In this photo taken by Asiana Airlines flight 214 passenger Eugene Anthony Rah, passengers walk away from the Boeing 777 aircraft after a crash-landing at San Francisco International Airport, on July 6, 2013. Some can be seen carrying luggage and other carry-on items, spurring widespread criticism. (Reuters/Eugene Anthony Rah) #
Such gallantry, walking away, texting, while others are still trapped aboard.
Such people should be charged with a crime. The guy taking the pic was another pax, no better.
"honey, when you see the crashed plane on TV, don't worry, I'm fine"
and you'd have him charged with a crime?
hhhmmmmmmmm. Only in California.
Those are slides not ladders. How are you supposed to go save other people if you can't get back in the plane?
I think the people who let the pilots crew leave with no drug test?? Bud. If you don't need drug testing to fly into [our] country because your foreien something's wrong! Bud.
You cannot possibly judge people of another culture by your expectations. You have taken for granted that the "American way" of always trying to do the right thing as being universal. It isn't.
"Such people should be charged with a crime". For what, being different than you and I?
We have enough useless laws on the books. We don't need another.
In an FAR part 121, 125 or 135 air carrier evacuation the crew members order the passengers to depart the aircraft and get as far away from the aircraft as possible. Passengers are not advised to render aid, in fact they are expected to remove themselves so that rescue personnel can attend to those who are not self mobilizing.
Most people are not trained in CPR and first aid and could cause more injury to a fellow passenger than if they left them behind. I see nothing wrong with grabbing your purse or back pack, but I agree the guy with the suitcase has gone too far.
The big question is why they waited on the ground 90 seconds before deploying the slides.
I imagine rescue efforts would be much more difficult if you had an extra 100-200 people in the way. Those people are untrained in airplane evacuations and just lived through what was probably the scariest and most traumatic experience of their life.
I'd like to know what "crime" you'd charge them with for exiting a burning airplane wreckage.
My daughter was a flight attendant for TWA (R.I.P.) for three years. I'll ask her how the flight crew in a situation like that would feel about a bunch of untrained passengers "helping" instead of evacuating.
Her favorite bumper sticker in those days read, "The flight attendant's job is to save your ass, not kiss it.."
Here's another shot of some of the passengers. :-)
The despicable thing about the carry on luggage is that anyone who takes the time to grab their bag, potentially kills another person at the end of the line. The a##hole in the foreground should be fined or jailed as he could be IDed rather easy
More despicable behavior was for the bureaucrats to require ambulances to be held until there were five before proceeding to the crash.
So you want these despicable bureaucrats to create laws fining or jailing other people for their perceived behavior.
Right. Makes sense.
Posts should be related to the Model T. Off Topic - OT - posts are allowed but should still be hobby related. Political posts and posts insulting other posters will be removed.
Post for the good of the hobby.
you didn't notice the O T at the beginning of this thread???
This website is much more than just T related.
Nobody insulted anyone, they just posted their different opinions.
What we learned from this thread could save our lives some day. There are posts in this thread from men who have lived their lives on and around airplanes.
While I can't believe there was absolutely no panic it may have been extremely orderly and under those conditions snatching your stuff wouldn't be a problem. Must have been relatively calm. Most thought the same way about carry-ons. "We're down, dangers over". If the fire had started immediately it'd be another story.
Charlie, according to reports, the passengers were not allowed to exit until the stewardesses smelled smoke. When there is smoke on an airplane, no one should slow the egress of all other passengers by saving their dirty laundry.
Personally I wouldn't be sitting there waiting for the stewardesses to hand out sticks and marshmallows before doing the "feet's don't fail me now" thing!
You are right, the correct approach would be for all airlines to ban the fellow headed home with his carry on baggage while others are trying to get out of the plane.
I do not place law enforcement in the same category as the chief transportation coordinator of emergency vehicles of Los Angeles County.
If i offended anyone im sorry as my spelling and wordsmithing is a fault.What i tryed to imply was that if you drive for hire you are subject to drug testing.The news i heard was that because the pilots were foreien they were not subject to drug testing!Nope,not gudgeing anyone except our people who permit stupid!! Bud.
