car ( or even one that has just a bit of work done) needs to have a good check over to make sure all sorts of stupid things are not going on. We have certainly seen enough in posts here.

This Model T Andre has is good one, the Rocky brakes is a great example!!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 09:23 am:

I just finished the brake rebuild and made a test drive. Very good brakes now, all is working well and the car is running great now.
Thank you all for the all the information and advice you give the last two months, it was a great help for me to make this story happy ending.
Photos of the last job will follow today.

Have a fine day all
Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 09:50 am:

As promised, a few photos.
First the RMB the way I have put them on the car this morning.
Second some general views of the car after the last test drive.

Again thanks to you all for the help
Andre
Belgium

















Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 11:17 am:

Royce,

What kind of rear axle bearing is shown in your picture? It doesn't look like a Hyatt.

Ted


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 11:43 am:

Ted
Isn't that the rear wheel bearing that is notorious for breaking rear axles and people losing the rear wheel. I have heard of numerous cases of that happening with something that looks like that.
Les


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 01:13 pm:

Ted an Les,
On the 1926 Runabout the rear axle bearings should be Mac's T2508AO bearing.
This was on a label I found in the trunk. I didn't put it in myself and HOPE it is done the right way.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 02:28 pm:

Andre
The issue with the new replacement "cartridge" type axle bearing is this; The bearing MUST be locked securely to the axle. Generally this involves rotating a eccentric ring and maybe tightening a set screw. If it is not locked securely then it will fairly rapidly wear a "notch" into the axle and there have been a number of incidents of the axle breaking and the wheel departing.
OK so here comes the next issue. If the eccentric is securely locked they can be a real problem to unlock WHEN you need to go back inside the rear axle.
The design is meant for farm and industrial machinery where you have good access to the bearing and can use a cutting torch if necessary to remove the eccentric ring


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, August 14, 2013 - 10:48 pm:

Mac's T2508AO Bearing:

Model T Ford Rear Outer Axle Accessory Bearing - Modern Style Model T Ford Rear Outer Axle Accessory Bearing - Modern Style
Year: 1909-1927
Part #: T2508AO
$200.00

I have no experience with this bearing. Others may have.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, August 15, 2013 - 08:32 am:

The rear axle bearing set on my '15 Ruxtell is a sealed roller that came from Bearing and Chain supply in Dallas about 40 years ago. Between all the cars it has been in this rear end probably has 50,000 trouble free miles on it. The housings had to be turned slightly to install the bearings. The axles had to be turned down slightly. There's a locking feature inside each grease cup and on the front of the axle housings. A testament to my Dad's creativity and machine work.


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