Overheating on 3th and 4th cylinders

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Overheating on 3th and 4th cylinders
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rodrigo Nunes Ricardo on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 07:04 pm:

After a long sleeping (since WWII), we put my engine to run again, but cylinder No. 3 is overheating
severely, and also No. 4, however with less intensity. What's going on? Engine valves?

What can I do to find the cause of this overheating?

Thank you!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 07:07 pm:

Did you clear water passages in head? Mouse nest ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 07:21 pm:

Mouse next was my initial thought too.
I have a brass radiator that has sat for maybe 50 years, 2 years here, when l installed it into the car, it got very hot on one side and cold on the other, after removing that radiator and inspecting it, l ( my wife and l ) pulled about 1 kg ( 2,25 lbs ) of soggy mouse home out of the top tank.
How they get in is one thing, what they do whilst in there certainly is another.
Clean it all out if its mouse house remains, it's a stinky job!!!



My other brass radiator is now 100 % and has gone back into the car,not before using hot water from the kettle down the top hose to clean out the remnants of the other radiator but the amount of dirt and crap that came out after boiling it 2 or 3 times is where l guess all of the blockage problems with old radiators begins.
So l guess Flush, clean Flush clean is the method to get it as clean as possible.
Poke around the block with the head off with a bit of wire should get you well on the way to a reasonably clean water jacket.

Cheers
David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rodrigo Nunes Ricardo on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 07:55 pm:

Folks, the hole system was cleaned up, there is no mouse nest or any kind of dirty anymore, it was done before we put engine to run again...
Valves, anyone?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Lyon, PDX, OR. on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 08:09 pm:

Sometimes a blown headgasket will make side by side cylinders run hot. Don.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 08:12 pm:

Rodrigo,
If the back two cylinders were sucking air at the intake manifold/block joint, then they would run too lean and run hot.

It is easy to check for intake manifold leaks. Here is some ideas:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/309152.html?1346456643

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rodrigo Nunes Ricardo on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 08:25 pm:

Thank you, Jim. So, it can't be a valve problem? What do you say?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 08:41 pm:

I think with a valve problem you would lose power but it should not run hotter then the front two cylinders.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rodrigo Nunes Ricardo on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 09:11 pm:

I'll check the intake manifold (block joint is brand new) on next days, but, I have to ask again, is there any other hypothesis to explain why cylinder 3 and 4 are overheating?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 09:49 pm:

Retarded timing. What kind of ignition does it have?

Saudos a Brasil. Hope I got that right... Been a LONG time since I had a go at Portugues, and even longer since I studied it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 09:51 pm:

We had visited this temp difference once before, the conclusion was that no 3 and 4 could run hotter as much an 10 degrees on a good engine checked with a laser thero.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rodrigo Nunes Ricardo on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 09:56 pm:

Ricks, it have a distributor, but time is just OK, it was checked several times.
Agradecemos a saudacao em nossa lingua materna.

Kerry, we got a laser thermo too, and 240 C isn't OK on 3th cylinder...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 11:29 pm:

Your head gasket might be on backwards.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 04:57 pm:

Rodrigo,

Just where are you seeing 240C/464F? The exhaust manifold?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rodrigo Nunes Ricardo on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 09:04 pm:

Jerry, 3th cylinder, 240C...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 11:22 pm:

Rodrigo,
What temperature do you measure on #1, #2 and #4 cylinders?

