I don't think that these are the correct splash aprons on my 24, shouldn't they be more rounded and follow the bead on the front fender?
I believe they are correct. My '25 Tudor has those. Yes they don't follow the curve in the bead in the fenders.
Those are the 26-27 style of apron.
Those are correct for the 24 sedan, 26-7 will not fit the earlier car. The 24 and five used what was called truck fenders. Look at my profile pic . KB
My unmolested '25 Tudor had those "squared" aprons.
The '24 and '25 Sedans had the squared aprons. they were the precursors to the '26-7 "look."
They were built to prevent big footed lugs from stepping on them when getting in and out of the car.
A BIG THANK YOU everyone for all your input now I can spend that money on other areas that need attention. This is a great forum. I think the wheels will be next. I'm going for the galvanized rims and new natural spokes. I just finished the rear axle, it had the old babbitt thrust washers, a worn axle shaft and no brakes on the left side. Looking forward to a shake down ride but it probably not happen until next year. In the mean time I will be gleaning this forum for info.
I have what I believe is a 24 and my splash aprons appear to be more rounded. If Johns aprons are correct to his 24 fordor, not sure what I have? thanks, Ken
The aprons on my 24 Fordor are the rounded ones, i ordered 24 aprons and had to return them and use the ones for 23.
I never had a '20s T sedan, so I am not an expert on this. However, reading here I have seen many comments about the '24 and/or '25 sedans. At least some of them, did have the more squared look side aprons. Now, I do know from personal experience and over 40 years in this hobby, that many years ago, a lot less was really known than is known now. Apparently, more than a few sedans had the original side aprons and fenders changed years ago because of the misconceptions about what was really correct.
We all need to thank Bruce McCalley (RIP) for his decades of research, publication, and passion for figuring out what is right. Hap Tucker is continuing much documentation along with a few dozen others that I won't try to name right now off the top of my head.
My thanks to ALL the researchers!
Nice looking sedan! I would say, keep the side aprons. There is enough evidence that they are correct for it. Some sedans may also have had the more-rounded side aprons. Still much to learn.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
The aprons on my 1925 Tudor are round and follow the bead on the running board. However, there is a gap between the fender ad the Splash apron I.e., I can see the road through it. Can anyone tell me why?
The splash apron goes under the radiator. I believe your guys are talking about splash shields. If you don't believe me, check the book!
The answer to the ‘round’’ or ‘square’ is a bit of an enigma.
Using the timeline for drawings only, both the bead under and the square splash apron were released in time for the 1923 change from ‘low’ to ‘high’ radiator. The specification for the ‘square’ said for Tudors and Fordors. Nothing I have seen has been found that says ‘Coupe’ for the same period. Therefore it could be debated that all SEDAN closed cars with high radiator are expected to be found with bead under front fenders and with square splash shields.
Unfortunately, there is also one of those ‘% don’t match’ on existing cars. (Much like the statistical ‘bump’ that occurs on the April 25-end 25 SEDANS also having the 26-27 large drum Rear Assembly)
So what happened? Somehow the cut-in of this aesthetic change appears delayed with high radiator sedans. We simply do not know yet the cause because by then even Ernest Kanzler had the branches set up under his ‘just in time’ inventory systems so sitting on thousands and thousands of existing stock creates its own enigma. .
“Generally’ it appears to be almost a safe bet that if you have ‘Budd’ doors…you’ll have bead under and ‘square’ splash aprons. Before that there is the ‘might’ and ‘might not’ if the existing population is any yardstick. It is also fairly generally accepted that ‘bead in’ and ‘round’ was NOT a new car build, as well as ‘bead out’ and ‘square’, but there is no proof to support that either way.
To complicate matters, up until Bruce first published his own findings, and being a little nebulous in his own comments at the time, conventional wisdom in the hobby had held that ALL cars through end ’25 had bead-out and round and that all commercial chassis through end ’25 had ‘bead-in’ and ’square’. So by the then conventional thinking if you had bead-in and square on a sedan…someone had changed something along the way! During this era, many cars were changed to the then conventional thinking and of course wound up being ‘molested’ in the process.
Dave Sosnoski has done a lot of more recent investigation, specifically focused on Coupes and perhaps he might chime in with more detail.
The square aprons won't fit on the 23/24 sedan fenders as there is no flange on the fender to bolt them together as on the 26/27, i have a 26 coupe and a 24 fordor and they just won't go together, now there may have been some trial units made.
Here's what I know.
