Please share the toe in for a '27 T. Thanks
Hi there, please do not take me as being rude here but i have a question for you, have you read any of the model t restoration books put out by the MTFCA or own a service manual which has all these answers.
I see so many people asking these sort of questions when a $10 book gives you every detail, the toe in is 3/16" to 1/4" and the camber is 3". this is answer No. 150 in the ford service book as it was the first book I purchased when I got my car Ray
I do take it as rude. Sorry to bother you but thanks for your answer. I have the books and ability to rebuild any part of a T. I was just having a bite to eat while watching it rain and reading the forum. Drove the '27 for the first time today after rebuilding it frame up and was thinking of rechecking the toe. Books are in the shop and I was just thinking about the spec. Will not bother the forum again with such trivial things - or likely bother with the forum.
With all the exspurts here, a simple question nets the usual response, when the owner was trying to be sociable. No more, No less. At least it didn't turn into a lecture on king pin reaming and thrust washers, as if half of the venue even owns a set (SET) of micrometers.
I pm'd Ken and apologized. ws
1/4" is the spec for toe in called out in any of the Model T books.
Sounds to me like Ken had a pretty good reason for asking the question here.
"There are no stupid questions".
Something that most of the books do not say, is that the way the tie rod is set up and threaded with ends that only attach one way, it makes almost a 1/4 inch change for one turn of the tie rod end. To steer properly, there must be NO toe-out while in forward motion. Because the camber on a model T is not that good, road pressure (rolling resistance) pushes both wheels back slightly more than the "at rest" adjustment. Somewhere between barely toed-in and about 1/4 inch toe-in is as close as you can get.
One of the squirrelly steering issues of some model Ts could be in part because the adjustment for that particular tie rod in that front axle is on the ragged edge of not close enough to best toe-in adjustment. I did change a tie rod on one T because I couldn't get the adjustment I wanted. I should consider trying that with my coupe. It is not bad, but a little more "darty" than I like.
Enjoy the hobby! And drive carefully, W2
I joined this forum about 11 or 12 years ago, and my very first question was the same as this....correct toe in?
I remember I received several correct (and civil) answers from folk all interested in helping out a newby.
Some of those people became friends in both reality and cyberspace. But sadly, over the years many of them have left the forum and I suspect for this reason.
I certainly did, twice. However, my car wouldn't be half as good as it is if it wasn't for the information I gained from the knowledgeable folk on this forum, so I rejoined, twice.
My suggestion to you is, stay and soak up the good contributions I know this forum can deliver.
I think if a "Genie" gave me 3 wishes, one I would choose is complete retraction of all my "wise-ass comments" made over the years without thinking before speaking(or writing). As age has increased, my comments have decreased......I hope.
All it takes is one a- hole to ruin everyones fun
Almost all questions regarding an original Model T can be answered by researching the manual.
The manual is not always available.
At least Ken McGirr's question was a question about the subject that this forum is about. His question beats the heck out of the numerous OT questions asked about subjects that are so far off subject that the prase "Model T" is never even mentioned in the thread.
Read this thread- tell me how this discussion has anything to do with a Model T Ford?
Ken- bring your questions on- we have all been in your position- except for a few.
Hi John, tit for tat, http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/288201.html or am I now the new Royce, come on, I made an observation and answered his question that he asked and gave a reference point but when I was starting out in this hobby and I asked a question like that I was told "get the Book and read it" as It has been pointed out to me by some prominent Model T restorers over the years that members never check the past posts which could answer their question first up, when I want some thing I search the net, ring a friend and read my books till all base's are covered then I ask for help, as to the Thunderbird it was a very productive post as we have the history of the car going back 35 years now so I am happy with the results.... Ray
There are at least three correct answers to the original post:
"Read the Manual."
"Toe-in (glad you spelled it correctly) is only the final measurement on a frontend alignment. What has brought you to you ask?"
For Pete's sake - just answer the guys question!
Lectures aren't necessary.
What if he had been 100 miles from home?
Shouldn't the primary purpose of the forum be to help ?
Im with you Bud, I did answer his question, out here in Australia you learn to fix your car very quick as many times you are 100's of miles from home or there is no one to help you and you only have the book so all owners should read it first..I Like what Ricks said "RTFB" cartoon
Hey Ricks, how far are you from Mammoth Lakes as I just added to a post you put up.. Ray
"and the camber is 3"."
