After a protracted build my mostly 1923 Runabout is taking its first short shakedown trips. One was to the recent Orange County Model T Club Swap in near 100° heat. The car went better than I did, there and back without issues, not even acting hot. I have a motometer but hadn't bothered to fit it. I was fit only for a tall glass of iced tea!
After the trip I did the things that I have been doing after each run of the new motor - check the tightness of the head and other bolts, snug the bands where indicated and clean the transmission screen. The screen had always been nice & clean on previous checks but this time was covered with a dark gray sludge. Both the magnet & the screen itself were well covered. The sludge wiped away easily and did not stick to the magnet particularly leading me to conclude it was not magnetic. The sludge is soft and does not look or feel like metal. If it is it must be very finely ground. I was surprised at the discovery and did not shoot any pictures until after the fact when I noticed that the rag the screen had just been sitting on had a good sample of the material. Here is a pic of the sludge on that rag:
I have been contemplating this sludge over the past week. The car seems to run pretty well and there are no loud knocks or screeches from inside. The only thing I have noticed is a smoke coming out of the tappet cover hole where the throttle rod passes through. I can only see this running the motor on the ramp. I had not thought too much about this thinking that the motor has only 4 or 5 hours on it and the rings may not be seated. There is a stink while driving sometimes that may be related.
I'll check the screen again Saturday A.M. before I try the longest trip so far over to the Long Beach Model T Swap in Los Alamitos. If it is heavily covered again after last week's trip I may just leave the car until I can determine what is up with the sludge.
Any ideas? Is this normal with a new T motor? Any idea what is causing this motor with new Castrol GTX 5w/30 to produce sludge?
Vintage Paul, looking forward to a longer jaunt Saturday . . .
Do you have the tar baby Scandinavian transmission bands ?
It's kinda normal to see smoke from the throttle rod hole on later Model T engines.
I wonder, are you using non detergent oil?
The bands are new wood bands, adjusted loose to start and only tightened now. The oil is GTX, not non-detergent.
The trans looks clean. Here is a pic of it from the last time before finding the sludge along with a pic of the screen as I expected to see it this time:
I'll shoot some more pics when I look inside in the morning.
It depends on how it was rebuilt. If it was by the "Ford method", I would say that's normal wear in. If it was by modern methods, you have a problem.
Try to dissolve the sludge off the rag into some acetone or lacquer thinner then swirl a clean magnet in the liquid. This will give a better idea of the content.
Ditto what Royce says. That's how the valve guides and lifter tops get oil--By oil vapor.
In every engine I've built, I found lots of hiding holes for old grunge. Not always readily visible to the eye. Can't simply steam clean the block at the local car wash.
Check in the corners in the valve guide area, on top the main bosses, up around both the rear main boss. Use a cotton swab to check.
Just my 2 cents.
It might just be from exhaust seeping through the rings. They take a thousand or so miles to seat. It could also be charred wood from the wood bands. Another possible cause would be little pieces of old cork gaskets, in fact that's what it looks like in the picture. How does car roll in neutral? If the engine turns, your bands or clutch are too tight. If you turn the engine over with the crank while in neutral, the car should not creep forward. If it does, the bands or clutch are too tight.
If the above tests prove OK, drive some more and check for more sludge. After about 500 miles change the oil. It might also be good at time of first oil change to clean out the dips in the engine inspection plate.
A old coil ring is a nasty hard to clean place so?? Bud.
Could be just normal wear from rings going up and down in cylinders. Each piston has 3 rings and each ring has at least 2 sharp edges. The cylinders wall are not that hard where as the rings are. If the bores were left with a swirled pattern, the metal has to go somewhere that is polished off. If you add a magnet to the oil screen I think it is normal to see that sludge covering it.
I think it's Aluminum off the pistons. What did you fit piston clearance to, and did you align your rods?
Some lubricants used during the trans assembly may not mix or break down in the oil completely and that could be all it is. i would just keep an eye on it, and as long as it doesn't feel gritty you'll be ok.
It's pretty normal to see stuff as described by everyone that posted. bits of cork silicone small particles of aluminum etc, untill everythings all settled in.
And the small amount of smoke breathing out is also normal.
Castrol GTX NON-DETERGENT?????
Are you sure it's non-detergent?
Castrol is one of the best sludge removers oils. Like others have posted, it is probably sludge from before the engine was rebuilt.
Aaron, better clean your glasses.
