Which jack would be correct for a 1912 Model T

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Which jack would be correct for a 1912 Model T
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Colin Mavins on Wednesday, July 03, 2013 - 04:24 pm:

I have a number of old Model T jacks all with the handle attached but one the handle is not. It has only part numbers on it s j 625 602 604 Does anyone have any thoughts on this Thanks Colin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, July 03, 2013 - 04:37 pm:

The jack was first time standard equipment for 1913 model year. I found a letter at the Henry Ford Museum that was sent to dealers. It was in very late 1912 and well after October 1, 1912 thus it was during the 1913 model year. In that letter Ford advised dealers that for 1913 cars Ford was going to offer as standard equipment a jack and for open cars a top boot. Dealers were thereby advised they could make requisition on Ford Motor company for a jack and also for top boots for roadster and touring cars. The letter made strong language to the effect that Ford would NOT honor any request for either item for cars made before October 1, 1912 since those cars were 1912 models.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Colin Mavins on Wednesday, July 03, 2013 - 04:49 pm:

Hello John What I'm looking for I guess is what would the owner of a 1912 Model t put in his car for a jack, for the past 52 years there has been a jack with the handle attached in the trunk which we have never had to use. I think is a later unit 1920s Thanks for this info I will put this in my T history Book Thanks Colin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles W. Little South Paris, Maine on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 11:15 am:

I have several Ford Time magazines from 1911 and 1912 that have this ad for Buckeye jacks in them. So, since Ford did not supply one, this type would be appropriate.

jack ad


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 12:01 pm:

I would agree that a jack would not be a tool to not have and Ford probably caved in to pressure to supply one for just that reason. Certainly any aftermarket jack that was for sale during the period of 1909-1912 would not be out of character to find in a 1912 soon after purchase. I suspect dealers likely added something like that at customer request or perhaps even recommending such an item to a customer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 02:05 pm:

But, what does the 1913 jack look like? What company made it? How long was it used?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 02:22 pm:

I thought jacks weren't added until 1917. ???

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/S-T.htm#tool


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 03:36 pm:

Ken:

That is got to be an error because just look at the Factory number for the jack and notice it is only 3 numbers after tools that were assigned in 1913. The actual jack design may have changed for 1917 but most of the tools were formalized for 1913. For instance the date of first drawing of the various "standard" tools only exist starting in early 1913 model year. There are a few things but most of the tool drawings are first dated in that era. Ford may have supplied some tools earlier than 1912 but it appears they didn't bother to make drawings of them to formalize the exact type of tool you were getting. Ford assigned factory numbers pretty much as they were needed and those numbers by themselves can often give you a clue as to when it was created. Almost all of the Delivery Car part numbers created in 1911-1912 were in the 5xxx range. For awhile Ford did reserve certain ranges of factory numbers for various functional catagories of parts but they didn't stick with that for too long. One thing that really screwed up the numbering was that in 1919 when they brought out the starter/generator/electrical system they needed a ton of new factory numbers so they decided to re-use old numbers that had been obsolete since the brass era. That may have worked OK for them but created a nightmare for us now. Look for an early carb part and The Henry Ford sends you a drawing for a starter brush spring or something. Not totally their fault.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 04:18 pm:

I had found a jack marked Ford in block letters a couple of years ago, and put a photo of it on the forum.
Kim Dobbins said it was an early one that had been silver painted originally. It had remnants of silver paint on it.
I have tried a search to find it but could not come up with it.

Herb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 05:04 pm:

Herb

Here is link to your post on early jacks

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/80257.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles W. Little South Paris, Maine on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 05:08 pm:

Try this

www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/98534.html?1247930324


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 05:15 pm:

Thanks Charles

Messed up that link in my post...using the wife's iPad and don,t have the hang of it yetl


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles W. Little South Paris, Maine on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 05:16 pm:

I have 3 of the jacks like Herb found. Two had silver paint, one had NO paint. The most recent MTFCI Judging guidelines now state the early jacks were BLACK. I'm not sure I believe that. I think there are too many with silver paint, in different geographical locations, for that to be a coincidence. I would believe that the later jack, with integrated handle were black. I would like to hear what Kim Dobbins thinks about this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles W. Little South Paris, Maine on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 05:19 pm:

Two of my jacks:

jack


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 05:39 pm:

Charles-
It looks like the dark jack on the right would be hard to operate that way. Maybe it should go to David Chantrell...

: ^ )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Skille on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 07:58 pm:

My FORD jacks as in the picture above have the original silver paint on them. I have not seen an original that was painted black.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles W. Little South Paris, Maine on Friday, July 05, 2013 - 08:16 am:

Don,
Thanks for the input.
Charlie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter on Friday, July 05, 2013 - 09:41 am:

Those jacks with Ford on them seem to be rather rare. Were they used for a short time in 1913? If so, what jack was used after that and for how long? Was it the standard Buckeye No. 00 with no Ford script? When was the switch made to the common jack with the small Ford script?

That Buckeye ad from 1911-12 recommends the No. 03 for the Ford. Was that a much heaver-duty jack than the No. 00? These are just a few questions I still have about the early jacks after them being discussed several times in the last 5 years. If nobody knows, then nobody knows.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Friday, July 05, 2013 - 06:16 pm:

If the jacks have "original silver paint on them" then they aren't from the Model T era. Silver and metallic paints didn't even exist until at least 1928 and weren't in use until the 30s.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Friday, July 05, 2013 - 07:14 pm:

I might also add; metallic paints didn't appear on cars until the late 40s. On top of that, the early silver paints were crude and appeared more grey than silver. The carriers (solvents) and paint solids wouldn't allow the metal particles to stay suspended.

