I just took my '26 coupe on a test drive after replacing the old roller timer with an old, original brown NOS "New Day" timer and brush I found in one of my parts boxes while looking for something else and what a difference it makes! She runs even smoother and quieter than before with virtually no vibration. I don't think I can get her to run much better than this. Now I know what the fans of the New Day timer have been gushing about for all these years when they swear by New Day. I should have put it on years ago but I forgot I had it.
It say "No oiling" on the front of it in raised letters, but common sense tells me I should lube it because the way it is, is metal to metal as the spring loaded brush slides against the flat contacts. I want to lube it with Vaseline so bad it's killing me so that it won't wear out so fast, but was advised not to by one who has been running New Days on all of his T's for many years, so I guess I'll fight the compulsion for now and perhaps it will go away. Can anyone tell me why they are not supposed to be lubricated? Jim Patrick
Because it tells you not to on the front
I assume it was a Ford roller you used to run?
Joe here who use to live in Apollo Beach and also Kings Point. I am the T guy who was offering to paint your car when you were running the Aerosol paint test. I taught day school at East Bay and Restoration classes at Tampa Bay Tech. for years there. I now SEE your 27 coupe...WOW! You PAINTED that with aerosols??????? I can't paint that good in my booth!
Jim for years I ran the new day and I used Vaseline to lube it. Non leaded grease. I do not know how old you are nor if you knew the guys I did when I was into Restoring the model T's at my Ruskin Restoration Facility on Hwy 41. Jess Bonar from Polk County was the one who told me to lube it with Vaseline. When I did not I would get copper dust inside the Brown cap and misfires would occur in the most inopportune times. So I am only inputting what I knew. I have not drove any of my T's in about 25 years or so I am sure there is now more information that someone else will impart more up-to-date knowledge to you. I loved my New Day timers. In time they DO wear grooves though as nothing I know of lasts forever not even the old Sears Die Hard Batteries! I DO miss those days when we believed that stuff though! LOL. I hope to finally meet you when I am back down there for a few days!! I would love to see your paint experiment in person! I am wondering why you did it though and also I do not think that type of paint would hold up w/o UV additives that are in auto paint.
PS Make that 30 years!!!! I sold my last running T 1911 to Glen Johnson in 1982.
ON ANOTHER note, I am removing my electronic Pertronics modules from my Hyster fork lift-trucks and early hot rods and am going back to points and condensers in the old distributors. I know that everyone will be laughing at me saying this but I am tired of replacing them and the cost!!!! UGH! One little glitch and they are no longer working and at more than $125.00 (CRAZY PRICES) a pop. I'm sticking with the old stuff because it is easier to trouble shoot, I have all the line boring reamers, and they are usually 1/10 the cost for repairs. I had to find the old guts to my 80's lift trucks Purolator distributors. I raced for many years and was always rebuilding distributors. Not because they wore out but I was always selling or trading off my cars. I started in 1969 with my ORIGINAL L-88 Corvette coupe I wish (I still had that one!!!) Only because of what they bring at auction!!!!! I had the new electronic distributor in it. I put two of those in that car in a couple of months! $180.00 each and NO guarantees (1969 prices)! I bought a 4 lobe Mallory distributor and lived happily after that. That car would honestly turn (rev) 8000 rpm at times. I shifted it usually at 7200 when at Bradenton Race way. So I am still old school and probably NOT going to change again. I have replaced maybe over a dozen electronic modules in my life. They go out at the WRONG times.
I ONLY told you this as I am SURE someone will try to convert you over to the new electronic units. They are impossible to repair. I told my supplier, Pertronics in Fla., that you'd think they could build one properly with a fuse or at least a replaceable electronic part that is usually the culprit!!!
Have fun and thanks for my conversation time with you again. I still have 12 T's to finish yet.
