Well it's been two years since I’ve been working on my Model T coupe. I have it also most ready to ride. But the MA. DOT keeps changing what information they like to see. Every time I go to the RMV/DOT... it's a different story from them...I have a notarized bill of sale, the town police did a visual VIN Check. I even notarized a form so I can get antique plates... with all my paper work in place I went off to the MA. RMV/DOT in Watertown MA. I was there at 9:00 but didn't get up to the window till 12:45 that’s how efficient they are. When I did get to the window I pass my paper work and then told... "How do I know that this person owned the car before you or even if they the right to sell you the car"... my jaws dropped as they held all my paper work... and I told them look every time I come to the Registry it's a different story. I was sent to the office manager whom just Wisk away... the 5th time I asked my insurance company whom has a runner leave it and pick it up the next day... just to get it back with statements like where has the car been and why hasn't the previous owner paid taxes in this state..? It’s not like the MA. RMV/DOT Is mismanaged... it's more like there's No management or structure... now 2 1/2 months spring is here and I want to drive.. Where can I get someone who can title it in there state... and how much would this service cost..?
I don't know if it will help you, but when I had difficulty in Calif getting title on a car, I contacted an aid of my local state congressman. I supplied hem with copies of my paperwork, the DMW rules regarding the proper registration procedure ( all the clerks from local to the state office said "we don't do it that way") After intervention from my congressman the "did it that way"
Well President Obama did fly over my house a few years ago and saluted me as they slowly flew the presidential helicopter to the town next to me.. but the registry won’t buy that.. Is there a key member within the model T organization whom is working on helping with this process in all states for us. Like congress.. But in the meantime I’m still looking for the magic someone or service company whom can help with this..
Rule #187 - Never buy a car without a title. If it's so easy to get, the seller would have a title.
Here is a thread on another forum discussing the problems with registering a titleless car in MA:
"The problem is when you have owned a vehicle for more than 20 years here in MA (or other states), that didn't require a title back then, or maybe you never had it registered, it was sitting on your property and you finally decided to do something with it, or sell it to someone who wants, They want you to provide proof of ownership, they want you to have a cop go look at the wehicle before its moved from the spot on the property where its been sitting, they wanted not only a bill of sale but a notorized letter from the seller/owner a history of how and why you owned the vehicle and never paid sales tax on it, and then they want the owner to go to court and have a judge rule that you own the vehicle and then, you can sell it legally. Oh and after that, when you get all that squared away, when you go to title it yourself, no matter the condition of the vehicle, or how much you paid for it, you pay the sales tax on a blanket valuation of the vehicle which they determine, not you."
Your probably going to need to get a lawyer involved...
Washing the car it of state can and will get it taken away if you get caught. I have the same problem with my austing Healey 100/4.
The thing I love about model t's is the vin numbers are always on the engine, just file it off the frame and engine and restamp it to a new title of he same year and make. Buy a junker with a title or a frame that some hot fodder messed up and stamp your car with the new numbers. You are less likely to get caught doing it this way then washing out of state.
Check with your local hot roders at the car shows in your area "ask everyone there" if they know any local lawyers that have helped them get theirs done this if you want to go that way.
Your address states you live in Delaware. Why waste time in MA? If you have moved recently, get the title in Delaware and just transfer it to MA.
8 years ago I moved from one county to another, but I hung on to my old license with the old address. I was able to play golf at county rates in both counties for 8 years, until the license expired.
That is a sad story for you to tell, just a bunch of DUMBBELLS AND KNOW NOTHINGS, in your state.
When I put my 1917 Depot Hack together and had it finished ready to title it I had to trailer it to the local CHP(Hiway Patrol) and he verified the engine number and and signed the paper and I went tot the Department of Motor Vehicles and they made up the paper work and it was a done deal. So keep up the Faith and it will all come to pass and it will work out for the best.
Ramon - Dave is asking the correct question because all states are different.
for example - if you are in Mass I would suggest selling the vehicle to someone in NH and have him register it because they don't require a title on older vehicles. They do require a VIN # verification that requires the vehicle to actually be in NH. After it is registered in NH
you purchase it from them.
Then you go to the Mass registry and show them the registration from NH with a bill of sale. They know about the NH laws and usually don't give you a problem -especially near the border.
Sometimes just going to a "friendly" registry office will work. Watertown is a city registry office that deals with shady people and I would expect that are not apt to give anyone slack. I'll bet that you were a bit aggravated after waiting almost 4 hours and the person behind the counter along with the manager didn't want to deal with you or the problem.
Find a Small out of the way DMV and go there.
I recently had to go through this exercise.
What I learned.
First, the title should be the very first thing you take care of when you get the car. You don’t want to restore something and put value into a vehicle you do not legally own. Take photographs. Take photographs with you standing next to the car so the DMV doesn’t think you pulled a photo off eBay. When you go to the DMV, remember you are following the footsteps of street rodders who have titled their Cobra replicas as ‘65 Galaxies and their streetrods as ’23 Fords. You need to prove you’re legitimate and not pulling a fast one. Do not use of any of the title mills or antique paper dealers others may recommend. The DMV are not stupid and you run the risk of criminal charges.