The front fenders changed for the 1924 model year with the introduction of the high radiator. The 1924 fender has the bead running outside the splash apron just like the 1917 - 1923 fender, but it has an apron on the front of the fender which the earlier fenders do not. The apron on the fender tapers down to match the new apron which is under the radiator and covers the front of the frame.
For the 1925 model year, the bead on the fender was changed so that it now runs behind the splash apron. These are typically referred to as the "Commercial" fenders but they were used on ALL of the 1925 models. For the 1926 model year the fenders on the cars were redesigned, but the 1925 fender continued Ton Truck for 1926 and 1927 - which is why people refer to them as the Commercial fenders.
Regarding the splash aprons, I always thought that the square aprons came out sometime during the 1925 model year - but I have nothing to support that belief. I do not think they were ever used on the Coupe, but were only used on the Sedans. It would not surprise me if there are some 25 Sedans with the square apron, and some with the round apron.
I also don't know if there is a difference between the 1925 square splash apron and the 26 - 27 apron. Someone will have to pull the ROC from the archives to check that.
The correct name for the parts that are in question are 'running board shields'.
The ones that are on the 24 Tudor sedan in question appear to be for the later 26-27 sedans and coupes.
Check out Howells sheet metal at www.fordor.com.
They make these parts and you can readily see the difference between the years on their online catalog.
My mistake for saying the car is a tudor. Its a 4 door. If there were square running board shields on some 25's it doesent make since to me that Ford would use them on his cars as they just don't match the lines of the car. But what do I know.
The 4 door is a different animal all together, the 24 tudor should have the squared splash shields, also the 25. The 26-27 shields are altogether different and will not fit the 24-25 tudor sedan. KB
Keith, Do you think that some of the early 24 sedans shared the same aprons as the 23? Ken
just went on google images and typed in 1924 model t tudor sed and most have rounded aprons.
Possibly Ken, I'm no expert, just know that my car was an unmolested example and that I'm the third owner. I have talked to the second owner a few times and he had known the original owners, that is what I have to go on in my case. I do think a lot got changed to the round shields and also the fenders for the reasons Wayne gives. The high radiator came out in mid 23 so who knows, also who knows what various dealers put together as most were not shipped in those day assembled. I haven't met anyone who saw one roll off the assembly line but there may be some one still out there. KB
This is from Bruce's book " Model T Ford " The Car That Changed The World. Page 341 Used here for the research. Our 1924 Fordor has the rounder shields. Regards, John Page.
Allow me to do a little ‘mea culpa’ here. One rule that I place on myself for forum postings is to speak from fact, or speak from personal learned experience. FWIW…The above post by me smacks of conjecture!
I went back and looked for my notes, as ‘in the day’ Bruce and I conversed on this very subject on my own little sub-plot to attempt to find/prove that the late ‘25’s, specifically Fordors, included ‘some’ ’26 features including the new larger rear with special brake rods, etc.
I perhaps ‘misspoke’ above. (Have to learn to not come off of memory without looking at a ‘refresher’. The brain cells don’t fire as good as they use to).
As to the Splash Aprons, the ‘C’ version was in general use from 1917-1925 on all ‘cars’.
Splash Apron (Left, all cars) 1917-1925 #4815C/T7987 *** Splash Apron (Right, all cars) 1917-1925 #4814C/T7986
Was there a specific Splash Apron drawn and released for the Sedans? YES.
My notes from Bruce say it was for the 22-23 version. However, I think perhaps Bruce didn’t have this quite right as the ‘D’ version ‘reappears’ again as the splash apron specified for the ’26-’27 Trucks! We know that the later ‘D’ versions were in fact square as this is probably where the misnomer of ‘commercial splash aprons’ comes from. I’ve never bothered to send to the archives for a ‘look see’ at drawings and change records.
Splash Apron (Left, Tudor and Fordor Sedans) 1922-1923 #4815D/T7748 *** Splash Apron (Right, Tudor and Fordor Sedans) 1922-1923 #4814D/T7747
To make matters even more complex, there was also an ‘E’ version. The ‘E’ version record does NOT say ‘Tudors & Fordors’ in my notes. The drawing and change record card ‘might’ answer that as to being ‘round’ or ‘square’.
Splash Apron (left) 1923-1925 #4815E/T7748B *** Splash Apron (Right) 1923-1925 #4814E/T7747B
So even with Bruce data as he compiled it appears that both the ‘C’ version and ‘E’ version co-existed…and my view being that just maybe the ‘D’ version went along for the ride too.
