I Thought I Knew My T's Birthdate.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: I Thought I Knew My T's Birthdate.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 03:37 pm:

I am not so sure now. I Thought it was 12/16/1913
These are the numbers on my 1914 T Run About.
Engine # 395707
Firewall Plaque # 371928
Engine Cast date 11/22/13
Stamped on wood under seat #131351...3 (M?) 14
Kick Plate has stamped into it M B
The documentation of owners with the T is:
Mr. Templin Marlin Washington 1914 - 1930
Mr. Birge Odessa Washington 1930 - 1988
Mr. Batelan (Mr. Birge's Nephew) 1988 - 2004
Myself 2004 -
Any Ideas?
Thanks mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 04:19 pm:

According to the encyclopedia: Tuesday, December 16, 1913 is correct for that engine number. But the firewall plaque number is for Thursday, November 13. Maybe Mr. Templin or Mr. Birge had a replacement engine installed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 04:43 pm:

The firewall number is always lower than the engine number if the plaque is original. That's because spare engines were serialized.

There's no relation between the firewall plaque and the dates of engine VIN's in the encyclopedia though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 04:44 pm:

Here is a copy of the oldest registration I have with the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 07:39 pm:

Wow, ten dollars was a lot of money back then!

Here's the registration from my '17 runabout from the year it was parked in a garage. It didn't leave that garage for over 25 years.

Seven dollars and fifty cents was about what the average man earned in two days labor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 09:47 pm:

July 1946 picture of my T Runabout. The man I bought it from Mr.Batelan is the 12 year old boy on the front fender.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Henrichs on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 01:16 am:

Mark,

I sent you a PM.

Dennis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 01:30 am:

It's good to see you guys have documentation and early pictures for your cars. I traced my 16 coupelet's first owner to a western Nebraska rancher. So far no pictures except for his cattle brand. 2nd owner was a automobile dealer in Stuart Nebraska, 3rd was my grandfather in 1953.

My mom titled the car in her name in the 90's and then I got it. Legally I'm the 4th owner even though she never started or drove the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 02:34 am:

Dennis
I don't know how to get your PM.
Mark
Mstewart5519@gmail.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Henrichs on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 02:43 am:

Hi Mark,

It should show up in your incoming email or possibly in your spam filter. If you don't find it let me know and I'll resend.

Dennis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 07:45 am:

Mark,

From: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm
Bruce (R.I.P.) shares:

“The engine number was also the serial number of the car. Engines were numbered when they were completed, and for the most part went into a chassis within a day or so. However, some engines were assembled and numbered at branch assembly plants. Highland Park would ship a block of engine-number records to an assembly plant and these engines might be made weeks or months afterwards. Consequently, engine numbers can only be used to date the "engine" NOT the car.”

But the engine serial number for many years [not all -- some of the records are not as complete as other years/months] can often give you a date that you know the car was made on or after. For the USA engines made 1913-1941 the engine serial number dates are accurate with the exception of the engines that were built at other than the main plant [i.e. where the engine serial number was sent to a branch plant and they built an engine there and stamped it using the engine number that was sent to them]. Ref page 501 of Bruce's "Model T Ford" (also on his CD). But still knowing the date the engine was likely made lets you know the car would not have been before the engine was made. Again – that only works if you know the engine was original to the car. And lots of engines have been and are still are being swapped out.

In the case of a 1914 there is also a "LESS than 25 per cent chance" that you might be able to find out when and where you car was shipped. Again all based on it having the original engine number. Royce was able to locate the shipping date for his 1913 – but it was not easy (hand written, poor penmanship, and organized by the dealer/branch and rather than just by serial number). Please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/72343.html and http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/322425.html?1353512324 It is a long shot and a lot of work – but if you found it you would know the date and where you car was shipped to.

Note for the cars 1,119 (Mar 3, 1909) to 70,702 ish (Sep 29, 1911) it is very easy to find the "birth date." They are listed on the original shipping documents that are available at the Benson Ford Archives. They list the date the car was assembled (and from memory they also list the shipping date).

And as the branches began to assemble more and more cars -- it could get very difficult to figure out when was the car assembled. I.e. was it when the main plant shipped the knocked down car and later mostly parts to the branch or when the branch assembled it?

