Time for New Detroit .....
In the twenties, they never would have imagined this happening. Does this mean I can buy the Highland Park plant for $100.00 at auction and live there?
You could live there, but carpeting it would be tough.
You wouldn't want to live there, unless you had a few body guards. That town is a waste land. I used to go there going to Canada, doors locked and hoping I didn't brake down.
This is what happens when there are more people on welfare that people paying taxes.
Whole neighborhoods of once proud elegant Victorian homes are barren of buildings because the city is demolishing all abandoned buildings that have become crack houses. Very sad. Other cities who try to solve problems by throwing government money at them, instead of creating jobs and making the populace self sufficient, instead of dependent upon the handout need to heed this warning or they could be next. Jim Patrick
When people get the idea that the government owes them a living and their problems are always somebody elses fault this is what happens.
I just hope all the young idiots that started driveing Toyotas back in the 70's that lead to Detroits death are the older 1's owed money to and they loose their A--.
The crack houses need to be left alone.Once pushed down,the crack dealers just infiltrate other 'hoods.Keep the desease contained!
I bet this qualifies The City of Detroit to receive EBT.
Unfortunately the unions, which once had a very useful place in providing workers with a voice and improving workers' working conditions, became corrupted by power and money hungry union officials, and greed and in some cases organized crime, which resulted in outlandish demands that the Auto industry just could not keep up with and which finally resulted in their having to move overseas where affordable labor and business friendly governments could be found and in moving, they also ridded themselves of the insurmountable debt the unions had saddled them with in expensive retirement and other benefits as well as salaries way more than the industry could bear. A classic case of killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. The unions killed the goose AND Detroit in the process. Jim Patrick
Mack, respectfully speaking, you're 'way off base. Foreign built automobiles during any time of the automobile's history haven't contributed to Detroit's cancerous demise in any appreciable way. William F. Buckley predicted this nearly 2 decades ago when he said, "socialism will creep into the very lifeblood of America because too many people vote". What he meant was that citizens with "no skin in the game" or "no dog in the hunt" will vote themselves government's treasury without having paid into it. Detroit is only the first of many cities and some states that will experience this. . .
"Do those who think the government can take care of them ask the American Indians what they think?"
Good thing they want to build a Welcome Center in the former Ford HIghland Park office.
One can be squeezed only so tightly....
One line from a recurring e-mail tells it all:
"We have let the free stuff giving go on for so long that there are now more people getting free stuff than paying for the free stuff."
If you want to see something sad type (Detroit decay photo) into any search engine, It looks like Berlin after WW2.
In regards to Dave Wells' comment about the Highland Park plant. The answer is no.
Highland Park and Hamtramck are two cities inside of Detroit. While they have borders entirely within Detroit including a small stretch where the two cities touch, they are not part of this bankruptcy proceeding. The Highland Park Plant is coincidently located in the city of.......Highland Park. I am guessing the plants location on the outskirts of metro Detroit and its proximity to the Woodward streetcar line made it an ideal location for the time.
The Highland Park plant is privately owned and not going up for auction any time soon.
If anything foreign competition has been good for US consumers. It has dramatically improved quality at the two remaining US automakers, Ford and Government subsidized Motors.
Touring Detroit is both sad and fascinating at the same time... I need to go back again some day.
I would love to do some "urban exploring" of some of the factories there.
I think the problem that caused the demise of Detroit is the illegal aliens working below minimum wage at the big factories while driving Japanese cars and selling crack. Did I cover it all?
Where the root of the problem isn't so much the illegal aliens in are work force but rather the work force over seas. Its impossible for the American work force to compete with $2.00 a day wages. Until America bands together and changes as a whole we will continue lose. Now when I say change I mean everything. Starting with education then the health field. We as a country are screwing are kids out of collage. These are the kids we will need for are future. I feel the best change we could ever make for are future would be free education. That one step would set America apart from the world and make us the super power we used to be. Did you know we have more people in are prisons than we have in collage? Sorry for the rant.
Well I agree George with what you are saying except I still feel like the cheap overseas cars had a influence.I was a kid in the 70's when folks around my home town were braging about their Honda's getting such better mileage than their American made cars they traded in.
As far as fixen Detroit,I dont think it can be.The population there has lived off the teats of the few taxpayers until they have forgot how to work.