There is also an ‘F’ version which covers the ’26-‘27’s
Splash apron (Left) 1926-1927 #4815F/40128 *** Splash apron (Right) 1926-1927 #4814F/40127
As to Fenders, according to original comments from Bruce, the change to ‘bead-under’ was never a documented change as the Fender drawing list showed no revision change or factory number revision change when it did happen. Again, I never sent for the drawing to see if there were pencil mark-ups (Which sometimes Ford did). I also looked at the front fender history and for some reason my data shows that the number was the same thru end ’25 production. It shows #4800C/T7676B as the right, and #4801C/T77677B as the left, for the entire period of 1923-1925 and continued on the truck for 1926-1927. (#4800B & 4801B being the 17-23 version).
So hope this clarifies what I may have said earlier as ‘misspeak’. The truth is that the full research and written documentation on the later black cars, say the high radiator cars is a little looser than the earlier ones. It just happened to fall that way at the time, and someday someone has to sit down with the microfilm and go through it.
This just goes to show that having a so called 'correct' Model T is not an exact science.
Model T's were only correct when they rolled off the assembly line.
The one that came after it may have been a little different in some aspect.
I have the ROC for the front fender here in front of me - Part # T-7977-B - Front Fender Assy - LH.
Note that this is an assembly which is made up of other individual parts. To fully understand all the changes, you need to look at the changes made to each individual part as well as the entire assembly.
This fender assembly was initially designed on 6/18/23 as experimental. The experimental designation was removed on 8/18/23 when it was specified for use in 1924. This would coincide with the start of the 1924 model year which featured the high radiator. This "B" version was used into the 1925 model year, and through the 1926 - 1927 model year TT chassis.
As is common with body parts, some of the changes are spelled out in minute detail, while other changes simply say "Brought drawing up to date with the way things are being made". Sometimes the assembly specifies the details of the changes to the sub-assembly parts, sometimes it just indicates a change was made. Sometimes it doesn't even indicate that.
There are also changes which are made to a part which does not affect the fit or function and does not bump the revision. So while it would seem logical that the different apron should make the fender a "C" version, that is not necessarily the case. The revision of the apron may have changed but not the revision of the assembly.
I believe that the change to be beading is identified in the note made on 12-16-24.
"Changed height from 18-1/2" to 18-11/16.
Brought up to date with above change in aprons and ribbons as follows:"
It then goes on for quite a while changing hole locations and rivet locations and dimensions between various things. It doesn't say anything more about the "ribbons".
On that same date it specifies it for use for 1925.
On 12/1/25 it specifies it for use on TT Chassis 1926.
I believe the "ribbons" they are referring to are the beads in the fender apron. To be sure one would have to research the part numbers which make up the fender assembly to get the part number for the apron, then pull the documentation on the apron to see exactly what changes were made on that date - or pull the drawings for the apron for that date and the date before and compare them. The drawing for the fender assembly may or may not show the changes to the apron.
Running Board Aprons:
I also happened to have a copy of the Cost Accounting Records for the Fordor Sedan for February 1925. This provides a breakdown of all of the parts used on the car. Unfortunately when the archives copied the pages out of the book they didn't remove the pages from the binder, just put it on the copy machine. The part numbers are in the first column where the page curled away from the copier, making them hard or impossible to read. So I can tell you the description, how many were used, what the material, labor, overhead costs for the part are, but I can't tell you the part number (which is what I really wanted). Remember, this is cost accounting, so things are organized how an accountant would organize things.
Here is what I have - for what it's worth.
The high level Fordor assembly consists of things like the chassis, rear fenders, Sedan body assembly, and various other parts including:
xxx7-8 Qty=2 Running Board Shield R&L
Less parts detailed below:
xxx6-7 Qty=2 Running Board Shield R&L
The xxx6-7 most likely refers to the 7986, 7987 numbers George refers to above. Apparently for costing considerations these were considered part of the chassis assembly.
The xxx7-8 numbers are probably the 7747, 7748 numbers. So for cost accounting purposes, they took the cost of the chassis with the 7986-7 aprons, removed the cost of the aprons, then added the cost of the 7747-8 aprons.
The interesting thing is that there is no B version number listed. That would indicate that the B version of the 7747-8 aprons came out sometime after Feb 1925.
The Ford factory called the piece that ran from the fender apron to the lower end of the peak the "ribbon". This is the shallow skirt attached to the peak or top of the fender on the outer edge.
Then I stand corrected. Someone is going to have to research the assembly drawing and get the part number for the apron, the pull the documentation for that part. I'll bet that the change to the bead was probably made at the same time.