I agree with you Bud. The crew should have been made to pee in a bottle. If they in fact were not I'm guessing it was because the "officials" messed up rather than some agreement (but we'll never know).
It's only a crime if they take someone elses luggage when they leave.
LOL! Thank you, Jay, I needed a laugh.
I actually read a "Plane Evacuation Manual" some years ago. It clearly stated that all carry-on luggage was to be left behind "including purses" for reasons of timeliness and orderliness. It went on to explain that suitcases may have edges or corners that could damage the inflatable slides. It had also stated that shoes should be removed. That may have been left to the discretion of the flight personnel.
Of course, a foreign owned airline may have different rules. They would be the ones sued by the families of those trapped on an exploding plane by ineffective procedures.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Unless you have been in in actual plane crash under the exact same circumstances - it is not a good idea to comment on the actions of others .....
I am afraid you are wrong, if one does not learn from the past, they will repeat it. Everyone who took the time to grab their purse or carry on bag was putting the lives of those behind them in jeopardy. If these people are not made an example of, every self important person will think it is their right to save their belongings at the risk of killing some one. Under no circumstance should personal items that the passenger is not wearing be taken off the plane, even if it is a brief case with a million in cash, it is not worth the risk to the other people. It takes precious time and risks blocking the aisle or door.
Your logic says we should not criticize the pilot for flying into the ground because we have not done the same.
Well the plane might be from over seas but when it lands here,it needs to be operated under our laws and pee test should be a no brainer.
People apparently over yonder aint taught the value of life,they just look after them selves and to heck with everyone else.Not a foriegn problem only though.Seems it sprouted here from a seed years ago here in the US.There is no way i would leave a crashed airplane and not do what I could to help,and I doubt there is many here that would walk away from others in trouble either.
My dad was in Europe in the 50's serving in the army and he witnessed a wreck on the autoban "spelling". He said that he and some others wanted to help a fellow and tried but it was unforgettable listening to that man scream as he burned to death. But I guess some folks now judgeing from what I read here would be texting about it or filming it to send out on facebook and consider it normal and acceptable.
You are supposed to exit the plane as quickly as possible so that those behind you will have a chance to get out. There is no time to pick up personal carry on items. They are not as important as human life! They can text, or call after they are out of dangers way!
By the way, the news this afternoon is that another passenger has died, leaving the death toll now at 3.
Hi Guys, you need to look on the good side here as well, at least he got it down with only a couple of dead and one of those is now suspect to ground traffic according to the world news, I once flew into San Francisco in 1970 and a Jumbo had crashed and there were dead every were so it could have been the lot dead and for drug test pee is good for 48 hours but the hair is good for much longer. Ray
Actually there was no reason for it to crash in the first bloody place! The pilot wasn't checked out on this aircraft, he was familiar with something much smaller. He let his air speed drop below the flying requirements for this plane and he ignored the warning buzzer (whither he wants to admit it or not). Culturally, the co-pilot (who was checked out on this aircraft) can't inform the pilot of his mistake(s) because the pilot would lose face (this is a big no no and a real problem all Asian cultures), so he sat there quietly (probably praying to whatever he holds as God to deliver him from the idiot pilots mistakes) and let the bloody pilot drop too low (and way to slow), lose the tail section and bounce happily down the runway.
Our FAA can examine the black box, reconstruct the landing path and paw through the crash site and that's about it. We can't enforce our policies and guidelines on a foreign owned airline. We can only make suggestions and recommendations but we can't hold the guilty accountable. It's entirely up to the operating country and company to accept our advice or not. Since we can't tell a foreign company how to fly their airline, that means this pilot will very likely go home and get another plane to try again...hopefully, he'll get some training on it first, but I doubt it he'll be hailed as a hero for bring the plane down with very few or no causalities, flight crews doesn't count as causalities, paying customers do.
It's very simple,If we as in the USA can't make the foreign companys/airlines conforme simple keep them out!!It was said [we don't need any more laws.]To let this continue is far worst than stupid,it's criminal!! Bud.