Go on your state’s DMV website and look up everything you can regarding motor vehicle titles. Print out those pages and yellow highlight the passages pertinent to your issue. Your DMV isn’t going to want to look up this information for you and many of them don’t know the procedures by heart.
Have the car professionally appraised or get the latest copy of Old Cars Weekly Car Value Guide. When I took the photo of my car, I was holding this publication up so they could ascertain the age of the photo. The reason you want to do it this way is so they know the car is currently in that condition. Another reason you want the title sorted out immediately is because many states have a threshold where you need a surety bond to get a title for your car. Rest assured that DMV employees watch American Pickers and they know your car is worth at least $40,000 because it is ninety some years old.
Choose your DMV and choose wisely. I went to a big city DMV Super Center and was immediately branded a potential criminal. I left with my paperwork and photos and took a vacation day. I then went to the DMV office near my folks place; a more rural location. I then proceeded to wait my turn and took the time to explain what I had purchased and what I needed. The lady was polite in return and suggested that I go have lunch while she ran my identification numbers to make sure they weren’t red lighted on a national database or assigned to some streetrod. When I came back a half hour later she gave me the all clear and took my original receipt and photos and shortly afterwards I received my title.
If all of this fails, then you have to go a judge and present legal evidence as to why you believe you own this vehicle. They will then issue an order for you to obtain a title through the DMV.
In the future, I will never purchase a car without a valid title issued in the sellers name.
buy a title, transfer it like any other title, if your really worried about numbers stamp the block, but I doubt u will ever get your numbers checked. if u need one let me know
Ramon: this question often comes up even though we rebuild engines we also get this question asked since it's still car related.
Believe it or not we had an insurance company owner call us and ask about getting title for his one of 1932 Essex car that we rebuilt engine for.
I found I believe 3 places that would give you a clean title for a price.
Dealing with MA DMV. is like getting tooth pulled without anesthetic.
I believe he paid about 300 dollars at the time to receive an out of state title. it took about 3-4 weeks. Then he went to registry and paid 75 for in state title.
He was a bit apprehensive about the whole thing dealing with someone out of state and all but it worked.
The registry won't help you nor a lawyer as you have to skirt the system not deal with it.
In Mass. you have to show proof that the car is not stolen and was purchased legally. That means there has to be a paper trail back to some "official" document. If you had an old registration, then can show a series of Bill of Sale's transferring ownership to you, that might work. But as you found out, they require something that shows poof of ownership somewhere along the line.
Also, just going to an out of the way DMV isn't going to work. They may accept everything at that branch and tell you everything looks OK, but then they send the paperwork to the main office which issues the title. The main office will then reject it.
I have one car which I didn't have a title for, but it came from CT. CT didn't issue titles for cars that old so there wouldn't have been one. I had to get a notarized letter stating the history of the car, have the VIN number checked, have the Bill of Sale, and mail it all into someone at the main office. That worked but only because the car came from CT and CT didn't issue titles.
Good Luck - let us know if you figure out how to do it.
It's very simple. You just have to live in the right place. Some states have long legislative sessions allowing for all kinds of mischief, and others have short sessions which limit the damage.
Dealing with DMV is a bear, call for an inspection appointment and its three months before you can get in. Then you go in there(load the T on the trailer,20 mile round trip) and spend two hours or more and no one comes in and there still making three months appointments on the phone. 5 people sitting around drinking coffee and eating donuts. Job security I guess.
and you MIGHT get things taken care of, if you'r lucky.
I did get lucky one part time retired trooper after the main crew left with no results, came out and asked what that was all about, I told him and he made some calls to DMV headquarters and talked to some one, gave me some paper work and said go to the licencing place and gave me his card with the name of the person he talked to and said if they give you any trouble have them to call her. $125.00 later I had it with 1921 orig. plates. Some people work with you and others work for them self even when your paying there salary.
Well, I’m back from the 6th run... to a different RMV/DOT... The line wasn’t a 4 hrs. plus wait but still. They give you a ticket when you get there; it stated the estimated wait time is 30min... I guess you just need to add an hour plus to that...
So did a little research at the MA. State web site. It states that you don’t need to have a bill of Sale Notarized... although I was told and did as I was told.., I got it notarized... I also got a letter from the previous owner as of to the accounts of the car, how log she’s had it 40yrs... Where it’s been when she sold it to me and for how much, the VIN Number etc... I said to myself good “I should be all set” so off to the registry I went…
I got up to the window and that person told me; I’m going to give you to “xx” because she knows how to deal with this... I said to myself here we go again... being very polite and nice... I moved over to the next window and waited till she finished the transaction she was doing... I pass over the paper work... she then call the manager/supervisor which looked at the paper work... “Now my heart is pounding from all the stress” as I stand quietly... the manager say’s I may Have Accepted this... ”Not I would have but I may have”, if the accounts of the car where abouts and the Bill of sale where all in one piece of paper rather than two...