BUT another perspective,not mine, but if all you saw when you looked out your front door was the mess pictured above,would you still have any hope left? I would consider it motivation to make a change somehow for the positive.
A short explanation of a pet peve of mine related to this general topic.When I worked in Mecklenburg county as a sign erector I was in some poor neighborhoods at times.I ask my coworker why was there so much trash on the sidewalks,people's grass so tall,houses falling down.He said,"These people are poor".
Well,there has allways been poor people.But until recently they have all had Pride in their country,themselves,and their homes and familys.Dirt floor houses were swept,tattered clothes were washed and patched.People made the best of what they had.What happened to that concept? Even these folks in Detroit for example.Why cant some of the poor,unemployed people grab some plastic grocery bags and pickup the trash? Why cant they get a lawmower or sling blade and cut some grass? Why cant a group of able bodied,unemployed men get together as volunteers and tear down some of the eyesores and fix others? I think if people would think of things like this,it would give them some ideas of what could be done to change the situation at the bottom on up.
I think I read somewhere that in 2011, only 1 person in a 77 block area paid their taxes, 47% of all taxable properties failed to pay their taxes in 2011 (probably other years as well), and 82% of the city is African American, with a 16% unemployment rate and 1 out of every 3 people lives in poverty.
This isn't something that just happened overnight, but a systemic problem for decades. 31 percent of the population is under the age of 18, you have rampant crime, defacto racial segregation, it's almost as if the people who run the city don't give a damn.....and the people who live there don't give a damn, either.
For those who remember the 60's and 70's, the American auto companies drug their feet about fuel economy and emissions reductions. They used the old technology with add on features which really made the cars run poorly. However the foreign companies looked at it as a challenge and re-designed the entire engine to meet the economy, reliability, and emissions reduction. And they did it at a lower price. Interestingly, even with the cost of importing the cars they still were competitive!
It was the reluctance of American companies to adapt, combined with increased government regulations and union demands for higher wages and benefits which finally caused the decline of Detroit. Another contributing factor was "trade agreements". Free trade only works on a level playing field. As long as we have more restrictions than others, they will beat us on the trading.
With this in mind, we need to be sure that we don't continue the destruction of our economy. When the United States makes regulations which are not required in other countries, and then buy products from countries which are not as strict and or have lower wages, we are not improving the environment. We are only lowering our own standard of living.
The producer of "Dirty Jobs" was on "Realtime" last week. He says the Cat dealer in Vegas has openings for 28 techs, and can't find workers. The whole country has been brainwashed into "Work with your mind, not your back," or "Work smart, not hard."
That's a big problem. Great careers are going begging while maybe half the college grads didn't learn anything useful, and are "managers" at the local fat food place. Student debt is over a $Trillion, and where did it go? To the for-profit institutions (all of them now are for-profit) and to the banks.
It took me five years, but I paid my own way through college, and was never in debt. I even had money to get married in my Sr. year. Would that be possible today?
Until our educators and politicians start telling the truth, they will continue to promote college degrees, when they should be promoting technical training. Somebody has to maintain and fix those robots in the factories.
Stockton and San Bernardino are already bankrupt. A big part of that is the pensions that have got way ahead of the private industry equivalent. Government Service should be just that: sacrifice present pay in exchange for job stability and good retirement. It's not so much that their benefits are too high as it is that private industry is squeezing the life out of its workers.
Back in the 50's 60's and 70's in the heyday of the auto industry, there were many wealthy businessmen that lived with their families in those beautiful, elegant future crack houses and most of them had domestic workers to help with the household chores and the raising of the kids. As the industry began to decline, many of those wealthy businessmen took their families and moved away to greener pastures, leaving the domestic workers with nowhere to go and no jobs. The African Americans that are remaining in Detroit are mostly the descendants of the domestic workers employed by the wealthy businessmen, once upon a better time. Trickledown economics. Jim Patrick
There is now way there could be that many wealthy business men. That city is loaded with blacks. I'm sure someone will tell us the percentage of the city population that is black I would guess around 75%.
I've been to Detroit many times, it is actually one of my favourite cities even now although I've seen how bad much of it is. I even felt safe there but,I'll never forget walking along a plaza one night and seeing a large caliber bullet hole at chest height in a store window. That really made me wonder if I have put myself in serious danger without knowing it. I've never met a person there white, black or even dirt poor who wasn't nice to me. It might get worse now. If they can't pay the cops their traditional megawages, many will stop doing a good job and the thugs will take advantage of it.