That is on the earlier cars.
Camber on a '27 (improved car) is aprox 1&15/16" as per the Service Bulletin Essentials book, page 377.
Since this all came up I've been thinking (I know that's where the trouble begins)1/4" is what the book calls for. As wayne says, because of the nature of the T tie rod flipping the end changes toe near 1/4" a turn. The only way to change your outcome would be to find tie rod ends with the threads started at different points of the 360 degrees available...right?? How many tie rod ends would you have to go through to find a 1/8" advantage.
And with the Montana 500 just finished, I wonder where those guys set their toe? All race cars have "Race" set-ups Right?
The biggest problem I've found when setting toe-in is the tires adhering to the ground giving false readings. Front end shops would use rotating plates to allow the wheels to move freely but that's not an option for the shade tree guy. Small sheet metal plates with a bit of lube on them (between the tire & plate) lets them move easier resulting in a more accurate reading.
IT GETS A LITTLE TIRING TO READ ANSWERS THAT SEAM TO SAY,"I KNOW IT DUMMY WHY DON'T YOU "
If you can't remember back to being a newbie(that may be hard for some) just stay out of it.
Were here to learn and help others not pat any egos.
To eliminate the wobble of the wheels , I put a line on the tyres all around , and I measure from there the toe-in
One of my Model T mentors who ran/owned an alignment shop for most of his adult life taught me to do it the way Toon shows above. After making the marks on the tires, let the tires down onto the floor and roll the car back and forth a few times to get things settled in. Then take your measurements at spindle center level, front and back. The difference should be 3/16" - 1/4". Since one turn of the tie rod end = about 1/8", you should be able to get it within that tolerance.
I think that the only thing really needed here yet, and still not offered for some reason, is a simple apology. Since Ray stated originally that he didn't want to be rude, I would think that his apology should come easily....
This is what I do. I put a piece of masking tape on the front of each front wheel and use a framing square from the floor to the tire. Put the tape right where the square meets the tire. Then draw a straight mark on the tape. Measure the distance between the tires at the marks. Then roll the car either forward or backward to the point where the marks are even with the square placed at the back side of the wheels and measure the distance at that point. The back should be approx 3/16 to 1/4 inch wider than the front. If it does not meet that spec. adjust the rod to the point where it equal in front and and back or toes out slightly. Then lengthen the rod one complete turn to where you can install the bolt. That would be the best setting you can get without bending the spindle arms (which I don't recommend doing}. Give the car a test drive. It should pull straignt and not tend to wander from side to side.
I still remember my first posting on this forum. I was blasted for not knowing that Bruce had published a book called "Model T Ford" that provided additional evidence that refuted what had been previously published by Ray Miller and Bruce in "From Here to Obscurity." The answers implied that clearly everyone should know the hand Klaxon horns did not come from the factory on the 1915 cars.
As an individual I can be more inviting or less inviting to new folks or even those folks who have used the forum for years and years. I don't have to post anything so hopefully with I will remember to keep things positive or not post anything at all. I know I've not always managed to exercise that self-control -- but it is still a goal I try to accomplish.
I once checked into purchasing an older Porsche. I saw two Porsche owners in a parking lot next to their cars and I went over to ask them about their cars. It became clear to me that they thought I and anyone else was inferior to them if we did not own a Porsche. Those may be the only two Porsche owners in the world that ever came across that way -- but they were the first two I spoke with and the last two as I decided I was no longer interested in owning one of those cars.
The choice is mine and the choice is yours each time we tap away on the computer keys. Or when we drive our car and are asked a question at a car show or at the local store.
Thank you for your support to our hobby, club, and to our forums.
Hap l95 cut off
I guess it was somewhat akin to asking directions and being told to go buy a map at the store 10 miles away. It's a lot easier to be told the answer to your question rather than being made to feel like a fool for asking. Jim Patrick
This is why we have so many lurkers and few contributors ! Many newbies don't know what books are available and, some newbie posters and many lurkers know more about T's than many of us--they just don't want to get involved with the drama that often surfaces here when someone asks a question or makes a simple statement. Look at what happened recently when someone commented how great the T ran at Greenfield Village!