I have some Firestone rims that I need the lugs for. These rims are the ones that have the stud where the tube stem comes out of the rim. This locks it to the wheel. Any one have a picture of what the 4 lugs should look like? Or better does any one have the lugs, need 16 of them. Thanks, Dan
Here's a lug for a 1919 - 22 Firestone demountable wheel
Here's the lug installed
Here's the rim showing the valve stem coming through the locating bung:
Does that lug have a cone shape nut or is it a flat nut? Are there any numbers on that lug? Also, did they make a lug with the nut made into it? Thanks, Dan
here is a picture of the Firestone's parts. I have Firestone's and my rims took the 11630 wedge and my car is a 1917. If you ever need a spare rim to have a spare tire already mounted with the car, good luck. It took me some time to find one and when it got here it had a split in it and so I had to weld it up in a few spots. The Firestone's were an aftermarket item but was part of the long relationship with the Ford and Firestone families.
The nut is acorn shaped to fit the countersunk hole. Any of the repro part sellers have the nuts.
There are no numbers on the lugs.
Firestone wheels never had the nut captive to the lug.
These Firestone wheels were regular production, one of several types of demountable rims used by Ford. They are quite common in the Midwest.
Eric's picture does not show any of the correct lugs. I believe he is perhaps talking about the wood fellow demountable Firestone wheels which were available as early as 1910. This discussion is not about that type of wheel.
I've got two demountable Firestone wheels out in the shop and one rim. I've also got some lugs. I'll take a look tomorrow if I think of it. Today has been another tough one and I've got to unwind first. The last month or two has been physically, mentally and emotionally stressed and it's been a little hard to keep up with life in general. Once I get my life back under control I should be back displaying my sarcastic, disgusting self. Until then I'll work this out and get back to you as I can. God bless you guys.
Dan, I have sandblasted and re- electro zinc plated lugs available, but all ours have no countersink. They take the nut with the squared flange on the back. Let me know if they are of use to you.
Allan from down under.
The squared flange on the back nuts are for the Kelsey lose lug wheels which were standard on many of the Canadian Model Ts and some of the USA wheels.
If someone had both the Kelsey lose lug and the Firestone lose lug it would be great if they could compare the two of them side by side. It would be nice to see how they are a like and how they are different. And could the reproduction Kelsey lose lug be safely modified to serve as the Firestone lug? It would be easy to add tapered recess to the bolt hole – but I do not know if the rest of the Kelsey lug is close enough to the Firestone lug in size and shape to know if it would work safely or not. Just a thought.
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Hap, I as not aware of repro Kelsey loose lugs like that. Where are they available? It would help me put a realistic price on my originals.
From the photo I would make the following observations.
The Kelsey lug is squarer in profile whereas the Firestone has more rounded edges on the face.
That Firestone lug looks to be neatly cut from stock whereas the Kelsey lugs appear to be sheared off and have some rough edges because of this.
In my collection there are unbranded ones, some with patent dates either side of the bolt hole, others with different numbers. All are sheared off.
I cannot tell if they are dimensionally the same, which may make them interchangeable.
Just for interest.
Allan from down under.
The reproduction Kelsey removable lug is part number 2846B and is listed in the Lang's catalog at: http://www.modeltford.com/pl.aspx?t=s&v=2846B&page=1 for $16.75
The flat matching nut is part number 2848B (they are not plated) for $2.25 see: http://www.modeltford.com/pl.aspx?t=s&v=2848B&page=1
I would probably be looking for used ones rather than new ones based on those prices but I'm on a limited old car budget at the moment. And I do not have a need for either of those as my wheels are the Hayes style.
Other vendors may also carry them. I really appreciate it when the vendors use the original Ford Part numbers as much as practical.
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Oops my bad for not double checking my typing. I apologize for misspelling your name.
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Dan,if you figure out what you need ,and can post a picture,I have a bunch of lugs and would be happy to look for you.
This is one of the lugs that came off my Firestone wheels. I have 2 wheels 1 rim and a set of lugs bolts and nuts out in the shop.
The lugs have the words "Motor Wheel" embossed on them.
Oops, Dan I just read your initial post. I'm kind of surprised to see you have 4 lug wheels. It turns out the set I've got are 5 lug. They're definitely Firestone wheels. I wish I had another rim to replace the one I'm missing.