"The oil is GTX, not non-detergent"
I agree with Keith, Normal, one of my T's has a screen and is a grey paste like sludge and every thing else is spotless, just the screen doing it's job.
Castrol has a very informative wed site, the GTX info starts with,
'NO ENGINE IS IMMUNE TO SLUDGE'
and Castrol GTX offers 25% better sludge protection.
of course, opinions may vary!!
Ok, I cleaned my glasses. NOT non-detergent.
The gray junk in the sludge is said to be lead from leaded gas that was used back in the days before unleaded.
I still find some in old engines once in a while.
T engines are like any internal combustion engine. They have sludge in them from time to time.
The Gray should be out of your bearings, as when pistons score, the Aluminum goes through bearings, and that makes a Gray paste.
I have some pictures that a Builder sent me a while back from out west, of a Model T he got from a customer that had less then a hundred miles on it done by a well known builder.
Sludge in a new engine is not normal, especially with a few miles. That is oil and metal mixed together.
That's a bad one Herm, was the fault found?
Pistons to tight.
But the rest of the motor was also poorly.
Pistons to tight.
But the rest of the motor was also poorly.
Funny.....as I recall, you claimed it was Time Saver back then.
That was in there also!!
The pictures I showed was on disassembling, not after clean up and measuring clearances.
So Mr. Davis, if you would be a little more observing, you can see the condition of the cylinders, being scored and the pistons would match. I will look but I don't think the old boy sent any pictures of the pistons later on.
That was all I needed to see.
I will post other pictures that had things wrong.
Rod bolts wrong. May not be in
Bushing in backwards.
Ball cap bored off center.
Triple gear pin scratched up from your time saver, also the picture of the crank in the last post.
I'd like to see you scratch a triple gear pin with Timesaver.
You just did!
No way did Timesaver do that. Try it yourself before making assumptions.
Have it your way!
Herm, do you seriously believe that Timesaver would score a triple gear pin like that?
Just a bit more back story: The new (to me) block was babbited by a reputable shop in the San Diego area who do most of the Model Ts in SoCal. Larry Blair at the Tin Shed fitted the new (to me) crank and also fitted the pistons and rings. I do not know the details. I put on new dippers and Chevy con rod nuts. The motor was so tight that I could only turn it by putting on the flywheel and turning that with a flywheel wrench. I was so concerned about this that I bundled the motor up and took it back to Larry for a look see. He said the tightness was OK, Ford mentioned that the motor should be free enough to turn with a two foot bar. I brought it back home and went ahead with the rest of the assembly.
I foolishly left out the magneto. I could not conceive that the wonderful E-Timer would ever be out of production. I have one now and it runs the car very well but should it ever go south it will be back to 6v. I'll write more on this issue in a separate post.
Since I found the sludge in the screen last week I had another drive of perhaps an hour's duration. This is a trip of similer duration to the one that produced the sludgy screen and I feared that I would find the same or worse when I pulled it off this past Saturday. For a start I dumped the oil and had a look to see what was in it. The oil was dark but contained no big bits. There was very little "hair" on the magnetic drain plug. Stirring the oil with a white plastic paddle produced some sediment and a very fine gold colored material that rapidly settled out.
The screen had some sludge but nothing like it had the previous weekend. Why the difference? Here are some pics:
The trans still looks clear. Here it is:
Fresh oil was measured out and I decided to set out for the Long Beach Model T Swap in Los Alamitos, the longest drive I have ever attempted. I was somewhat worried about the sludge situation but decided to press on regardless and just enjoy the ride. I have been working on this car steadily for a year and a half and really wanted to give it a whirl and just enjoy it.
The trip down to the swap was somewhat nerve wracking as I imagined all sorts of evil being done under the hood. Nothing happened. No noises got worse, no knocks developed, the motor puttered steadily and before I knew it I was there, safe & sound!
It was like Old Home week at the swap as everywhere I turned I met old friends and new friends who met me on this wonderful forum. Several listened to my story about the sludge and one pal gave the car a walk around and drove it to see how it goes. The consensus was that the is probably nothing to worry about. My pal John who drove the car had a few squawks to work on but nothing major.
I set off for home in a lighter spirit and really enjoyed just puttering along actually driving a Model T rather than just riding in one. Folks honked and waved as I went by, even a street walker who must have been having a tough time of it in the mid afternoon heat gave me a wave and a smile. The car just seemed to run better and better as it went on. Almost certainly the car really ran the same as before but I started to relax and enjoy it more.