Thanks for all the info. I was Born in 1953 and will be 60 in November of this year. I knew Jess Bonar when he lived in a mobile home park in Polk City. I took my engine to his shop over there and he installed an outside oil line from my hogshead to the left side of the block. This was his invention and back then, he made them from scratch and was before they were sold on the market. It is much better, more efficient and gets much more oil to the front of the crankcase than the mag post outside oiler. I understand that he was good friends with Don Snyder who would come down to visit him.
The paint you see on my car is not the Rustoleum Appliance Epoxy I did the experiment with. While I use the aerosol appliance epoxy for small parts, I painted my '26 coupe in 1980 with Dupont Imron, which is what is still on there and still looks so good. Too bad it is no longer available, but I still have several gallons of Imron and activator I bought on ebay in case I need to touch it up, but it goes on so good and smooth and lasts just about forever that I haven't needed to touch it up. The shelf life on Imron is almost forever too.
Thanks for the advice on lubricating your New Day timer. Jess was a very knowledgeable T guy. A real old timer and a virtual human encyclopedia of Model T knowledge and stories. I wish he was still around. He'd love getting on this forum and teaching all of us a thing or two.
Since Jess approved of it, I think I'll lube my New day timer with Vaseline just to see what happens. I can always wipe it out if it stops working like it should, but I have a feeling it will work even better. I don't think it can hurt and should increase the life of the timer.
It was great to catch up.
Never greased mine but if i did it would probably collect all the dust and short out/miss when the caked grease make the brush skip.
I just coated the brush in Vaseline and spread a layer over the contacts. The car started fine and ran a little rough for a few seconds, then evened out and ran very smoothly. The car continued to run very smoothly and drove as nice as it did yesterday, before I lubricated it with Vaseline. I removed the timer to have a look inside and while the Vaseline is still covering the outside of the brush guide, the faces of the brush and contacts are clean of Vaseline. It appears that, after a few times around, the spring loaded brush scraped the contacts clean of Vaseline, so, while lubricating does no harm, it seems that, if it is all going to get scraped off, it does little good, as well. I would assume that the only way it would do any good is if one packed the timer full so that the Vaseline would continue to fall over the contacts and brush faces through gravity as the brush passed by, instead of being scraped away after a few revolutions. Has anyone ever tried packing a New Day Timer with Vaseline instead of lubricating with just a thin layer? I am going to try it and report back. I think that if a procedure can be established for lubricating the new day timer while allowing it to operate at maximum capacity, that the timer brush and contacts would not wear out nearly so fast and therefore, last indefinitely. Jim Patrick
I had problems with a roller timer and switched to a New Day timer on my '10 and have been very pleased with the noticeable results. I only wish I had a few more to use on my other cars.
Glad to get to know you more! I did not know you knew Jess Bonar!!!
Jess came from Ohio and photos of his 14 touring were in some of Syverson's books. Jess was the father of Don Snyder's Senior's wife! Not ALL of Jesses inventions were life saving to the T's! I have a few of his timers that he made for the 10 Fords out of brass. They were fine. But he sold several of us on his Crankshaft end play solver!!!! UGH!!!!!! It broke crankshafts in two!!!
He had this brainstorm that a brass washer installed behind the fan pulley would take up the endplay on a crankshaft! Several of us went for it and Jess installed it on our engines. Ran great for a while! Then all heck broke loose and the car stopped dead in it's tracks!!! It seems that the weight is on the rear of the crankshaft with the transmission and stopping the front end with his washer, prior to the rear main's thrust portion of the bearing, caused the cranks to flex. They don't do that very long! It was all of that that I learned to send all of my cranks to Homer Brackett. He submerged welded the throws, mains, and built back the end play portion of the cranks. $ back then... $450.00! This is 1975 $$. They were straightened, and beautiful!!!!! I kid you not but a little expensive. He would even make them oversized for some of my blocks that had normal wear. I had a BEAUTIFUL 13 block with only +.004 clean up with a line hone and he rebuilt my crank the +.002 over std. It ran really good after my putting it back together at East Bay High using the lathe to run it in. 1976 that was. I really DO miss ol Jesse!!!!! I have lost a LOT of my T buddies in my lifetime. I really miss Cecil Church coming down to Fla to winter with all of us. Talk about T knowledge. WOW! Cecil helped me a lot finding parts for my cars. I would like to have visited his Illinois shop and home. There were many more T buddies and I miss them. Today no one knows me at all in the sport it seems. I guess I'm becoming a fossil LOL.