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rodrigo Nunes Ricardo on Monday, May 27, 2013 - 09:07 pm:

Jim, #1 and #2 about 100C, #4 reaches almost 200C...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Rowles on Tuesday, May 28, 2013 - 05:07 am:

If you are seeing temperatures that high on the engine block at the cylinder wall, I would suggest the pistons are too tight(insufficient clearance). Did you check the piston/cylinder clearances and the piston ring end-gap before assembling the engine? Also, I would check the oil line for blockage as you may not be getting enough oil delivered to the front of the engine.....#4 cylinder may be getting some oil from the flywheel side but #3 may be not getting enough from the front-to-rear trickle down the tray if flow is reduced.....? I would take that engine apart and check everything carefully unless you find a simpler cause such as an air leak into the intake manifold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Tuesday, May 28, 2013 - 06:39 am:

Exhaust valve might be opening late, excessive clearance at lifter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rodrigo Nunes Ricardo on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 12:58 pm:

Folks, after several tests, we have no doubt that engine must be redone... It's sad...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 02:09 pm:

Rodrigo,
If you had your engine rebuilt and it is now over heating on #3 and #4 there is most likely just one simple issue that is causing your problem. Probably no need to rebuild the whole thing.

Some issues to consider:

It is normal for #3 and #4 to run hotter. See:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/365037.html?1370118547

Does the engine still turn over freely when it is hot? Maybe pistons or rings are too tight and binding when it is hot.

If there is an air leak on the intake for #3 and #4 it will run hotter.

Check the valves to make sure that that are opening correctly.

A restriction on the block or head water flow will make it run hot in the rear of the engine.


Like I said, it is just one simple issue, you just have to find it.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 05:32 pm:

I tend to agree with Jim T. What else tells you it needs a major redone? It is normal for the front cylinders to run cooler than the rear two because the cooler outside air blows in from the front and gets heated as it moves back resulting in less temperature differential to cool the further back it goes. Many Ts have minor troubles due to cylinder number one running too cool and fouling its spark plug because of this.
If it is pistons or rings too tight, that is a fairly easy "in car" fix.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 06:04 pm:

Here's why the front cylinders run cooler:



Note the extra distance the water has to travel for the rear cylinders.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 02:25 pm:

Just to add to what Wayne Sheldon just said about "airflow":

Many years ago, I worked as a detail draftsman (back when there were still draftsmen) in the International Harvester Advanced Engineering and Research Center in Hinsdale, Illinois. Specifically, I worked with a team of engineers and draftsmen in the farm equipment engine & transmission section. It was the opinion of IH engineers that approximately one third of engine cooling came from airflow over the engine. As Wayne said, it is obvious that the air becomes warmed as it flows rearward over the engine.

Also, my job was "Company Driver" in the USMC back in the "60's, and I distinctly remember getting in trouble for disobeying a direct order from a Gunnery Sgt. who INSISTED that I CLOSE the hood side panels on the 6x6 that I was driving on a field training exercise on a very hot day. Upon return to the armory after the exercise was concluded, I showed the "Gunny" in the USMC manual for that particular truck that the manual made a "big deal" out of keeping those hood side panels CLOSED as they aided airflow over the engine and helped prevent overheating of the engine, especially at slow speed out in the field. Probably the only time I got an apology from a Gunnery Sgt. and a compliment on "knowing my job"! (Frankly, it was merely a case of having read the manual during the often and famous "hurry up and wait" time that was so common in the military!)

Anyway, I think Wayne makes a good point ref "airflow" and I have always thought that this is a contributing factor in the common problem of #1 spark plug fouling, as it gets the most (and coolest) air before the rest of the engine! It is also why I'm not too much in favor of running without the fan!

Sorry to be so "wordy", but when you get a old as me, sometimes you've had actual experience to back up a few things,.........harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 02:34 pm:

Dang! I really screwed that up! The "Gunny" insisted that I OPEN the side panels to let heat out, and I knew that the manual had said to leave the panels CLOSED in order to aid airflow over and alongside of the engine to aid in cooling in hot weather and at slow speed!

Sheesh,......another "senior moment"! Knew what I meant but said it backwards! As if this wasn't too "wordy" already, right? Sorry,........harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rodrigo Nunes Ricardo on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 06:49 pm:

Folks, my engine "smokes", leaving a lot of white smoke, and oil is letting sparks wet...


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