I'll check the screen again before the next run Saturday for the Orange County Club's meet in Brea. After that run I'll dump the oil again and see what it looks like.
Vintage Paul, still smiling . . .
Is it just me or do those 3 transmission drums look chewed up?
Paul i'm glad you were able to enjoy your T. as far as the oil and screen i don't see anything unusual certainly doesn't look like sludge to me, as i said earlier the first picture of your trans screen shows what looks like random debris from the initial assembly, bits of trans gel and silicone,grease, cork etc. and the residue left on the rag could just be normal wear from the break in and or possibly zinc additive in the oil
That sludge is believe it or not sanding dust. Wood bands will do just that on less than perfect drums. I made a set of bands for a buddy and they did the same thing. His drums were not as bad on the surface as yours.
I know the anti-kevlar crowd will say no way but I have seen it first hand. On an engine that hasn't been overhauled and the only change was wood bands. We pulled his engine down and put it back together with better drums and new wood bands and problem solved.
I suspect that you don't have anything to worry about, but after looking at the previous post about the transmission drums, the drums look OK, but I notice there is no notch on the washer on the brake band. See the notch on the reverse washer? The one on the brake should have a notch like that. Otherwise the nut will back off and you will lose your brakes and the nut and washer will be in the bottom of the transmission which could cause damage. You should not drive the car until this issue is corrected.
Am on the other side of the fence on both!
Good drums look like this
The washer upset is opposite the shaft keyway so cannot be seen in the picture as it is down.
Everything you've said and shown looks normal to me. The initial bit of goo was from the rings and the tight bearings seating in. They're now probably seated so, no more "sludge".
Drive it and enjoy it. If something really were wrong, the car will let you know it before long.
Thanks guys for the opinions. The motor was certainly very tight and has loosened some over the five or seven hours it has now run. It can now be pulled through by the hand crank with the plugs in. There was no way this could be done at the start.
The drums look bad but were signed off on by both Larry Blair & Jim Guinn who makes the wooden bands. They do have "oil retention pits" but are otherwise smooth. They needed adjustment very soon after installation but have remained stable recently.
There is a lock on the nut but it is on the other side where it can't be seen. I'm not sure why this is upside down, possibly I just rotated it out of alinement after getting the hogshead machined for seals.
I'll dump the oil again after the next drive to see what it looks like.
Herm, do you seriously believe that Timesaver would score a triple gear pin like that?"END QUOTE"
So Chris, your saying that after you use time saver on your mains, the shaft and bearings look like this with that abrasive!
I'm not saying that.
I am, however, asking if you believe the scoring on this triple gear pin photo you posted earlier could/would be caused by Timesaver....
Gee, are those bearings or mirrors?
I am, however, asking if you believe the scoring on this triple gear pin photo you posted earlier could/would be caused by Timesaver.... "END QUOTE"
What I can say is the machine shop said there were Blobs of time saver stuck in and around the engine.
He had tried it once and he could never find a use for it, as he has machines for what the abrasive is supposed to do, so he knew what it looks like.
I think as the shop did, that is what started it.
Keep in mind, it was left in the engine.
It set in motion the Brass, Aluminum, and steel particles that ate everything, and spared nothing.
OK, got it. The guy who used Timesaver — once — told the guy who's never tried the stuff, that it ruined this engine.
Are there any actual Timesaver users on the forum who found it created a toxic soup of steel, brass and aluminum that destroyed their engine?
Right on Paul, it was good seeing you out in your T :-)
Well son, I have taken more Model T engines down for rebuild then you will ever do, and I have never ever seen any stuff in an engine like that, even with thousandths of miles on, not alone less then 100. Even engines that haven't been opened up for 75 years only have grease, oil, or rust, and none of the bearings look like that.
I have never had any of that stuff in my hands either, but I have already seen what it has done, and looks like in pictures on the forum here.
And No, you didn't get it, If you have to use something more then once to know that there are other ways with better results, without having a zoom moment. If someone shot there tire with a Gun, would I have to shoot my own tire to see how it worked for me.
I am not telling not to use it, as if that is all the type of work your capable of, go for it.
I don't need to use stuff like that to know you are not going to get a crank in perfect alignment when the main with the most effort to turn, may loosen up before the other two that are the worst out of alignment.
Time saver is no different then the out dated method of burning a crank in, in the 1920's, it will not align a crank, and keep the same clearance equal on 4 sides of the journal, unless you would luck out once in a while, but we don't build our engines on luck.