So much for the once glorious Motor City. There is some rumbling on some of the News channels of maybe a government bail out!?
Don't be surprised folks of what could happen.
The governments solution to everything....print more money.
Bail 'em out and see if there's not a dozen more towns try it next week.
If I was Obama, I'd take a tour of the area right about now. He's black and has a car that can stop any caliber Detroit could dish out. How safe is that? He could check out the very worst areas and then head to Greenfield Village for a photo op with all the past presidential limos.
Detroit actually filed the bankruptcy petition in the Detroit U.S. Bankruptcy Court 5 minutes before the state judge's hearing to block its filing. Now, she apparently thinks the bankruptcy filing should be withdrawn as violative of the Michigan constitution. Yeah, right. Ha,ha.
Detroit's situation is a harbinger of what will probably happen to the U.S. government shortly.
QUERY: Could the U.S. government file for bankruptcy protection in a U.S. bankruptcy court to wipe out its $124,892,676,892,193+ unfunded liabilities? Yes, it's actually 124 Trillion Dollars and growing by the second. Refer to the U.S. Debt Clock (http://www.usdebtclock.org/)for the ever-changing debt clock numbers.
I heard the Detroit went to the TV program Hard Core Pawn also in Detroit to see Les Gold about making a deal on the city..do you want to pawn it or sell it!!!
Jay, the Detroit decay photos to which you refer are perfectly understandable and acceptable, if you support our Dear Leader's desire to fundamentally transform the USA.
Thank you LBJ.
Your "Great Society" really worked!
It accomplished what Nazi Germany and Japan could only dream of.
It could be fixed but liberal democrats will never admit the failure of their policies.
I'm sure obummer will be all too eager to "prop up" the failed socialist experiment that destroyed Detroit. Perhaps, by so doing, he will be able to claim that he bailed out Packard.
Again, Thanks LBJ!
Your legacy lives on.
How to fix it. Ban imports of motor vehicles unless they were bought with foreigners money. Allow sales of locally built vehicles and politely ask toyota, honda and mazda if they would like to renovate the local factories of detroit and train the locals to work in them. If they turn that offer down ask them again explaining if they want to sell product in america again they had better make them in detroit. What is the worst that could happen? That they wasted money on a factory? They have accountants to keeps losses to a minimum.
OH OH -- This has to possibility of becoming a politically charged thread.
Good thing it is titled OT of some folks would have a hemorrhage
I agree with much of what has been said but disagree with some.
The “Detroit problem” is just the tip of the iceberg.
If the US keeps going the way we are – fewer workers (givers) and more takers - higher and higher taxes with the intension of redistributing wealth - the whole country will look like Detroit.
"....fewer workers (givers) and more takers..."
That folks, IS THE problem.
Here's a commercial for 'Vacation in Michigan' you're not likely to see on TV.
FDR warned that welfare should not become a 'narcotic'. I heard another one I liked a couple of weeks ago. They said that welfare was supposed to be a 'safety net', not a 'hammock'.
These import car companies already have factories here in the states. They been here for years using local factory workers to manufacture, assemble and service their products. They are keeping the US workforce working.
It is hard to fire Santa Clause. Those "takers" are also voters. It is the intention of the current regime to add so many takers to the voting roles that it will be impossible for the givers to ever have fair representation in government again or for the US to get back to the world power it once was with a self sufficient populace, instead of the third world country we are gradually becoming. That is why they want to open the floodgates to the tens of millions of illegals, most of whom are takers and most of who want Santa Clause and his minions to remain in office. Wake up America. Jim Patrick
Ain't that the truth.
Jim Patrick said it best, i am a retired gm worker, went i quit, i was an elected union official, the unions and all the welfare are the ones who dropped the bomb here.............
Individual cities aside there are 32 states officially bankrupt. Jim P is right on the money, no pun intended
At one time, America had Steve Jobs, Johnny Cash and Bob Hope. Now they have no Jobs, no Cash and no Hope.
Steve Jobs was no hero to me. He made big on the agony and sacrifice of ChiCom workers.
Finally ran out of other peoples money.
Dave, Can I get that in red in a size XL ?
My Toyota was made right here in California 10 miles from where I live.
That no good puppet commie bastard shut the plant down when he got into office. Where do Toyotas come from now? That put 60,000 workers at the factory and other suppliers out of work.