Hope we get to meet this next winter/ spring when or if I get to come home for a visit.
I use to use the Imron in my restoration shop!!! GREAT paint! Designed for the airlines!!! In 1977 I ended up at Tampa General for a couple of days. I could NOT get any oxygen in my lungs!!!!!! Not fun at all. It was night and I had just finished a 73 Corvette paint job. Using a std dual filter face/ nose mask. I did NOT KNOW about Isocyonates! I got taken to TGH and was put on O2 in the ambulance. I did not know what was happening????? I was trying to rip my chest apart and grab my ribcage and pump my lungs full of air!! Not a fun thing to have happen! What saved me was that I went outside and fell into my bushes breathing the cold damp air. I had to stop panicking too! Hard to do in that situation! The visitors called the 911 call and the emergency station was only a few blocks away. I was also a volunteer fireman for them. So it all went well but that was how I learned about the NEW IMRON paint. It had only came onto the market a few weeks prior to this incident. Before Dupont bought it out I used Amerflint. It was invented and made right there in Tampa (Ebor City area). Now that was a great paint!! Too. No Isocynates! It became their Centari line. But it was NEVER the same quality. I still have several gallons of that stuff. I also found out where to get the hardener so I will be using it up.
Jim you will understand most of this stuff because YOU are not that far apart from everything that I am talking about.
Take care and stay out of the heat! I have been finishing up the roof on my new paint room and blasting building today with the wife and boy was it hot. I drank at least 2 gallons of water! (Between the two of us). Thank God I had help. She also went to work tonight after working all day with me... What a woman!
Hi Joseph. Thanks for the warning on the Imron paint. I have heard stories of painters who used it and were able to pull a long string of cured Imron from their nasal passages and the back of their throat. That is probably what happened to you. You breathed it in and it began curing in your lungs. I think even the new Imron has the capability of causing serious problems with the lungs if the proper precautions are not taken. You can still find Imron in the old green and white paint cans on Ebay. I have bought it and the activator, and though 20 years old, is still as good as when new. As long as it is not mixed with the activator it has a very, very long shelf life, like forever.
I first met Jess Bonar while a student at Florida Southern College in about 1978 at a party thrown by one of my professors, Jeff Wiley. He was a Model A guy and everyone at the party were A guys, so I didn't have much to say. At one point in the conversation I mentioned my 1926 Coupe and I noticed Jess perk up and make his way over to me. We two talked about T's for the rest of the night (well, he talked and I listened) until the party ended. He invited me to Polk City to his shop and showed me around. During the tour, he showed me his outside hogshead oiler and I immediately wanted one. The next week I took my engine out and took it to him. He wanted to do other things to my engine while it was apart, but as a destitute college student I could not afford more than the outside oiler. I guess I'm glad I couldn't. LOL!
I hear it's supposed to get really hot this weekend out west (130 in Death Valley) and the Midwest maybe where you are. Take care and don't get too hot.
Okay. Just tried packing the new day timer with Vaseline. Very hard starting and rough running, once started. Cleaned out the packed Vaseline except for just a thin layer and she cranked right up and purred like a kitten. They can be lubed but not much. Just a thin layer to decrease wear on the brushes and contacts. Jim Patrick
Using Imron paint without a respirator or some type of filtered mask is comparable to sandblasting without any filtered hood or mask.
Its not real good for the user.