It's very simple,If we as in the USA can't make the foreign companys/airlines conforme simple keep them out!!It was said [we don't need any more laws.]To let this continue is far worst than stupid,it's criminal!! Bud.
We in the U.S could easily make foreign companies conform by keeping them out if they don't want to play ball by our rules.
The airline that we are posting about brings people in and out of the U.S from India, China and Korea every day.
If we just get some Americans to run our country such craziness could be stopped.
But we don't want to offend anybody.
There are airlines that will take you to South America from Mexico that are not allowed to fly in the U.S. because of maintenance rules that they do not want to comply with.
I always read the evacuation chart and instructions while we are on the tarmac, and often (if I can "fix" it), am in the exit isle where there's more leg room. One plane's instructions were to open the emergency door, and carefully place it on the two seats, out of the way of passengers exiting. Sorry guys, if I am opening that door, the plane is not likely to ever be used again--I'm tossing that door OUT of the plane in a big hurry so we can all get out fast. Who writes these things???
BTW, I understand the pilot announced to not evacuate the plane initially!
Thank you David D! My second belly-laugh for the day (throwing the door out of the plane) Oops. I guess it is the first belly-laugh of 7-13. Being just after midnight here.
I, too, try to sit in the exit isle. I have never been in a plane crash, but have been in enough emergency situations that I trust me there. Plus, I read those instructions every time I am on a plane (which isn't often).
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
I think you need to consider one more factor with this. The people on board this aircraft after slamming to the ground and realizing what has happened are most likely in "shock". They can react as if its just another day but given some time may wake up to the fact that they came very close to checking out. The 777 is a fly-by-wire aircraft which has no real physical controls in the cockpit. Any deviation has to be programmed and is very difficult to do quickly. When the first fly-by-wire aircraft started to be added to the fleets the pilots moving from the old stick and rudders to the new computer cockpit were horrified to think that the manual controls didn't exist. I can recall many pilots actually considered getting out of the industry to avoid flying a aircraft that didn't actually have hard controls. Today pilots are trained from the beginning on stick and rudder and through time end up being computer monitors with nothing more than a lunch tray in front of them. The 777 has a joy stick not unlike the Microsoft Game Joystick with simulated effects of what the aircraft is doing. The role of the pilots is nothing more than to sit back and let the computers do the work. If something goes wrong their is very little time to reprogram and correct.
A 777 cockpit requires two things. A pilot and a dog, the pilot to feed the dog and the dog to bite the pilot if he touches anything in the cockpit. That comment came from a Boeing engineer I met on a business trip a few years back. This plane should have basically landed itself, it came in to low and slow, it will be pilot error from lack of training. The FAA just changed the law on pilot experience two days after the crash.
And from all of the above comments, this is why I DO NOT fly anymore! First thing I would never do is trust my ass 35,000 feet in the air to a friggin computer BUILT IN CHINA folks!! And, don't forget, the plane was built by the lowest bidder!!!...........
True, the 777 is fly by wire. BFD. It flies just like any other plane. And it flies manually just like any other US made jet transport.
The flight control computers and much of the other electronics in the 777 is made in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and Phoenix, Arizona.
A problem arises with the subtlety of the autothrottle modes in Boeing airplanes. The pilot of this plane was expecting autothrottles to maintain his speed, when they had been only Armed and not Engaged. That's what I have seen so far.
Here's a prior example:
25 Feb 2009, Turkish Airlines Flight 1951, a Boeing 737–800, registration: TC-JGE, named Tekirdađ, carrying 135 passengers, crashed while approaching Schiphol Airport,Netherlands. Nine people died, including the three pilots. 86 passengers were transported to local hospitals. The preliminary results of the Dutch investigation found that a faulty altimeter caused the aircraft to throttle the engines back to idle and that the crew failed to react quickly enough resulting in a stall and crash. Boeing advised operators of all 737 aircraft to carefully monitor primary flight instruments and not to engage autopilot/throttle systems during approach and landing in event of a radio altimeter malfunction.