My Aerostar has digital instruments that I can hardly see in the daytime and can NOT see at all with the lights on in the daytime. I have seen and owned other so called American cars like that.
What the hell is wrong with the people that design cars like that?
I sure wish I could afford a used Toyota van.
I've had 'em all, Chrysler Town & County, Dodge Caravan, 4 cylinder and V6 Astro vans, Windstar, Aerostar. It is not all the unions' faults.
Gas guzzling crates with weak transmissions.
Built to not last very long. And most had p. poor brakes.
The lewd leftist democraps will not be happy until all cities look like Detroit.
Here in my city there is a half mile of closed down car dealer places that closed down 5 years ago. Alameda is the same. No more Chrysler, no more Chevrolet and no more Toyota. No new car dealers at all in Alameda. My town may have a few, but they are foreign cars like Hyundai & Kia.
It is hard to turn a country into a slum when so many individuals keep trying and working hard.
The next may be to outlaw private businesses. And maybe education.
OUR future is very dim. Not ARE future. If some of you guys can't tell the difference between our and are how can you expect ....ah forget it.
Democrat + Union = Detroit. ... IMHO
Have you been by the ex-Saturn factory in Fremont, Aaron? The Tesla Model S is wildly popular with the ChiComs in Hong Kong. It's making me less of a doubter about electric cars, in spite of its 1,000 battery pack.
I sure hope they don't expect the Feds to take over their debt in the form of another bail out. The state sure can't afford it. If the unions get that package, it may just cause another Revolution. They can burn Detroit to the ground and plow it under for all I care. Give the land to farmers that will work for their food.
Somebody there is making money. You don't get the skyline below from welfare recipients.
Even though it was not a Model T, my Grandfather flew to Detroit in September 1950 to buy this Plymouth new. I can imagine what a working blue collar giant city it was then. What a shame. I sure a major part of it's decline was Corrupt Politicians and massive Union deals. Oh well! You get what you Take.
Here is a thought.
Force the welfare recipients to work 40 hours per week cleaning the streets. No work, no check.
Freely educate them on how to operate heavy machinery. Allow those who took advantage of the heavy equipment education to work demolishing the ruins of the city. Let them continue to draw their welfare check AND give them an additional $200 thru $500 per week based on the amount of work they do.
When Detroit is finally cleaned, we will have given the people a clean city and job skills.
THEN hire these workers for federal construction jobs and NOT illegal immigrants.
Rebuild the city with USA material ONLY, preferring Detroit material.
Suspend EPA regulations for at least 30 years.
Attract industry back to Detroit with free land and zero taxes as long as they prefer hiring those who cleaned the city.
Give a buyers Federal Tax incentive for cars built in Detroit varying in proportion with the percentage of American parts used in the construction said automobile.
Adopt a true zero tolerance policy. Shoot "suspected" gang members and drug dealers on sight, treat them as the "enemy combatants" that they are.
RD Ricks, I have not been at the Saturn plant in Fremont, and nobody else has either.
Saturns were built in Tennessee. I also have a Saturn, a 1990 coupe. It too is crap. But at least they had sense enough to put a screw-on oil filter on the transmission.
In Fremont they built Toyotas, some had Chevrolet and Pontiac names on them though.
I have one, a 2001 with 197,000 miles on it. It has been a most perfect car.
They were selling well when the plant was closed down. Just because the Tesla took over the building and is building electric cars there has nothing to do with the closing of New United Motors that was building Toyota cars and trucks there. Tesla could have still built cars in many other locations.
Since I live 10 miles from that place I see Tesla cars almost daily in towns like Hayward and Oakland and Fremont and on the freeway.
There is a sports car that is a Lotus with an electric motor and there is a nice big luxury sedan. I see them both. So what?
And yes, I too am seeing so many electric cars that I may agree they are not as bad as some were saying, they are sure more of a car than my 1975 Citicar was.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.
Alexis de Tocqueville
Michael I like and agree with what you said.
BUT it makes to much sense and expects people to actually DO something about a problem.That is just not politicly correct.
Thought we were going to get away from politics?
Is it OK to post an opinion now?
I didn't post the original link to spark a political debate, although politics is part of the problem.
I posted it to show how far the birthplace of modern automotive manufacturing in the US has fallen in the last 60 years.