I showed my timer to Jess it had wear inside where the brass contact blocks were cast into the brown plastic cap. Like a commutator does on Generators and starters. (grooves) Ever so slight but just enough to leave copper particles inside my timer. They came from Gaslight so I do not know if they were the repops you all talk about or not. ??? I had maybe driven about a thousand miles total in my 25 touring I had restored in 1967. This would have been in about 1974. He told me to put some Vasoline in it as it was not leaded. We cleaned it with steel wool and I went back home to Apollo Beach and put a dab inside it. I noticed that it ran ok and I also saw that it ran out of the drain hole after it heated up. Mine did NOT say "Do NOT oil" either or I would have noticed it I would think. But to say that as gospel I can't remember. I DO know that he told me to Vasoline it. He was the T expert...(NOT ME!). I was ALWAYS learning from those guys!!! THEY were the authority and I was just a guy building, showing, and racing my cars (not racing nor modifying any of my T's). I am still to this day NOT an authority on anything!! I just know what I have seen, done and had the interest to LOOK at the fellas with the REAL cars and make notes. I have had a LOT of really NEAT instructors over the years. I have also had the blow-hards, misinformed, and story tellers around me too. I call them wishers. I also make mistakes ( more as I seem to get older). I cannot tell a photo of a Chevrolet from a Dodge unless I am looking at the radiator shell emblem in real life and with my glasses on! I have also ran into the fellas who know it all about the T's and really do not. There are obvious differences on some cars that there is a big discrepancy on when exactly things were changed on them from the factories (all over the world). The most REAL changes came from the Michigan factory as they were where the starting point in mfg. Rev'd on the dwg. and finally put into production. I spent 3 years in a Reynolds Foundry in a (gray Iron)one as well as their Non Ferrous ones. I learned a lot in those years. Industry is industry. Production break-in points are all the same in manufacturing. All controlled by the agreement meetings of ALL of the dept heads, engineering, and depletion of all stock of phasing out parts. Many of those parts that are being phased out were sent to the stock room for warranty work. We did the break drums for many manufacturers and also the REYCO over the road suspension systems. I later worked for Ridewell Suspensions too. Same thing there in product manufacturing and getting everything shipped out the door and on time. It was hard demanding work and I am sure that the Ford plants were NO DIFFERENT. We had castings, weldments, machine shops, paint shops, shipping departments, and even a steel fab shop there in-house. Made me a great instructor in the industrial trades schools later on when we started having lay-offs everywhere in the USA in late 60's and 70's. Engineers were even managing Hamburger Joints to feed their families back then when ever government contracts were filled or cut back. All that training even really helped with my racing back in the day. Let alone building cars up from JUNK.
This was just a reply on the New Day Timer that I read that you are not suppose to put anything inside it. The copper brush the way I remember it had a pin in it to keep it from exiting the brush holder. You say to not put anything in it (not you Jim) but how do you stop it from rubbing against the 4 flat copper segments? anytime you have contact with similar materials you have wear. So go figure.
John and Jim
DO NOT USE a filter mask with the Imron!!!!! That is EXACTLY what I had on!!!!!
The Isosyninates are a vapor and pass thru the mask filters suitable for lacquer and enamel paints!!!! It is the Iso's that paralyze the air sacks! I came VERY CLOSE to dying that night. It was the Florida night plus the O2 given off by the plants that I was laying in plus it was chilly and so the o2 was low to the ground. That is what the Dr's said when we all talked about it.
I had to purchase a Binks $1800.00 Air hood unit after this to do ANY more painting. I still use it today.
It has a 40 foot hose on it so it sets inside a clean room and pumps air which is filtered be 2 filters. DO NOT use a mouth/nose filter mask!!!
Jim give me some feedback here so that I know that you read this!
Thanks Joseph. We use 3M positive flow tyvek air hoods at work. I'll be sure and borrow one from work next time I use Imron. Thank you for the warning.
Sounds as if you have had quite a career. It's always the modest guys like yourself who don't claim to be an authority on anything that I tend to listen to.
Jess was an authority on Model T's and a teacher who taught those that had a desire to learn from him. He was very interesting and I learned a lot from him. He didn't just talk the talk, he walked the walk. It's reassuring that he recommended lubricating the New day with Vaseline. Now I know it is the right thing to do.