The five lug Firestone wheels are wood felloe and utterly unrelated to what Dan is asking for.
Hap the Firestone wheels on my 13 pictured above had some of the Kelsey lugs mixed in when I bought the car from Paul Sorrel. In a nutshell they are too small and don't clamp the rim securely.
Dan, here is a picture of another style of Firestone lug. I realize its not what your looking for, but thought you might be interested. It has the nut captive to the lug.
I find it interesting some people can be "UTTERLY" pretentious and blatantly wrong. I happen to apparently own a rare pair of Firestone five lug 21" wheels with steel fellows that bolt right on to my 1926 Model T Ford Sedan. I wonder what the experts will have to say about that. I even went out and double checked and though it's hard to believe I can be so lucky the words "Firestone 21" is stamped on both wheels and the one and only rim I own. That just seems "UTTERLY" fascinating to me.
Thank you so much for letting us know that the Kelsey clamps are a little short and do not properly secure the Firestone removable 4 lug factory Ford wheel. If they were too long -- a little grinding could possibly make them work. If someone had trouble locating the proper clamp, do you think the Kelsey could be built up to work on the Firestone removable 4 lug wheel or would it be one of those not really worth the try issues?
Firestone produced numerous aftermarket and factory wheels for all sorts of cars including the Model T Ford. The 5 lug steel fellows that you have may have even have been designed by Firestone as an aftermarket wheel for the Model T Ford. They could be a great accessory for a T. But I do not believe they were ever used in normal Model T Production. For a complete listing of wheels, rims, etc. used during normal production please see: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels
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I can't see any way that would work safely.
If you can't find enough correct used lugs any machinist could easily make a piece of L - stock the correct shape from 4130 steel billet, then cut it in pieces and drill , then countersink the holes. I imagine that is how Firestone did it originally.
Thanks Hap, I guess I hadn't seen in the posts where they had mentioned regular production. I know these wheels are in excellent shape and I thought perhaps Dan might be able to use the lugs off them. Oh well better luck next time. I have several items that are sitting in my shop that I don't plan on putting onto either of my cars. some of it is good stuff and some of it is garbage. Something like the wheels and all the parts that go with them could possibly work for someone else. And with me the price is always right because I'll give a lot away and on the stuff I sell I usually charge what I've got into the parts. I paid $10.00 a piece for the wheels and though I'm missing one rim everything is there and should work pretty darn nice for someone who needs wheels. Actually while typing this I remembered a fellow in my old stomping grounds that was asking me about a couple wheels for a '26 he was trying to get on the road. I'll give him a call. Once again Thanks Hap.
Thanks for clarifying that it would be easier to start with "L" stock than to try and modify the Kelsey lug.
I do not need your Firestone wheels, but do think they would look good on a model T. However, Motor Wheel was another and different manufacturer of wheels, not commonly seen. Do all your wheel lugs say "Motor Wheel"? How many do you have?
My Paige has Motor Wheel wheels and I may need a few more lugs. (Supposedly I have them all, but have not seen them in a dozen years.) I currently have a few (very few) Firestone lugs on the car. What I have is almost an exact match for the Paige/Motor Wheel lugs I have.
Maybe a trade can be worked out?
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
I am not saying start with L stock. I am saying start with 4130 steel billet. From that a machinist can easily cut an L shape that includes the hook end that is necessary to anchor the rim securely to the steel felloe.
Thanks for all the replies guys, I looked in an old Auto Supply book I have and now I am more confused. They show a 2 Firestone 30 X 3.5 rims, a G and a H. For lugs they show some like David posted, none like Royce posted.
David: Is there a # on the back of your lug like a W44?
Royce: Are there any # on the back of your lugs?
My rims are NOS and only say Firestone 30X3.5, no rim # G or H that I kind find. The book also shows that Motor wheel lugs will fit some Firestone rims. I will try and copy the book and post. Thanks, Dan
There are no numbers of any kind anywhere on the lugs. On the inside of the wheel rim, visible only with the tire removed is the word FIRESTONE.
I don't have any idea what a Motor wheel lug looks like. Do you?