Note you sometimes can also use the body date, if your car has one, to help establish a time frame. I.e. the car would NOT have been assembled before the body was produced. You mentioned your car has a number stamped into the wood. If you have a chance please post some photos and better yet, please also send me some high resolution photos of that number & area. My e-mail address is listed the third line down on my profile. Just click on my name and it is there. See also: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html

I believe if you stick with the month the engine was made and add the term "likely" you will often be close for many of the cars "IF" they had the original engine. Note there are some well documented original cars where the engine number and body number dates vary by over several months. In that case the oldest date would be the one you would want to use and still add the “likely” to the time frame.

It is great that you have so much of the history of your. Good luck on your search for additional clues.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 08:33 pm:

Hap
Here are the pictures of the numbers under the seat of my 14 T Runabout. Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 09:26 pm:

Dennis I did not get your e-mail. Mine is on an post above.
Thanks Mark Stewart


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 09:27 pm:

Royce,

Did the factory send complete serialized engines to the dealers during this time? I had thought that they were blank blocks or was that just spare blocks not numbered and complete engines were numbered?

Thank you,

Ken


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 10:40 pm:

For Ken,

As mentioned above, from: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm
Bruce (R.I.P.) shares:

“The engine number was also the serial number of the car. Engines were numbered when they were completed, and for the most part went into a chassis within a day or so. However, some engines were assembled and numbered at branch assembly plants. Highland Park would ship a block of engine-number records to an assembly plant and these engines might be made weeks or months afterwards. Consequently, engine numbers can only be used to date the "engine" NOT the car.”

When the engine was assembled into a an engine, transmission, head, pan, manifolds etc. by Ford USA regardless of where it was assembled it would receive a serial number. Engine blocks were shipped without having a serial number stamped on them.

Ref page 515 Bruce McCalley “Model T Ford” note under Jan 1918 entries which states: “Note: Engine record numbers, not engines, were shipped to Long Island, New York. Unnumberd “knocked down” (unassembled engine blocks were also shipped; the numbers to be stamped in upon completion. Actual dates of assembly of these engines is unknown.”

Ref page 523 McCalley under Dec 1919 entries which states: “Blocks of engine numbers and “knocked down” engines continued to be shipped to Long Island and to other assembly plants. The serial numbers are listed in the records but are not shown here after December, for they serve little purpose other than being of some interest. The production figures shown from here on are for Highland Park only. The differences between the serial numbers and the production numbers are due to the shipment to the branches.”

And on page 501 McCalley in the introduction he states, “…Groups of these engine number records (not engines) were also shipped out, and these numbers were then stamped on the engines when they were completed at some Ford branch. Some of the se record number shipments were noted, but most were not. As a result, while the Highland Park (or, later the Rouge Plant) assembled engines on the days indicated, other blocks of engines might have been assembled days or weeks later. Where blocks of numbers are noted “omitted,” theses number records went to other assembly plants; quite often to Manchester, England.”

Clearly early on engines were assembled in the Dearborn area of Michigan. But exactly when Ford began shipping engine parts for assembly at other locations I do not have much information on that. We know that Ford Canada gained the capability to machine and assemble the parts into complete engine assemblies (engine and transmission) in May 1913 see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/55246.html?1210428134 and Kevin Mowle posted a note about them May of this year also.

I do not know when the first Ford USA plants began assembling Model T engines and transmissions and stamping them with serial numbers. Hopefully Royce or someone else can add some details on when that occurred or likely occurred. And hopefully they can provide a reference were additional information can be found.

I also do not have much information on when the different Ford Branches began assembling their own cars. They would have used knocked down kits initially but as time went on by 1926 many of them were marked with an “A” for assembly plant as well as a Star with an “A” in it for manufacturing plant. Below is a Map from the 1926 Ford Industries:





For Mark,

Below are the photos of the numbers you sent to me that are on your front seat wooden frame.

3M14



And 131351 or something similar.



Also please send a photo or let us know how they are etc.

At this point my initial guess would be the 3 M 14 is for Mar 1914. That is not that far from the Dec 16, 1913 engine serial number date. Not as close as I would have hoped but still within reason. But that is ONLY A GUESS based on a gut feel. We need to look at some additional MB marked touring cars from around that time to see what numbers they may have on their front seat frame and how they relate to the engine numbers etc. In some cases we can rule out some guesses for example 131351 cannot mean 1913 the 13 month there isn’t a 13th month.

If anyone has some additional 1913-1916 MB cars with numbers on the seat frame – please let us know what they are and the approximate date of the engine was assembled (or the date the engine records have listed and yes it is possible it was assembled later).