So if you have a silver jack, it can't possibly be from the Model T era. Just sayin'.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Friday, July 05, 2013 - 07:24 pm:

Ken, just for interest, my Dad's 1937 Holden bodied Master deluxe sedan had green metallic paint.
The more limited local production may have allowed more adventurous innovation in production methods, like the one man tops and slant windscreens on 1920 Ts.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Friday, July 05, 2013 - 07:49 pm:

Yeah, I should have been specific. Metallic on US cars. :-)

Australia was ahead of it's time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Friday, July 05, 2013 - 09:38 pm:

Ken, I would have to disagree on the age of silver paint you mention. Early chassis and engine parts for the alphabet ford cars ( A,AC,B,C,F,K,N,R,S,) had a lot of silver painted parts. Lots of turn of the century penny arcade machines were painted silver originally.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Friday, July 05, 2013 - 11:14 pm:

Not possible. Sorry.

Perhaps you are mistaking terne or zinc plating for silver paint.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, July 06, 2013 - 12:25 am:

Silver colored paint certainly did exist prior to 1928.

Here is a 1909 Minnesota license plate. I took this photo and have seen many in person. The color is silver.

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Saturday, July 06, 2013 - 01:07 am:

LOL... That's not even original. The originals were black characters on red-orange. The black wasn't even paint; it was more of an ink printed over a white primer. The black often wore or washed off leaving the primer. Many examples have the black missing. Someone painted the characters silver. I can see the brush strokes. What a joke of an example.

Here's an "original" showing the fading black and primer. No silver here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Skille on Saturday, July 06, 2013 - 01:09 am:

Ken seems to know more then I do about paint,but that tells me that Buckeye Jack Mfg Co was ahead of time with their paint. The jacks that Charles pictured above were silver. I would rather that they were black but they were not, and mine will stay silver.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Saturday, July 06, 2013 - 01:26 am:

In addition. The number 3 plate you posted has been repainted. The primer was printed over the red-orange not over the entire plate as is showing in the chips at the top of your example.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Saturday, July 06, 2013 - 01:33 am:

Sure Don, and air conditioning was a Ford option for the Model T in 1909. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, July 06, 2013 - 01:52 am:

Sorry Ken, but you are incorrect.

1909 Minnesota plates are silver over red. That is a statement of fact.

It is possible to polish through the silver and all you will have left is the red plate. There is no primer. (By the way, I'm aware of the rusty plate you posted as it was recently listed on eBay.)

The plate I posted is an original Minnesota license plate with original paint. The plate has been Simonized and waxed. The white you are seeing in the edges chips is car wax.

Below is the same plate from a different angle along with an original 1910 and 1911 (the 1911 is porcelain - notice the chips, especially from the two extra holes drilled by the original owner). They were all issued to the same individual.

I have other 1909 Minn plates in better condition that I can take photos of for you.

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, July 06, 2013 - 01:54 am:

By the way Ken, here is a period photo - how about those black letters and digits on the 1909 Minnesota plate?

LOL!!!!!

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, July 06, 2013 - 02:30 am:

Ken:

Here's another period photo with a 1909 Minnesota plate. This time it's a Model S Ford. The original photo resides in the Minnesota Historical Society.

Funny how those black letters and digits show up as a light color in the photo, as if they were SILVER instead of black....

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles W. Little South Paris, Maine on Saturday, July 06, 2013 - 10:00 am:

Is there a difference between (metallic) silver paint and "silver colored" paint??????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, July 06, 2013 - 10:45 am:

Metallic paint is a specific type of paint. Supposedly, it was introduced by DuPont in 1928.

Shades of silver paint and gold paint were available long before the introduction of metallic paint.

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Saturday, July 06, 2013 - 09:09 pm:

I rehabbed an old industrial building that suffered a fire in 1912. Right after the fire, every square inch of the inside of the building was painted in a silver colored paint. I threw out the 90 year old buckets of old paint recently. Many , many farm type tools and implements were painted silver originally ,INCLUDING those early jacks. I think i know the difference between terne, zinc, cadmium, and silver paint, having restored antiques since the early 1970's. To state categorically that there was no such thing as silver paint until 1928 is just ignorant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, July 06, 2013 - 10:09 pm:

I believe Ken Kopsky is correct about what is referred to as "metallic paint." I believe it was introduced in 1928 by DuPont.

Metallic paint is a specific type of paint which I understand is available in ANY color, including white and black.

Therefore, silver paint may or may not be metallic paint. An item painted silver prior to 1928 could not have been done with metallic paint. An item painted silver 1928 or later has metallic paint only if metallic paint was actually used.

For example: if I paint my Pontiac with aluminum paint, it will be silver, but aluminum paint is not "metallic paint."

Hope this makes sense.

http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/visitor/b/dr/s/color/CI-WhatIs-PearlMet.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter on Sunday, July 07, 2013 - 09:08 pm:

I believe that air conditioning was a option for the Model T in 1909. For some reason it only worked in the winter time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, July 07, 2013 - 09:35 pm:

Another down side was the heater just worked in the summer time. Apparently Henry worked so hard getting the Model T on the road, he got his seasons mixed up. Thankfully, the car came out just fine.


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