I will be selling my 22 touring because I would like to see my bride retire after over thirty years at the same job. She could except for not knowing the cost of health care and what next years costs will be.
The news says that Detroit is the first big city to go but also says California will have more to follow.
Nothing against you William! I am sick of the thinking of our leaders.
You're funny Jay and Michael, you have the correct answer to the whole problem on every point. That's why it will never be implemented, especially with the Dems in power.
William. Yes your original post was in regards to the downfall of the cradle of American automotive manufacturing and is directly related to our beloved Model T.
All of them had at least part of them made in the Detroit area and part of them were completely made in the Detroit area. And all of them put money in Henry's pocket.
(That logic hurt my brain)
At least the forum stayed away from the Zimmerman trial
I like my Detroit-made Fords, Aaron. Younger son's 2009 E-250 just replaced his E-350 with 195K miles. They improve them every year, and only change the front sheetmetal once in several years.
My '02 Windstar Cargo got 25mpg on the road and was going strong when I sold it last year with 213K miles. The 2003 Windstar Limited with 150K miles my older son drives is excellent, and my '04 Monterey Premier with 120K miles, and every option known, is under a free recall for a torque converter, and I am not even the first owner.
The data plates say, "Made in Canada." That's a suburb of Detroit, right?
The Japs haven't really changed since WWII. To them, business is war, and anything goes. They got caught falsifying flammability testing on about 150,000 airline seats a few years ago. Asiana 214 could have been much worse had the Japs not got caught cheating, and made to fix them.
For the record, Detroit has been a one-party city run continuously by Democrats since 1962.
My Windstar lost the 2nd transmission at 184,000 miles.
The thing got 19 miles per gallon with the 3.8 engine that lost head gaskets every 80,000 miles.
It was a '99, it drove and rode beautifully though. After the overdrive quit it got 16 MPG. The E and F 250 trucks are rear wheel drive 3/4 ton. Different story. The front wheel drive vans I will never buy again.
You know Ralph, we have guys up here that get 30 MPG on those Windstar vans. I don't believe them either. I have talked to a lot of owners driving various vans when I am at the gas stations. some BS me about that 30 MPG crap but most admit that 20 is possible if the speed is held down.
A nice fellow I do work for in Piedmont lost his automatic transmission on his Ford Ranger 3 times in 150,000 miles. He gave it to a friend with the tranny out and bought a new Toyota pickup.
I don't like the Nips any better than you guys do but I damn sure am getting tired of keeping American made vans running.
My 5 speed stick shift Aerostar gets right at 20 MPG with the 3 liter engine. Never any better.
Why did they stop offering the 4 cylinder in '87?
Was it because they give a rat's butt about the people that buy them?
The junk yards are full of Fords, late model too.
I never find old ones like my '90, they have been gone for years.
All I see is Windstars & more Windstars. They were built with the Taurus engine and transmission. They never even offered a standard transmission in them. Ford doesn't give a damn about the customer.
I'm a Democrat, I'm an American.
Aaron, the 2002 windstar cargo weighs 3800 lbs. It didn't get 25 in town, but I verified it several times on long trips at speed limit +10. The Monty is 4700 lbs, and barely makes 20 mpg on trip, maybe partly because it's a fuel pressure controlled EFI, instead of pulse width like the earlier years, and later years.
Interesting info on Tesla: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-07-18/the-tesla-electric-cars-creators -chase-their-iphone-moment#r=rss
My Windstar was also a cargo van. At 55 MPH steady on the freeway it got 18. After the overdrive quit it got 16 at 55 MPH. That was with no load.
At 65 MPH if I used the cruise control it would almost make 15 miles per gallon.
The best and strongest mini van was the Chev Astro Van. Known for poor brakes and noisy but it could get 13 MPG at 55 MPH on the freeway.
That's why I dumped that sucker. Thirteen miles per gallon with a 4.3 liter engine. Way more power than it needed too. Had to add a temp and gas gage so I could read what was going on without stopping and getting out my glasses and a towel to cover the instruments.
Stupid cars. no damn sense in the way they were designed.
Another thing, why does the jack that came with the Aerostars happen to be so useless that it won't lift any one wheel? Fine engineering. Just fine.
I recently changed the valve cover gaskets on a '98 Lincoln MK something.
had to take out a computer under and behind the instrument panel to get at the bolts that hold the power brake unit in and remove the windshield wiper drive to get the brake unit out and disconnect a nasty heater hose on the right side.