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cutoff


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 02:27 am:

Hap What does the M B stamp on the kick panel in my 1914T Runabout mean? I thought only one letter represented the body maker? Thanks Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 08:10 am:

I do not know what the M B embossed letters stand for. I’ve been trying to figure that out for sometime now. If anyone has some leads or answers I would love to hear more about them.

My theory “guess” for the past 5 or so years is: We know that both Monroe and Beaudett (also spelled Beaudette and also referred to as Pontiac by Ford USA records) produced open car bodies for Ford USA. Both were located in Pontiac, Michigan. Is it possible that one of those companies purchased the front seat heel panel that already had the other company’s letter embossed on it and added their own letter and built their own body? Or perhaps one of the companies “sub contracted” with the other one to meet a deadline etc. and on those bodies built by the other Monroe for Beaudett or the other way around – they added the second letter? Or perhaps there was a different explanation(s) depending also on when the double stamp was done? I.e. the 1915 heel panels have the “M” stamped inward rather than outward like the “B” is on all the panels I have seen so far.

Below are the factory paper tags that came with a 1914 and were date stamped Apr 21, 1914. (Used by permission from the May-Jun 1971 “Vintage Ford” pages 5-11 article. Also that was reprinted within the last several years in the “Vintage Ford” with an update on the car.) Note that the list varies a little from one tag to the next. I.e. all the same body makers are listed on both tags except Hayes is only listed on one of the tags.





Pontiac / Pontiac
Fisher / Fisher
Wilson / Wilson
Herbert / Herbert
Monroe / Monroe
--- / Hayes
Ford / Ford

But none of those are a company with two names.

So much more still to rediscover. So much more information is being shared through the internet, our forums, e-mail, etc. Thanks to everyone for their help and support to our hobby.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 10:29 pm:

Hap,

Sounds like the M was the added one. On the MB's, the B is always in relief in the center whereas the M depended whether the panel was inserted face up or down to add the M next to the B. I like your idea of a sub from Beaudette to Monroe. Logical. Also, could have been that Beaudette furnished the sheet metal to Monroe to get them started in the 1914 style open cars. My idea (and I am often wrong) is that Beaudette began the early '14s built in July, August and September of 1913. Just a thought.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Thursday, June 27, 2013 - 05:44 pm:

Hap/ anyone

Judging from the information of my T's former owners gong back to 1914 in Washington State, if the number #131351... 3 M 14 stamped in the wood under the seat was a Seattle Washington branch I D number when it was assembled there. Did the branch plants have separate numbering for cars assembled at the plants? I know the engine number 395707 would have come from Detroit.
Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, June 27, 2013 - 10:30 pm:

Mark,

Yes, the branch plants did have branch assembly numbers. However, those were introduced starting around 1926 model year production. It was not until the 1928 model year, when the Model A Ford production began that most of the assembly plants started stamping their own numbers onto the cars. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/111490.html for additional details on the Branch Assembly numbers. Based what I currently understand about the body numbers (see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html ) I do not believe the numbers are the assembly plant numbers but rather the body maker number. There may also be an indication of which company did the finishing on the body -- that has been seen on some of the bodies.

There is always more to discover -- thank you all for helping us look.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Thursday, June 27, 2013 - 11:00 pm:

Thanks for the info. I will check with our Kern County Model T Club members and gather their T Numbers from their cars.
Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, June 28, 2013 - 07:23 am:

I agree with Hap. The number stamped into the wood was done at the body manufacturer's factory prior to the body being shipped to Highland Park.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, June 28, 2013 - 07:41 am:

Mark,

Thank you for working to gather some additional body number and related car information. There is not a rush as this is clearly one of those longer rather than shorter term projects. As you contact folks, most of the cars will fall into the category of we do not know the full history of the car and we do not really know if the body or engine were ever changed in the past. Some of the cars will fall in the category of we don't know for sure, but it appears the engine and body originally came together. Others will fall into the category that while we do not know the history the engine and body are of the same date range (i.e. 1914 engine with 1914 body etc.). Others will fall into the category of we highly suspect the engine or body may have been changed such as a 1921 engine with a 1917 style chassis and a body that could have been 1917 to 1921. Some we know the engine or body was switched – the current owner or previous owner tells us that. And a few will have a known history or documentation that let us know the body and engine have never been swapped. For example the Rip Van Winkle Ford is well documented as having the original engine and body. In the case of Wayne Martin's 1914 touring it was highly modified by the original owner with numerous accessories. But he has the history of the car from the original owner to the present. And in his case the car also came with the original shipping tags – the ones shown earlier in this posting. Even without the oral history for the previous owners, the body tags clearly state what engine number and what body number the car originally had. And yes they still match the engine and body that is on the car today. The tags would document the information even if the car no longer survived. But in most cases the tags did not survive nearly as long as the car. Wayne very kindly sent me a photo of his body number and I give that information more weight than the body, chassis, and engine that have been taken apart and are found in a pile in the corner of a barn. There is a great article about Wayne’s car that previously had been his Dad’s car in the July-August 2012 Vintage Ford magazine as well as the Nov-Dec 1969 and May-Jun 1971 issues.