I installed a Ford script drum type tail/stop light on my T today. It has a nickel cover and really looks good. When I hit the brake the upper portion, lights up with "STOP" behind the red glass. Jim Patrick
These subjects have all been covered thoroughly in past threads. Why doesn't anyone read them.
The original New Day timer has a brass brush. This is a good electrical contact but will cause wear on the mating surface of the timer because it is a semi-hard material. If you fashion a replacement brush using an old large carbon generator brush you will have a brush that is a good electrical contact, self lubricating and will cause no damage to the timer. You will have to replace the carbon brush a little more often but you will never have to buy a new timer.
We shouldn't mind revisiting a subject for as many times as it takes and should never complain about it. Some members are new and don't know how to search the archives for the answer they seek and when older members complain, it makes them feel as if they are creating an imposition.
I have been on this forum for over 12 years and know how to access past threads for the answers and I do read past posts, but we get new members all the time that may have a new take on the subject, so don't assume that, just because a question is asked that the questioner hasn't read past threads on the subject. Sometimes I re-ask a question just to bring up an interesting subject that has not been addressed for awhile that others may benefit from, plus, as I mentioned, I may get a new idea that was not addressed in past threads.
The purpose of this forum is to inform and provide a place for discussion and the exchange of experiences and ideas and it baffles me when some members complain that, if you want an answer, to visit past threads for the answer, as if it is an inconvenience to bring up a subject that has been discussed in the past.
In the many years in which this Forum has been in existence, virtually every subject on the Model T has been discussed, virtually every question has been asked many times in one form or another and so virtually any answer can be found in past threads, so why do members continue to re-ask questions or re-visit a subject that has been discussed many times before, instead of going for the answer in the archives? Maybe going to the archives for some is boring or their search is unsuccessful. Maybe they enjoy the comraderie with other like minded individuals, or enjoy talking about a subject that they know a little about.
If it, somehow, became forbidden to revisit old subjects, or re-ask questions, as some of our members seem to advocate, this forum would become a very boring place and would not be here for very long. As it is, this is one of the best designed, most informative and active forums on the internet, with very knowledgeable and enthusiastic members, willing to help others, even if it entails posting the same answer to the same questions time after time, so we should thank our lucky stars we have it and not do anything to discourage it.
Well said, Jim. In my case there are times when I know a question has been covered before but I'm not a good enough searcher to find it, so I ask. And sometimes a repeated question will elicit new information that didn't appear in previous answers.
Well said, Jim.
And to add to that, the search function on this site is one of its weaker points, much like Model T brakes. Sometimes it works, sort of; sometimes it leaves you scratching your head.
So when someone asks a question which has been asked before, it doesn't automatically mean that he hasn't tried to search for the answer.
Mike - I agree, and to add to what you just said, it's of course pretty critical in regard to conducting your search; you must put in the right words, sometimes I think it's possible to put in too many words, and sometimes you don't in enough words,.....it all "just depends".
Rather than use the search function on this site, I find it MUCH easier and simpler to type whatever my issue is into Google and then add "MTFCA" on the end.
For instance, not sure about torque specs for your head?
"Torque head bolts mtfca" entered into Google brings up DOZENs of previous threads and here's the best part - the date of the thread is the first thing under the link. So if you think it was this year, just look at the 2013 links, if you think it was from a few years ago, 2009 is up there. Sometimes you may need to go back a page or two. If you have a decent idea of what you are looking for, I can find virtually ANYthing Model T related if it was ever on this board in a matter of seconds.
However, if you can't find what you want, just ask again. I've only been on the board a little over a year and have seen probably upwards of a dozen threads on oil.
Also someone may have a new view on the subject and can pass it on to all.
"Torque head bolts mtfca" also works in Bing.
Jim, I gave you a time proven answer to your problem and all I got back was a lot of criticism, not a single thank you. Sorry I bothered.