She must have notice my blood pressure rising because she than said... Here a note so when you come back we can put you in front of the line... I trying to do everything right and by the book... by now I have spent more in gas and time back and forth than I paid for the car and my stress levels aren’t helping my blood pressure...
and they still haven’t Tax me “Though they told me the tax rate is based on the highest valve on that car that they can find... not what I actually paid for it.. And that if I don’t register it right away there a late registration fee...
Thanks to all whom given me advise to hold on. But I do need to step away from this for a while...
One piece of advise I'd offer is to stay clear of the outfits that advertise that they can get you title (in Alabama or Nevada, etc). At one time of them were legit, but most are just crooks now that will take your money and not produce a useable title.
It took me 8 months and 3 rejections to get a title for my motorbike this past year (in Illinois).
I loged in at my friend house. Who’s also a member that’s why you see his name above sorry about that.. but that’s me…
Seems to me if you have a notarized bill of sale that would be a good start.
I didn't have anything but my word and a picture of my 1919 Runabout which I built.
The frame I inherited from my Father and I built the Runabout on it.
Since I inherited it from my father that was enough to start the process in getting a title.
The guy I worked with was very helpful in getting me started in the right direction.
It worked in my case since it was inherited.
It took about 3-4 months but the clear Texas title finally came in the mail.
For me it took finding the right guy to talk to who knew what he was talking about.
I just remembered one other item. Weight! Print out the page from the MTFCA.com online encyclopedia with the published weight for your year and model. The DMV books don't go back that far and you will need this for the title.
Ramon, contact the Delaware Motor Vehicle Administration and ask them that question. They will know the correct answer. Each state has different rules.
If you buy a car in New york State older than 1973, they will issue you a temporary title from the Bill of Sale information, as NY did not start titling vehicles until 1973. They will issue you a regular title in a month or so, if they find no adverse information about your car.
I always check the title first to ensure the person I'm talking too owns the vehicle and has a right to sell it lien free.
There is always the possibility that you bought the car from someone that didn't own it or have a right to sell it.
LOL Why is this so hard to understand? Mass - NH is easy!
I know of people that have done this a few times for Mass people with title problems on old vehicles
1. Move the vehicle to NH and register it in NH - a simple bill of sale and motor number inspection is all that is needed to register an older vehicle. - knowing the local officials helps
2. Find a small office in Mass near the border or small office near where you live and be pleasant!
3. The bill of sale and registration from NH will be enough. - In extreme cases they may need the vin number verified.
4. If the office gives you a hard time tell them that you'll get the info they need and go to a different place.
This does not work in all states so don't be confused by the problems other people have -
Just saying ---
I think the title problem is a problem of the right man at the right place.
It took me 6 months in 2008 to get the paper work done for my 1926 touring I found in a barn here in Belgium. As ramon I was send from one office to an other, to an other, to an other, to ... Till one day some one hear my story in an office. Took the paper work (96 pages), made copies and 4 days later everything was done and at home.
Well, for once, things in Ohio do go well! 4 of my 5 cars, a Model A, and the last 3 Model T's, have all been bought, and titled off a bill of sale. I had to 1: get the car inspected by my local Highway Patrol/DMV authorized inspector, a great guy from a local car dealership. Twice, he drove 12 miles out to my house to do the inspection, the other 2 times, I trailered them to him. 2. Took the bill of sale to our county clerk office to get the title, and of course pay a ton of money for taxes. 3. Take newly acquired said title to the DMV office to buy the tags, and donate some more money. Took about 2 hours total. 4.Pay the insurance bill (actually that came very first!).
So, Ramon, take a vacation out to Ohio and git 'er done here, then transfer your title out there. Maye that'll work.
Tim, I live in Ohio and will need to go thru the same process when I get my 26 touring together.
How did the county clerk determine how much tax to pay? Also, did the inspector charge anything?
Trying to figure how much money I'll need to get my title. Thanks.
People say California is a tough State to get a car registered through the DMV. Not so, just tell the truth. The DMV doesn't want to get sued for falsifying titles of stolen cars. So when we purchased a car with no title we were told by DMV to get a DMV bond from a bonding agency. It cost us $50 and all we did was to explain to the bonding agency what we had. We then went to the Auto Club with our hand written explanations and the bond and registered the car. Simple and legal.
ACSC, the Automobile club of Southern California, is affiliated with AAA. They once produced the best road maps in the country, but sometime in the seventies or eighties they lowered their cartographic standards to conform with the national AAA map format. They take care of several automotive services, like route planning, registration, and touring info.
AhhhhHaaaa,........I see,.....thanks Steve!
Tim Wrenn what year is on your title? Is it correct for the car?
Greg: Yep. '12, '15, '25, all on a bill of sale. Numbers correspond to the model year.
You are correct! I think ours meets every other year and we don't pay them much. The only problem is they have longer to think about the mischief.