Dan, I have kept quiet up to this point because I was looking for a pail I have with a bunch of lugs in it I got with some parts I got. I've been through my trailer, garage and called My Dad to look in his container where I have a few things stashed. I can't find it. But I will double check the container tomorrow myself. In the meantime I found four that were on a wheel and pitted rim. The lug nuts are bad but the lugs look fine.
I have one,and you may have it if you like.
Scott, those are just like the ones which are most common in Australia. There does not seem to be any markings on yours. Some of ours are just as plain and then others have different sets of markings. All take the nut with the square flange on the back.
Allan from down under
Dan, The only number on the lugs I have is "22", which is cast/forged into the back of the lug.
For any one wondering what "motor wheel" lugs look like feel free to go to the photos I posted a few days ago. As I stated in the post, those are motorwheel lugs. They came off a firestone, 5 lug wheel. The wheel has a steel fellow. I don't know what I could possibly do to "utterly" make this any clearer.
Dan I would love to send the Motor Wheel lugs to yo but Sheldon spoke up first.
Sheldon, if you care to IM me your home address, I'll pack the lugs I've got and send them to you. If you find your not going to need them, I'm sure Dan could put them to use. God bless, Mike
Bottom Line Up Front: I believe there is an excellent chance that both Firestone and Cleveland produced both the 2825C and 2825D style rim and wheels for Ford Motor Company (and possibly Ford and Motor Wheel may have produced them also – that needs more research). From a sample size of 1 (that would be a really small sample size) it appears that you can successfully mount the 2825C or 2825D rim on the same felloe. BUT the removable LUGs are DIFFERENT. Be sure to use the same type of lug as the rim you have.
Note also that the photo of the lugs posted by Royce have a recessed/chamfered area and use the lug nut part #2848 that has the tapered shoulder. While the photo of the lugs posted by Scott do NOT appear to have that recessed/chamfered area in the lug. The Aug 5, 1928 “Price List of Parts” USA version has the tapered shoulder lug nut designated as fitting both the fixed lug 2845B (both Ford and Hayes fixed lug rim) and the removable lug for the #2845D rim that Royce posted the picture of. While the flat back lug nut part #2848B is listed in that same price list of parts for use ONLY with the Kelsey rims (#2845) and Kelsey lugs (2846B).
Some additional information:
Please ensure that you use the correct clamps for the style of rim and wheel that you have. The clamps that Royce posted go with the rim he also posted. According to the price list of parts that style was used in some production during 1923. That is the 2845D Ford rim. Note I believe that Firestone and Cleveland probably both produced that rim for Ford – but I do not have the time to look that documentation up this morning.
Note that the 2845C Ford rim also had removable lugs. But for that rim the 2846C lug had a captured lug nut in the lug. Below is a photo from Steve Shelton showing his 2845C rim with the proper 2846C lug. He uses the same felloe for both his 2845C and 2845D rims – but carries an extra set of lugs with the captured nuts in case he needs to use his spare which is fitted to the 2845C rim.
Any documentation that Ford Canada used and/or exported cars with other than the Kelsey style or Hayes style rims?
Does anyone have a 2845C or 2845D rim with a Cleveland or Motor Wheel marking?
For the 2845D rim – is there any reason the felloe would need the cut outs? Those are needed for the 2845C rim and related 2846C lug nut. I know that Ford liked to make things backwards compatible and perhaps that is why the later 1923 wheels had the cut out?
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Hap, My observations of our Canadian sourced cars leads me to believe that all the loose lug wheels we have had the reliefs punched into the felloes to accept the longer foot on the loose lug. Our lugs are as posted by Scott Gilham.
In 1925, with the change to fixed lug rims, the felloe then was plain.
The 2845D rim is very similar to one of the Kelsey variants which I have seen, and prefer if I can find them. If that rim is made to fit a felloe without the notches, like our 1925 felloes, there would be an interchangeability problem with notched felloes, as these are slightly smaller in diameter. The land on the rim may not engage on the felloe properly.
I believe the loose lugs as posted by Scott need the notch in the felloe. The notch is a fixed point. When pressure is applied by the wheel nut, the force is transferred to the rim end of the lug, providing tension at the rim. Without the notch, the lug can sit tight against the felloe and then the point of contact on the rim is fixed. There is no constant tension on the rim, and if there is any wear in the felloe or rim land, the rim may be loose on the wheel.
May the confusion cease to reign.
Allan from down under.