When you have a crank pushing to the side of the bearing, what are you going to do the the gap on the other side.
If you scrape crank bearings, you are on a mission with a plan. You have to watch for which bearing you loosen first, or you could loose the whole crank alignment, ending up with to tight of gears, on an old set of bearings.
In my experience, the amount of Timesaver required to fit four rods and three mains is a couple teaspoons at most... and it gets cleaned away after use.
Whatever all that sludge is, its not Timesaver.
Again — are there any actual Timesaver users on the forum who found it created a toxic soup of steel, brass and aluminum that destroyed their engine?
I didn't say that, I seen the pictures of the out come of its use. Meaning pictures of the main bearing, and the shaft bearings!
We don't put out work like that!
Again — are there any actual Timesaver users on the forum who found it created a toxic soup of steel, brass and aluminum that destroyed their engine? "END QUOTE"
I don't know! Did they leave what they used in there engine? If they didn't, gee maybe that's why you have never seen anything like that before
Hmmmm....... So you've never even seen the stuff but you would tell the world it is what caused those very gouges in that triple gear pin? And that based on the opinion of a third party. Pretty obvious to me, you ain't got a clue about the stuff.
Getting back on track.....
Glad you're seeing less "stuff" in the screen. New rebuilds need time to seat-in, which means there will be something in the oil. You're doing ok.
Still laughing at the professional "againsters". Kohnke knows his profession well and has high standards. Period.
Againsters? Not sure if you are referring to me, but if so, I'd like to know what you think I'm against. Herm is the one who is against a product he has no knowledge of. Sound FAMILIAR, Bob?
As far as Paul's problem, I agree with you that the amount of stuff in there will become less and less as it breaks in.
That particular pin has been in place a long time. There is a ridge worn into it next to the persons fingers. That didn't wear that way in any immediate fashion (or low mileage) and time saver didn't do it either. Dirty oil will cause scratches.
I'm sure Herm KNOWS of what he speaks, probably pushing for Forum discussion which is effective.
You posted : " Herm is the one who is against a product he has no knowledge of. Sound FAMILIAR, Bob? "
Your assumption on Herm's experience.
OT : As far as being against a product someone has no knowledge of reminds me of your buddy Royce's rejection to be a E-Timer beta tester, free of charge, ..... and his noted negativity of the E-Timer of which he had never experienced.
SOUND FAMILIAR ???
Gee Bob. You're really on top of things. I would never have made that connection.
I have no doubt Herm knows his stuff about engine building. What Herm has no knowledge of is Time Saver and he should refrain from making statements about it galling that triple gear pin when it is obvious to people who have used it, that is NOT the case.
Thanks for your accurate observation.
You know, with many years in the trade, I'd never heard of this stuff beyond it's being mentioned here on the Forum. Not much call for it with modern's I guess. Do you dump it in and run the engine or is it a kind of lapping compound where you'd hand crank until free then (hopefully) clean it off?
Whatever that sludge shown on the cloth might be is speculation, without actually seeing it or testing it or checking other parts of the engine.
Paul says it is not magnetic, so it could be either aluminum or babbit, or it could be carbon deposits not completely cleaned out before the engine was assembled.
If it is aluminum, the pistons could either be too tight, or the rods out of alignment. If the pistons are too tight, it will seize up when the engine overheats. That would be the worst case.
If it is rods out of alignment, it could cause more rapid wear on the pistons and cylinders. It could also cause wear on the crankshaft bearings.
Since it seems to have abated, it doesn't appear to be a critical problem. You could tear things apart to try to find the source, or just drive as it is checking from time to time to see if it recurs.
I would suggest that you notify the people who did your work and ask them what they would do, whether to leave it alone, or if they want to tear it down. Did they give you any warantee on their work?
Other than that, you could just continue to drive it and see what happens.
It is very much like a lapping compound (And Brill Cream). A little dab'll do ya.
I take it then Hal that it's supposed to be removed/cleaned off when done? I'm also assuming, from past posts, that it wasn't cleaned out?
One of the folks I spoke with at the Swap was Larry Blair who listened to my story and also listened to the motor as it eased along toward him. While I assembled most of the motor and trans, Larry did the machine work & babbit or arranged for it to be done by specialists he trusts. Larry said it sounded fine and to just keep driving it.
I plan to do that until something indicates otherwise. I will drop the oil more often in the very near future both to flush out the contaminates and to get a good look see at what is going on. Oil is cheap compared to engine damage.