The Captain's radio altimeter had been troublesome for some time in this airplane, with repeated maintenance deferrals. By 2,000 feet on this approach, it was indicating a valid signal, but with zero feet radio altitude. The crew had little choice but to ignore it. They proceeded to fly a coupled approach, and with autothrottles engaged. Sensing the erroneous zero feet radio altitude, the autothrottles went to Retard mode, as if they had already landed. Since the plane was high on the approach when the pilot engaged Autothrottle mode, the crew expected the throttles to go to flight idle, the same throttle position as Retard. However, as the autopilot traded airspeed for altitude with only idle power from the engines, the plane nearly stalled before the pilot pushed the throttles forward to recover.
In the ensuing confusion, the autothrottles once again went to Retard, unnoticed. They stalled and crashed short of the runway.
The autothrottle logic used the Captain's radio altimeter input as long as it indicated Valid. If it flagged Invalid, then the autothrottle computer would use the First Officer's radio altitude. Boeing's simplistic faith in the reliability of the radio altimeter to never display erroneous altitude was misplaced. In the real world of airline operations, corrosion between the radio altimeter antennas and the aircraft skin, or a faulty antenna cable can cause the zero feet indication while at altitude. If Boeing had just inserted one more logic equation to compare the two radio altimeter inputs in the autothrottle computer, this would surely have been avoided.
Does the 777 Triplex Autoland system autothrottle computer have this same simplistic logic? No, but I bring it up as there is more than one way to trap an unwary pilot.
I could give other examples of this behavior, at first world airlines, but you get the idea.
The flight guidance system of the 777 is built by Honeywell in Phoenix, Arizona by Americans. Used properly the pilot could have simply watched the aircraft "autoland" and then he could have watched the "autobrake" system bring the aircraft down to safe taxi speeds.
The most likely way this accident could have happened is by the pilot selecting parameters manually, or perhaps disengaging the autopilot and hand flying the aircraft.
I had heard the ILS in that runway was down. Any truth to that rumor?
Royce, the primary displays in the 777 are made by Honeywell, and the fly-by-wire, I believe. The triplex autoland flight control computers are made by Collins in Cedar Rapids.
Yes, Rob, the Glideslope transmitter was off the air due to possible beam distortions caused by construction in the area. It's a good chance the Asian pilots overlooked GS OTS in their pre-flight and listening to ATIS, Airport Terminal Information Service. There would have been confusion if they were expecting GS guidance and didn't have it. Still, flying the plane is #1 job.
Japan and Korea, where the cockpit order of command is still:
3. Whoever else
If you are justifying the removal of carry on baggage as being from shock, I do not buy it. There are enough people here that think it is OK to take carry on off during an emergency egress that it would seem that the flying (passenger) public needs to be educated, and a heavy fine or jail time for the fellow with the roller bag would be a good way to make an example.
I doubt the pilots would have used an ILS approach in day VFR conditions with an available GPS approach. The fact that the ILS had been out of service for weeks is not unusual. It's a non factor.
I assumed that it would be used all the time Royce. I learned something new today.
Thanks to RD for starting this thread! Im shure it sounds i haven't but i have learned much! Just to be safe i'll take the T! Bud.
Tim Wrenn - I understand how you feel; flying makes me bit nervous too, however, I honestly believe that if we compared statistics between auto accident deaths and air travel deaths, we'd both feel better about the whole thing.
Actually, maybe dwelling too much on such comparing of such statistics might make us consider cutting down on driving on the highways as much as possible!
This will probably sound pretty harsh & cold, but another "statistic" would probably be in favor of flying rather than driving; that being that many, many people are maimed and otherwise horribly injured for life from auto accidents, while in most airplane crashes, you're just plain GONE!
I just figure I'll keep driving and flying and leave it all up to our Creator, as I believe there is a "master plan" whether anybody believes it or not,......harold
I have a friend who is the sole survivor of a military airplane crash. He was the photographer, taking pictures out of the side of the airplane, so fell out of the plane as it went down and survived (parachute). He will not fly anywhere! (I know, statistics show he's safer up there than driving or taking the train, but that's just the way he is!)