Took me 3 days. And at 100,000 miles all the ball joints were shot.
Nice engineering job on those clunckers.
The owner doesn't drive it on cold days because nobody has figured out how to replace a heater air diverter control. Beautiful.
I forget, why is it we buy & drive Toyotas again?
LOL Windstar van - My opinion - A POS!
When my daughter's Dodge Caravan had to be taken off the road because her husband refused to pay the insurance and would not give her the title (They are separated) I got her a Windstar.
It belonged to a friend who didn't trade it in when he bought a new vehicle because they offered him way too little money.
It worked great for about 6 months but then began having intermittent electrical problems - windshield wipers that would work sometimes - instrument lights that would go off, directional signals that would work when you didn't want them to. etc.
Finally I gave her our 2005 Grand Caravan with over 200K miles and it continues to work great.
It has Sto-and Go seats and the original spark plugs and wires.
It gets 19 to 24 MPG
My wife loved the Caravan so it was replaced with a 2013 Chrysler Town and County- again with Sto-and Go seats and tons of options.
Most minivans are crap. They were designed that way on purpose from day one. The car companies knew that nearly all of them were going to be bought by women, non car guys and other types who could be counted on to buy a vehicle based on features alone. Many of these owners were the type who couldn't even check their oil and would never consider applying car wax. They would bring in their post warranty, rusting, oil burning Ford Windstar or Freestar (AKA Ford Falling Stars),for repair, slap down a credit car and say,"fix it". Those sh***y vans were the main bread and butter for car factories and garages alike.
Dave, you got that right.
The Astro van was not junk though. That's why they replaced it with a front wheel drive piece of crap. I see so few I can't even remember the name. I still see hundreds of Astro vans every week. They were a good strong rear drive van with the best automatic transmission ever. But when the dropped the 4 cylinder and only offered it in the 4.3 V6 they had nothing but gas guzzlers.
I really loved my Ply Voyager 4 cyl (same as Dodge Caravan) but the Chrysler Town & country was by far the nicest vehicle I have owned. 3.8 engine, 19.5 MPG.
I am sitting at my computer in the passenger's leather front seat.
Too bad the trans came apart and I had to junk it.
It had 170.000 miles. They wanted $2,800 to fix it. They said it would go out again within 80,000 miles. Same as it lasted the first time. And second.
I sure wish I could afford to buy a Toyota van, or buy gas for an Econoline.
But as long as you guys insist on having Demorats running us that will never happen.
Proably the sad part of this thread is how few Detroit people affected have posted.Maby they are waiting to actually know what is going to happen before spreading bs and hate? One thing im shure of is working people and retirees will pay a hevy price!Another thing im shure of is the fact some will make alot of money from it.The last thing im shure of is Michagin gov snyder will steal everything to be had and give it to the state coffers to be doled out to cronies pet projects.The first words i heard out of gov snyder was Detroit could not pay the high retirie cost so you can be shure those people are in his sights.Bud.
Kenneth, are you from Michigan or is it a secret.
Most profiles have a little more than just a name.
After looking at the Classified lately, the rules should be changed to include more than just a name.
Yes,Im 9 and 1/3 miles east and 1 mile north of the center of the state.Almost 68 retired auto worker.Bud.
I'll rush right out and tell the local "My Taxi" co. they were fools to ever have Fords, and then bigger fools to upgrade from a large fleet of Windstars to Freestars, when they could have Tootas for only twice the price.
I'm with you. I am a Democrat. I proudly voted for Obama. I drive nothing but Fords, made in Chicago or Detroit. I'm 58 and still have 2 teenagers in the house, so I will be working until I am 66 or 67.
I also have 2 Model T's and am working on building a third.
The fools and responsible ones here are the American people. Not all of them, but many. Fools for voting. Not for a particular political party, but voting for WalMart and voting for Made in China and voting against local businesses and voting against Made in USA by buying at Walmart and buying Made in China.
Fact is, vendors can only sell products that customers are willing to buy. And if US customers were to send a clear message to corporate America that they want to buy Made in America, Walmart would sell Made in America and consumers were able to buy Made in America. Sure, the government can help by imposing tariffs on imports, but who really controls all of this with their money is the American people, and they buy Hyundays and shop at Walmart and Home Deport.