I'll update this thread after the next drive/screen check/oil change this coming weekend.
Tom, I was very happy to see you at the Swap and renew our acquaintance. Tom & I had several parallel interests including vintage motorbikes & vintage Chevy trucks. He drove a rare 1947 COE to the meet, the first time I had laid peepers on it.
Charlie, Herm (and others) — suggest you visit the manufacturer's website for more information: http://www.ws2coating.com/timesaverlappingcompounds.aspx and also the page specific to the 'yellow" compound used for soft-metal bearings such as our babbitt: http://www.ws2coating.com/yellow-label-for-soft-metals-babbitt-brass-bronze-and-aluminum.aspx
Of particular note are the phrases "Timesaver Lapping Compounds are formulated to first act as an abrasive, then diminish to a polish and finally to inert material." and "The lapping compound has a cutting action that is rapid at first and gradually diminishes as the abrasive particles disintegrate into inoperative material."
Charlie, yes it is intended to be removed/cleaned off when done. Having said this, I consider it unlikely that some residue would cause any problems, in that the yellow compound is not formulated to cut into ferrous metals.
As stated above, in my experience only a couple teaspoons of compound, mixed with oil, is needed to lap in the four rods and three mains. The quantities of sludge in the photos above is way more than this and, if it is indeed Timesaver, indicates far too much was used, incorrectly, and not cleaned out after. To blame this on the product itself is akin to blaming the use of machine tools on an engine block because the operator never bothered to clean out the chips which subsequently damaged the engine.
In my experience with three T engines, the yellow Timesaver produces a consistent 0.0015-0.0018 bearing clearance — never greater. I expect this is because the particles themselves are probably half that diameter to begin with and only get smaller in use.
That makes a heck of a lot more sense Chris. And it's not what some posts from years back has shown. I believe the stuff does break down to an extent but too much + not removing it would turn up as contamination or sludge. You'd have to be nuts to over use this stuff AND leave it in the engine.
That particular pin has been in place a long time. There is a ridge worn into it next to the persons fingers. That didn't wear that way in any immediate fashion (or low mileage) and time saver didn't do it either. Dirty oil will cause scratches."END QUOTE"
Gary, if you knew anything about pins, you would know that what you call a worn ridge is the step that is larger then the bearing surface that presses into the flywheel.
The motor did have less then a 100 miles on a new rebuild!
Was waiting for Gary's response on my post " Thanks for your accurate observation."
Egg on my face, also forgot about the step diameter.
Hmmmm....... So you've never even seen the stuff but you would tell the world it is what caused those very gouges in that triple gear pin? And that based on the opinion of a third party. Pretty obvious to me, you ain't got a clue about the stuff."END QUOTE"
Davis, if Bamford told me you chopped a distinct part of your anatomy off, weather a small piece, or a large chunk, which ever pertains, and it was told it hurt like H&^%, I would gladly take a third party's word!!!
Can you say for a fact that the pin was newly installed during the rebuild, less than 100 miles ago? Since you didn't do the rebuild, I'm wondering how you "know" that the pin came to be like that in 100 miles, versus 100 years. You obviously have little respect for whoever rebuilt the engine so I'm wondering why you would give him credit for installing new triple pins.
I will agree, that engine is a mess. Hard to imagine that the tiny amount of Time Saver required to fit the bearings could do such universal damage. A teaspoon full would be enough to do all 7 bearings. How do you suppose such a small amount, applied only the bearings, would destroy every moving part of the engine & transmission and still leave enough of itself behind to appear in, "Blobs of time saver stuck in and around the engine"? Again, since neither you nor your buddy rebuilt that motor, neither one of you can say, without a doubt, that Time Saver was used.
You're reaching, Herm. Or should I say Kohnke? You have no experience with the stuff. You didn't even know what it looked like until Chris posted the picture of it. It will not cut steel, so admit you were wrong, give it a rest, and get your mind off of distinct parts of my anatomy.
I put a phone call in to find out Jerry
IMHO, almost looks like someone put anti-seize thread compound in the engine oil. Just a opinion looking at the pictures.
...or went heavy on the Bon-Ami ?