Along with the numbers and body maker letter when available, please let me know which of those categories the information likely falls into. Unknown if the Engine or Body was changed. Not definitely known but unlikely that either was changed. Most likely the body and/or engine was changed. Or for sure we know one was changed. [Note if the engine block was changed but the original engine number was stamped onto the replacement block - that still gives us the documentation we need to help date the time frame of the car. The engine serial number normally cannot prove a car was built on a certain date – but it often provides an earliest date it could have been built and along with other documentation it can sometimes refine that date or even pin point the date it was built for the cars #1,119 to approximately 70,702 ref pages 478 to 499 of Bruce McCalley’s (R.I.P.) “Model T Ford” – available from the vendors and our club.] If the owner is open to it, please provide me with their contact information in case I have additional questions or if we see a pattern, so we can notify them that we believe their body or whatever fits this time frame etc.

This project will not solve world hunger or world peace. But hopefully in the future it will help restorers be able to look at the body tin and be able to figure out which body maker likely produced the body they are looking at. And more importantly which body maker's metal panels interchange well and which ones require major rework to have them fit the other company's body.

Again thank you and others for your help and support on this and to our hobby.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Friday, June 28, 2013 - 01:07 pm:

Being a Model T Purist Want a Be, I forget that most T's have been modified in some way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Thursday, August 01, 2013 - 09:15 pm:

One more Ford Engine number. This is the number on my extra Ford Engine. It's #4058. I'm not sure what year it was made?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, August 02, 2013 - 07:59 am:

Mark,

I’m 99.9% sure that is a Model N, R, S, or SR engine. If it is “NOT” then the information below does not apply. If it is, then the information below should apply.

Because the engine serial number is higher than 3800 we know it is a Model N Runabout engine block as the other 1906-1908 four cylinder serial numbers stopped earlier than that. The Model R Runabout (R) went to around 2532; the Model S Runabout (S) went to around 2335; and the Model S Roadster (SR) went up to around 3719 [of note that SR and two others along with a S Landaulet were manufactured Jul 20, 1909 which was well into the Model T Production [ref page 482 Bruce McCalley’s “Model T Ford” and approximately 5 months after the last SR serial number recorded in Trent’s Early Ford Database which was shipped [not manufactured but shipped] on Feb 1, 1909 [ref: Trent’s Early Ford Database which is included in Bruce McCalley’s “Comprehensive Model T Encyclopedia as well as with “Pate’s Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia.”

I’m not really sure what the numbers are – you can probably see them clearer but Model N Engine 4058 was shipped Mar 26, 1907 to Northwestern Auto Co,. Minneapolis MN. In case it is 4088 – we have a record of 4086 shipped Mar 27, 1907 to Wm. Warnock in Sioux City, IA. Your engine crank case would have been shipped in a Model N around the same time.

Note I used the term “engine crankcase” and not engine. Why? Because the crankcase was one of the parts that was sometimes replaced on the Model N, R, S, and SR cars. In the case of the Model T, the serial number was stamped on the block that included the cylinders and the upper part of the crankcase. In the case of the N, R, S, and SR the cylinders were bolted to the crankcase. So if an engine with the “hinged” connecting rod [has one bolt on one side and a hinge on the other side of the cap] was run low on oil and it “threw a rod” – the aluminum crankcase was often damaged. If it was not repairable it would be swapped out. But if all the parts were still with the original crankcase then Mar 1907 would be a good estimate for the date the assembly was shipped.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Friday, August 02, 2013 - 02:48 pm:

Thanks Hap

It is a Model N R S Engine. That's great that you have a date for the crank case of March 26, 1907. Thanks Mark


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