My last flight, the plane fell out of the sky for what seemed like minutes, with folks in the rear injured (I was over the wing, watching yellow "light" coming from the engine nacelle, so we didn't get bounced around too much as we always wear our seat belts. However, the person behind me received the water out of my drinking glass--it rose out of the glass and over my head!). When I asked the pilot as we got off, out of curiosity, "how far did we fall?" he said, "we went up 50 feet" Riiiightttt. . . Foolish me, he would not be permitted to release that information! We haven't been up since, but that's because we haven't had anywhere to go--although I will admit, I'm a bit more apprehensive than before! I know folks were injured because four ambulances met us at the terminal, with gurneys waiting in the "tunnel."
Looking back, it was interesting, as it seemed all the rest of the passengers were screaming, but Linda & I didn't, however there is a package tray with my hand prints in it! (I was holding onto it and my glass when this happened) Very movie-like and I remember thinking, "so this is it? there's just land beneath us, no chance of a water landing--please pull up--are those flames or just a flashing light?"
Am I always this logical in an emergency? I dunno, that's the only time I remember being in one! After we leveled out, I could hear the engines out of sync (rummm, rummm) and asked, "Did they sound like this before?" But we kept on flying to Sacramento, so I figured the plane must be OK. This was over Kansas, and when we landed there were reports of Tornadoes in Kansas, I figure we flew over the top of one--we never had an explanation, just, "That wasn't on the radar, please keep your setbelts fastened, it's likely to be bumpy for a while."
Well, riding in a model T is bumpy too--but that's different!!! (required T content).
Well I don't know what the percentage stats are for flying or driving but:
I've been in 1 plane crash, 4 car crashes, and 1 motorcycle crash; my Dad was in 2 plane crashes, 3 car crashes and one truck crash, my older brother was in 3 plane crashes, and 2 car crashes and we all survived. Someone mentioned shock when you in an air crash...that's an understatement!
Dennis, Are you sure your last name isn't Dangerfield?
We should always give the benefit of doubt for others. Suppose the guy with the suit case was in the last intact row and after climbing down the ripped up remains of the plane stumbled over, you guessed it, his own bag. Please hold the criticism for when you know the whole story and the guy has a chance to answer for himself.
Dale, Amen. Too many times people are condemned by biased, ill-informed, or guess work sources.
"Some can be seen carrying luggage and other carry-on items, spurring widespread criticism. (Reuters/Eugene Anthony Rah) #"
That statement was from the press, not me. When police arrived later, however, they climbed aboard and pulled people out, so this slacker was not the last guy out, by far. He was just emblematic of people so caught up in texting they don't relate to the real world.
Utube simulation of the approach and arrival.
Or the guy could have been next to an exit and the luggage was in his way and he threw it out?
Maybe it had a few thousand dollars in it.
It may have made it easier for others to exit after he took it out. Who knows?
I doubt it though.
How did the police climb aboard when the exits are blocked by the slides. Just wondering.
Oops, here's the link:
When I've ridden in the exit row on some airlines, the flight attendant pre-flight briefing included asking if I would be willing to help others exit the plane.
Sounds like you family is jinked. Please let me know where your bunch is so I can be somewhere else. LOL
I've only flown 172's and J-3's, but what I was always taught was the stick is your speed control. The throttle is your altitude control. Is this not the case with big planes too? Auto throttle or not, sounds like he was holding back on the yoke too much, or not trimmed properly for the descent. But then again, I don't hold an ATP.
The FAA and Boeing believe jet transports are different, Hal. The primary autothrottle mode is Speed Hold. I'm most familiar with McDouglas and Boeings, and pretty successfully avoided getting too familiar with the Scarebus.
Like I detailed above, for a hand flown approach the pilot typically engages A/T for 1.3 Vsi (1.3 times stall), and applies pitch and roll to arrive at the touchdown zone, manually retarding the throttles at the right height for the airplane's type and configuration.
Maybe we should all opt to drive everywhere...preferably in a Model T, lol.
The latest statistic on death by flying versus driving:
You are 8 times more likely to die in an auto accident as opposed to dying in a plane crash.
I've done my share of flying. Been all over this planet of ours on a plane but I never, in all those flights, got over the take-off and landing jitters.