I have no dog in this fight, I have just been watching a certain someone make an ass of himself, again. I do think that Bob J. may be on to something though. I've heard of using Bon Ami to "seat" the rings, I guess some of the old tractor guys use it, or so I've been told. Sounds like another one of those "old wives tales" to me though. I wonder if that was checked out. Just a thought. Dave
Used bon ami years ago to polish journals on friction bearing rail cars, If the journal wasn't pitted and only light tracing then we would jack the truck side, remove the adapter plate and bearing then sprinkle on the journal and oil pad. Worked like time saver in that being an organic compound it would diminish and polish only. I have used time saver lots and have never had trouble. I do try to and remove the excess but don't worry if I don't get it all as it will cause no damage and will flush out at the first oil change. I don't care what others opinion is on this subject, I do quality work and have no problems on my or others projects. Have made a living as a mechanic 45 years. Everyone is free to do what they choose, KB
You have no experience with the stuff. You didn't even know what it looked like until Chris posted the picture of it. "END QUOTE"
I don't need experience with crap that has nothing to do with engine rebuilding.
If the pins were new, or never replaced, the pins never look like that on a normal tear down, so what difference does that make.
Forget about the pin only, look at the brass bushings in the transmission, the ground up babbitt in the bearings, all the sludge in the pan, and inspection cover.
All that stuff is foreign to that engine, and there in a whole lot more then two teaspoons.
So if it isn't Timewacker, what do you think made a paste like that.
OK, now for DEDUCTION
1. The brass bushings in the transmission are gouged up------Brass from the bushings in the Transmission that go through the babbitt bearings will embedded in the babbitt, and while it does the bearings no good, brass in the bearings will cause no sludge, How do I know this grasshopper, 47 years experience!
2. Aluminum off the pistons will do the same thing as Brass, but not as bad, and it will also NOT make the sludge, and many bearings are made of Aluminum. How I know this Grasshopper, how is it you do not?
3. Iron filings from say the rings will go through the bearings and not be noticed, as it happens with all Model T's. How do I know this, refer to point No. 1.
To have that much timersaver in the engine, I think what they did was put it on all the bearings and thought it would brake in the engine, and the dissolve away in the engine oil.
So, the pistons to tight, is off the table now??
With the large amount of paste in the pictures I posted, and knowing that it had time stuff, splattered around the inside, and knowing that the engine builder was well known to use the time stuff, no,the pistons are not off the table but once a bearing starts to grind up, any metal foreign to the babbitt, will add to its demise.
Also Paul has not said if any time crap has been used in his engine?
True, a chain reaction! well Paul, back to you!
I gotta say you fellows kinda lost me here. If "timesaver" (whatever that may be) was used I was not told of it. I certainly didn't use any myself. I assembled the bits with fresh motor oil.
Paul, in light of your information, you should not worry about your engine. Your description of your ride should be giving you more confidence.
By Layden Butler on Monday, July 15, 2013 - 02:57 pm:
Is it just me or do those 3 transmission drums look chewed up?
Layden's sharp eye balls ( Like An Eaglet) pointed out the O.D. of the drums condition looks chewed up.
I didn't look that close at that picture the first time, as it looked like they had been turned on a lathe, and had harmonic marks, and as Paul said don't hurt anything, just holds oil.
Hard to tell all from a picture, but it looks like Aluminum stuck to the drums, and if the drums were pitted, maybe there is Aluminum in the pits, and, or maybe nothing at all, but as Layden said, something don't look right.
Paul, you may want to take a pocket knife and scrape a little on the drum and see if anything comes loose?
I do know what a pin looks like. I couldn't see from that photo that it was the manufactured step as it appears to diminish just like one that has been run 80 years leaves a step on one side. For me to not be able to tell that from that photo is good cause for your insult, "if you knew anything......"
This I do know, the last engine I rebuilt now has 180 tough hours of flight training on it. It has been operated day/night and summer winter. I have full confidence in it as well as my ability.
I have never doubted your ability when it comes to mechanical aptitude. I do question your ability to function with normal people and communicate in a civil non insulting manner.
Gary, if you knew anything about pins, you would know that what you call a worn ridge is the step that is larger then the bearing surface that presses into the flywheel."END QUOTE"
if you knew anything about pins "END QUOTE"
Gary, I am sorry if you were insulted. I didn't say anything. I said anything about Pins.
I did not mean it as an insult, that is the way I talk.
It's Not Timesaver.. you would have to dump a 15 lb box of the stuff in there to do that and it still would probably not hurt much..
My experience is I have never seen that much stuff in a newly rebuilt engine. Something certainly was not done well enough. Attention to detail somewhere??
Glad your driving the car finally, Paul
There are so many pictures hear I got lose as to which ones are Paul's and which ones have been added as examples of things gone wrong.
When I finally looked at only Paul's a few things came to mind.