Thank you Glen. You are definitely a valuable contributor to, not only this forum, but to our hobby as a whole and it is because of the high degree of respect we have for you as a highly knowledgeable authority on Model T's and a Model T parts supplier that I was so surprised to see your answer begin with an admonishment that we should first search for the answer in past threads instead of asking the question. That type of criticism is really unnecessary and, as I pointed out and others agree, this serves no purpose other than to make members feel that their question is an imposition, which this forum should never do. We must make EVERYONE feel welcome. If I embarrassed you or made you feel like saying "sorry I bothered", that is just the thing a new member might think to himself when asking a question and told by a senior member that his question has been asked countless times before and to search the archives first... then we never hear from him again. Let's please stop telling members who ask questions, to search the archives instead of giving him the answer he needs. Jim Patrick
Jim, you are right the forum is a valuable source of information but after a question has been asked and answered numerous times it becomes a little redundant. A simple search will usually find the needed information. Everyone wants to help the new guys but the new guys should be willing to do a little research.
Do exactly as Glen advises and that New Day will give you good service. I read that some here have said to lube this type of timer but that is not the best.
I just finished running the Montana 500 race using a New Day with a CARBON type brush instead of the hard copper one and it performed flawless.
It had been run about three races before me.
Sometimes i want to know something obscure that has been asked before but not the exact same situation and the prior threads did not cover it extensively enough. Plus sometimes you just need a new thread just because.
Glen. They are doing a little research. They are coming onto the forum and asking the question. If everyone got their answers by going to past threads, there would be no one to discuss anything with. I much prefer a full discussion of the subject among many knowledgeable members, where we might possibly learn something new, as opposed to looking up and reading an old thread where there is no discussion nor exchange of new information and ideas and I certainly don't mind repeating an answer for new members who have never seen the answer before, nor are familiar with the search function. I guess if it is redundant for you, you can pass up the threads you know are a rehashing of often asked questions, but then we would not get the benefit of your advice, which may contain the new information we seek. Jim Patrick
As you said earlier if we all did a thorough search on our problem, there would BE no forum.
I enjoy the constant new input and I also appreciate when someone references an old post.
Very good point Bud. Sometimes I do a search on the forum for a particular thread, say, for a wiring diagram or an assembly chart and am unable to find the thread I am looking for, so I ask the question and chances are someone helpful like Hal will post several past threads that, more likely than not, contain the exact thread I was searching for. These help to, not only, give me the answer I am seeking it helps refresh the memories of others and contributes to the discussion that follows. Jim Patrick
Gene, Thanks for verifying my suggestion. I too have used this idea for many years and just wanted to share it "AGAIN" It solves all of the New Day timer problems and requires no lubrication. Also suggested before, using Vasoline as the lubricant in a Tiger Timer solves most of that timers problems.I will try to keep my other opinions to myself.
Glen, I do intend on getting a generator brush and following your suggestion to make a brush for my New Day timer. Are the dimensions exactly the same as the existing copper brush? Is it shaped to the proper size using sandpaper? What do I use for a spring? Should I drill a 1/8" deep hole in the backside of the brush and embed the spring in the carbon brush and secure with epoxy? I'm concerned that the spring could turn sideways if not somehow secured to the brush. What about the small guide that keeps the brush from popping out? Thanks again. Jim Patrick
Jim, I form a new carbon brush to the exact same dimensions as the original brush using a bench grinder. I then drill a hole for the pin and press it in. If the pin is a little loose just use some epoxy. The spring can be retained by drilling a small hole in the back side of the brush. You should lengthen the brush by the same amount that you recess it. Otherwise get a new spring that is bigger in diameter and will not turn sideways in the holder. I think you will be [pleased with the results. Glen
Thank you Glen. You've been a big help to me. Thanks to everyone else who posted as well. This has been a very enlightening thread for me. Sincerely, Jim Patrick
I've been running a New Day timer for some time and the only problem was the brush spring would brake. I read some where to replace the spring with a spring from a ball point pen. So why not try it . Working fine. You may have to cut a couple loops to get the right tension. If your on the road this would be a quick fix.