Bernard, I believe you are correct. The consumer has always set his own standard of living. Buying a new car made by a foreign company, even if it is "made in the USA" still sends the profits out of the country, contributing to the de-capitalization of America.
The profits sent out of the country are not subject to U.S. income taxes. The U.S. workers pay theirs, etc., but the profits the foreign company makes are not taxed at the same rates, if at all. Politicians, pressured to be all things to all people, borrow money to make up the short fall.
The consumer, while he feels that he's "getting ahead" financially by buying less expensive foreign made goods at WalMart, Home Depot, etc., actually is falling further behind, and worse so.
What concerns me is our nation's debt. The foreign nations (China, etc.) that loaned us money will eventually want it back; how will they feel, what will they do, when we don't have the cash to pay them?
I do believe that we will have the funds to repay the debt....courtesy of inflation....the longer we wait, and the higher inflation becomes (yes, it's low now - just wait a few more months), the more dollars become available (courtesy the Feds buying all those bonds [Funny money]0, the less valuable the dollar becomes.
What worries me is those who have saved some funds for home purchase or retirement or whatever, will find that they need much more to fund their dreams.
Remember what a loaf of bread or a quart of milk cost when you were little?
Yes, the wage earner gets paid a lot more these days than the $.50-.75 an hour they did a few years ago - and that's the point.....more dollars necessary for a wage or a purchase.
To the thread's title....why work when you can stay home and collect all those benefits - or as they are now called - entitlements.
Sorry state of affairs for all.
Another lie is "jobs Americans won't do." There are no jobs Americans won't do. There are lots of jobs Americans can't do for the piddly pay, and live with a bit of dignity. Cut off the illegal aliens, and watch American wages go up.
Meat packing is awful work, granted. Union wage used to be near $20, but the unions got shagged by the management, and now the union wage is about half what it was. Yep, illegals are doing the work.
Back to Detroit: Detroit's population has decreased from something like 1.8 million in 1950 to 680,000 today. Irregardless of the bankruptcy or how it got this way this has resulted in a disaster. How do you deal with a city that is 2/3 empty? So perhaps I am the only one on my block, and this repeats for thousands of others. So do you move all this people to a central location and return the rest to farmland? How do you deal with property rights and people who want to stay in their homes? How do you police or service such a widely dispersed population with limited resources? If a tornado had ravaged Detroit and left 2/3 of it destroyed, it would be declared a disaster area and FEMA and the Federal government would step in to help. In the West there are ghost towns where mines failed and everybody left, but these are small. Here we have a giant city with a relatively small population. It looks like a giant mess that I don't see an answer for. We are supposed to be our brothers keeper and we are a great country with great resources. So how can it be fixed? How many other cities in the rust belt are in the same position?
We bailed out GM and Chrysler, and they are as responsible for Detroit's problems as anybody. Why not make them pay?
The infrastructure costs of keeping up a city that's 2/3 empty is staggering as well. How much should a city spend to keep water/sewer/utility services up for a block that has one house remaining on it?
The city is dying a "death by 1000 papercuts".
The bankruptcy will allow the city to shed financial responsibilities and allow to focus on rebuilding.
I heard this morning on my stock market news a real estate investor who said they are already buying up single family homes left and right. You can buy a single family home in the outskirts of Detroit for around $13K outright. Fix 'er up, rent'er out for $500 per month when the time comes and you are way ahead of the game.
Who wants to be a landlord ... esp in Detroit.
There were 7 kids in my family.
3 of them worked in the meat packing plants in So. St. Paul. And were paid well.
I used to go west with friends and pick apples in the fall when I was young. Washington & Colorado. Black folks and honkies can not do that anymore. They just can't get hired even for low wages.
I agree with RD on that point. Americans WILL do those jobs, but why should they when the government will pay them more to sit on their asses?
Some of the best jobs I've had was cleaning apartments in the nineties. Cleaning and painting. Now the Mexicans only seem to be getting those jobs and at more pay than I would do them for.
I had a job in San Francisco in '86 & 87 working on BMW and Volvo cars. I got $15.50 an hour and the guy next to me got 14.50.
The boss canned us both one day and hired two immigrants at $10 each so instead of paying $30 for the two of us he could now have two guys for $20 an hour.
I still have credit card debt from that experience. I bought a house during that period and was out of work a loooooooooong time.
I agree with Hal - Who wants to be a landlord in Detroit?