1. July 12 8:26 PM - Paul got some stuff on his shirt...I'll bet his wife got mad!
2. July 12 9:01 PM - Things were really clean before he found the sludge. Strange markings on the drums - I would expect there to be rub marks or scratches around the outside.
3. July 15 2:38 PM That stuff on the magnet can't be aluminum because it is magnetic -- The insides of that transmission certainly look clean! Still see the strange drum surface and look at the ends of the wood bands - Is that the grey stuff?
4. July 15 5:07 PM Paul is going to change the oil
5. July 15 6:58 PM Poor Paul is now trying to look at himself in the mirror!
6. July 16 11:54 AM Paul talks with someone and he decides to have fun driving his T. "Life as it should be"
7. July 16 6:21 PM Paul announces that he is confused about saving time and wonders why the thread went all wobbly wook
Paul -- Have fun driving your T
PS - all this because Paul got his shirt dirty!
It's interesting how this thread got changed from what Paul first posted to things which Herm posted! Paul is in California and had his work done by locals, while Herm is in Iowa! These were not even the same engines! Ha! Ha!
Here are a coupla pics of the drums after the trans was assembled. It was at this stage that Jim Guinn graciously came over to my shop and inspected the drums personally. Larry Blair had already signed off on them but I was still just a bit uncertain.
The surface looks like hell to my eye but feels pretty smooth to the touch. I have not seen much sawdust in the oil. If the drums were really bad there should have been, especially after suffering through my learning curve in T driving.
Looks fine to me.
Paul,Did you leave the top cover off the trans overnight?? That mess looks like either a Coon or Woodchuck took a dump in it?Good luck! Bud.
When drums wear, like every thing else they never wear flat and true.
The surface looks like a conveyer belt, in and out, up or down, how ever you look at it.
They always have low and High spots in them. We always cut the drums after the bushings are reamed and centered with the Wilson reamers.
If you don't cut the drums, you don't have any of the three surfaces 100% true for a band to utilize. From this you can get chatter, or a tightening and loosing effect.
Some of the time, when the center is right, the out side of the drum is off center with the hub, and if it was left to run like that, the drum is moving the band back and fourth, as one side is out further then the other, and the band is trying to tighten up on a wobble wheel.
I am building a Transmission right now, and will be taking a lot of pictures for show and tell.
The most you ever take off is about .020 thousandths, or less, depending.
If you have any normal rivet grooves left, leave them, unless they are to deep and would cause problems, find another Drum.
I think I saw a surface like that on poor quality tool steel that was turned with a dull bit.
I would not be concerned about it. It might wear out the wood bands quickly if you slip them too much but it will smooth out as they polish the surface. I don't think it will look like a mirror, but it will get smoother.
After all -- Wood with a little pumice - like time saver - can be used to polish surfaces
The pits in the drums can hold oil, which is good for the bands.
no one has mentioned the possibility of grease from the u-joint getting into the rear of the engine. I once used moly-? type grease and found the same "residue' stuck to the magnet and screen. just a thought....Paul
Paul, that would be impossible for grease to go through a .003 thousandths gap between the tail shaft, and the ball cap babbitt.
Yes Paul, grease is a real possibility. I used grease to lube the cam & lifters and on each of the three installations of the generator. It was also used on the trans door gaskets.
One of my pals who has helped with this T project came down Tuesday evening and looked at and felt the sludge & oil. He thought it most likely was grease. Dave from Chaffin called on the phone yesterday and said it looked like grease to him after viewing the photos.
Being that the sludge never felt gritty I have to think there is a good chance that the gook is grease mixed with combustion byproducts and general new motor waste. If so it ought to be as clean as a whistle when next inspected . . .
Couldn't grease from the U-joint invade the crankcase if the fourth main babbit was excessively worn? I sent my tailshaft and ball cap to George King III (www.enginerestoration.com) to be rebabbited and machined fit and like Kohnke said, there is no way grease can invade my crankcase, but before I sent it to George, it was very sloppy. Jim Patrick
Grease will not hurt your engine in the least. (unless maybe a big gob of it blocked your oil tube funnel) The amount that would leak though a 4th main would be very small as would the amount used as assembly lube, assuming it was used at all.
Paul, once again, your engine is fine!
Jerry, Jim, I agree.
Also, when the engine is running, crankcase pressure will push engine oil out, rather then suck in, as the engine oil going down the drive shaft tube.