Just getting someone to pay the rent would be hard. Then if you can get the freeloaders out (renter's rights and all that), the costs to fix the place would far exceed any income.
Its still a disaster, likely to be already repeated in other cities across the rust belt. I hope none are as severe. As to all the criticism, someone long ago said let he who is without sin, throw the first stone.
Fred, it's called Section 8 and the rent is guaranteed by the government. When the people move out they will have destroyed the place but the rent will always be on time.
We have a Habitat for Humanity, here in Florida, that builds houses for people that can't get housing for one reason or another. I think they still have to pay a certain amount
Down the road from me, they built 6 homes about 10yrs ago. Two of the houses are trashed, the yards are knee high, windows are knocked out.
You can't help people that don't appreciate and take care of things.
The people who live next to me leave new bicycles out in the rain, along with the rest of the trash.
Two animals that will foul their own nest...monkeys and humans.
I have a question. Are there as many auto workers now as there was in the sixties or has automation reduced the number of workers needed?
Well Jim, looks like your first post at the top of the page was correct.
Rob from Nova Scotia:
Automation has reduced the autoworker employment as has lack of demand due to foreign competition, longer vehicle life and a host of other matters. United Autoworker Membership has declined from a 1979 high of 1,500,000 persons to a year 20000 number of 700,000 members, 2013 membership is 355,000! That is quite a decline to say the least.
In 1984 Pontiac Michigan had 28,000 GM Workers. Last year in was just over 1200. Flint Mich, the home of GM has undergone a similar decline. I do not know the numbers for Detroit, but am certain they are similar.
In 1972 Japanese steel came into the Fisher Plant where I worked. The UAW guys fought it and worked around it, but it was good steel and eventually was widely accepted. I remember a crusty old engineer, Jack Connel who asked the plant manager, "What are we going to do when the steel workers can't afford a Chevrolet?"
Gm Had 56% of the automotive market and the biggest concern was being forced to breakup to satisfy antitrust. Then along came Roger Smith, but that is another story.
I remember the hundreds of posters in the Olds main plant pending a visit from roger that said Will Rogers never met roger smith!! Bud.
"Detroit could not pay the high retirie cost"
You know it seems easy for 30 somethings and 40 somethings to look at cutting retirements.
I guess they are to dang dumb to relize the cuts they make now will leave them broke when they get to retirement age.
It is moraly wrong in my humble opinion to hire a man and tell him he has a retirement plan and let him pay into it,only to say a few years later or when it is time to start drawing it,"Oh sorry,we cant afford you anymore,get lost".
That is outright lieing to people and cheating them.
It is also wrong for any company or goverment to not properly invest retirement funds so when it is time to meet their obigations there is funds avaliable for it.
So if Detroit trys to fix it's self by screwing it's retirees,then I hope it falls to the ground like a dead pine tree.
Mack, I agree with you. However, the money to pay the retirees was to come from proper investment, yes, but also from the expected future tax revenue, and this is where it's fallen short.
Money has to come from somewhere. When promises are made to workers that "you will receive a pension", everyone expects that economic conditions, including levels of employment, will be essentially the same when retirement comes as when the promises were originally made.
Foreign competition, sending capital (profits to the foreign car companies that minimal taxes are paid into our own government's treasury) out of the country have contributed to reduced employment which results in people moving which results in less taxes paid into the government's treasures which include pension funds.
Detroit's condition has been predicted years ago. It's Detroit's time to pay the piper; the problem is, we all pay, usually through increased taxes. The old Fram commercial of "Pay me now or pay me later" meaning it's cheaper to deal with it up front and more expensive to deal with it later, was correct. "Later" has arrived in Detroit; other's will follow.
It's a downward spiral; the only thing to stop and eventually reverse it is to keep our capital at home. This is not intellectual theory; it's fact. I simply wish it were not so.
It's a bad situation all around. I agree that it is bad to screw people out of their retirement and I would be PISSED if it happened to me. On the other hand, I didn't screw them out of their retirement and I, as a tax payer, don't feel like I and other taxpayers should have to bail out Detroit. But they probably will. And they'll call it something besides a bail out. Then later down the road they can say they didn't bail them out......And so it goes. Whatever will be will be and there ain't a damned thing we can do about it.
Perhaps they should seize the assets of the small army of corrupt politicians Detroit has had over the years......