If I over grease the U-Joint, which I shoot for the first time, when the grease comes out around the drive shaft bell, or the flange with out the gasket, I stop.
No, Grease in its self will not hurt an engine, it is what is in gray grease that may.
Grease is mainly oil with a clay thickener.
At least that's what Boeing wrote a few years back, as they were searching for a single grease for the whole airplane.
What info do you have on it, Gary?
Instead of guessing , put some under a microscope and see what it looks like or collect a bunch and put it on a tin sheet and put a fire under it and see what you end up with.
Grease is as you say oil with thickener. What got Boeing and all industry on fire about grease was an accident they attribute to intermixing of brands. One manufacture used clay as a thickener and the other used lithium I believe. Both product met the same Mil-spec and most folks didn't recognize that as a performance spec. Either would perform equally as well when used alone.
Since that time, the new spec for most grease is BMS-33. This new grease has a wider temp range and you don't need to flush the joint when switching to the new grease. The new BMS-33 affords better corrosion protection as well. I know Mobile 33 meets this new spec but have been away from it too long to tell which offering by Shell meets it.
I have been pushing for folks to pick one grease for their T and stick with it. Others feel this is crying wolf and have stated they will continue to buy "grease of the week" at their local auto parts guy.
My dad taught me on the farm, "oil and grease are cheap, parts and machinery are expensive". It matters not whether a guy forgets to grease something or if incomparable grease plugged passages and starved the part from lubrication. The results will be the same.
The engine of the original poster seems ok but that other engine, not time saver more like brasso poured in the carb' while revving the engine too help the piston rings seat.
I only have one thing more to say about time saver, Herm, I respect your work as a good machinist, however if you were as I was a few years ago(seven to be exact) having a very limited budget and time only you would possibly do as I did. I was anxious to get the 24 rolling so I tore down the engine and transmission, replaced the pistons and rings still standard bore. Filed part of the rod caps and all the main caps to true them from previous filing. Reamed the guides to oversize and used stainless valves hand lapping the seats. Cleaned everything including the trany in which I smoothed up the brake drum lugs with a file, recharged the magnets. and reassembled. I built the rear main Babbitt up with a copper iron then filed to get my end play correct. I put wood band linings in and went through the rear end installing new roller thrust bearings, well one set was new, the other set Ken Swan gave me from his ruxtell that already had 40 k on them. I now have over 35k on this engine and have only taken a shim out of #2 main about 20k ago. Point is that on a low budget and by takeing time you can achieve 100% bearing contact by using timesaver on a worn crank providing it is still round. I did have to straighten this crank as it was bent, did it myself on my press. You don't have to be wealthy to have a good running T. Any of my friends will tell you that my T runs as well as any. Nuff said, KB
You mean it didn't turn your motor oil the consistency of wheel bearing grease?
I saw your car at the Long Beach Swap Meet and watched you leaving on Saturday around 1-ish. I was standing next to "Tin Shed" Larry at the Model A Roadster and chatting, when you passed by. Like your car; it has a lot of character!
The way I see it, you have 2 options:
1)Take the engine out again, take it apart, and hope you find something, or not.
2)Drive the car, change the oil a lot, and monitor the progress.
I would opt for number 2. T engines are tough cookies, and it's unlikely that your crank will break or a rod will exit the block sideways. Perhaps the engine wasn't clean enough, perhaps something is wearing in now, but if you keep driving it and the oil keeps cleaner and cleaner, I would not go gagga over it. Put $100 per month away for the next engine rebuild and when you put the magneto back in, you can have a closer look with 4, 6, or 8 eyes looking over your shoulder.
Until then, try to stay sane.
Thanks Bernard, I hope to get to meet you next time! I too like option 2.
Last night after work I opened the trans door and had a look at the screen and inside the gearbox. The screen was pretty much clear of the sludge that had turned up two drives and checks ago. Here are the pics:
This is after the trip to the Long Beach Swap, the longest trip so far. I see a little magnetic fuzz on the magnet but very little of the sludge. Whatever it was, it appears to have gone with the last oil change.
Jim had suggested using a microscope and finding out exactly what is in the sludge/oil. I think that is a great idea for those with access to and knowledge of microscopes, spectrographs and other such tools. Back when I was a pilot we used to send oil samples out to be analyzed for bad indications. I know it can be done.
There are companies that offer mail-in oil analysis, they send you a kit with a sample bottle, you fill the bottle (with the oil you want tested) and they send you back a report on what's in the oil. Here's a link to a description of the process: