This is another one of my doodlings. Posting it here to see if I've missed anything or not (you folks ought to know)
Again please let me know if I've missed anything.
Revised the picture...
This would be a 1915 to 1917 headlight. The adjusting tab on the 17 to 25 would be 90 deg. to the side of where you show it now. If you are going for 1917 to 1925 the correct number for the socket is T6574X;
Great looking illustration.
Was there a tube with a slot in it for the bulb socket built into the headlamp housing?
Mark beat me to it. The socket shown is a single contact part number. Not sure what that would be used for since the magneto lights used a double contact socket too--The lights were wired in series. The bulb filament was not grounded to the base. The later double contact sockets provided for high and low beam and the filaments ARE grounded to the bulb base.
doesn't the 6574-SGL go with a 6592-15 or 6592-15XB (angle plug)? I couldn't find a 6574SGL and had to adapt a 6574 to use my angle plugs. Are there any 6574 SGL's out there anywhere?
Photo below is the '21-'25 headlamp inside
The earlier magneto bulb headlamps has the adj screw on center over the socket.
Don't forget about the earlier battery electric headlamps which were two bulb, with two sockets in the bucket,
until the intro of the twin filament bulbs, then the battery electric bucket reverted to single bulb housing again.
Doesn't T-6586-X hold the reflector in? Therefore it should come after the reflector, HUH?
No, the T-6586-X is the spring that holds the reflector in the bucket, it fits into to the channel lip in the bucket just behind the reflector.
Mark, you're right, mines on the side like Dan's pictures show it (don't know what I was thinking).
Dan, Hmmm, that's a good thing to know, I'll change that. What year was the one with the two bulbs?
Greg, no you're right that socket wouldn't work for a magneto, I'll fix that.
Martin, that's what I thought I said. first the reflector, then the wire, then the (cord) gasket etc
Maybe you'er right. I haven't been there for a while.
Ok, how about this? I'll make the one for the later year tomorrow.
I believe that the Fluted " H " Headlight Lens wasn't introduced until around February 1922. Reference Ford Service Bulletins page 227.
Regards, John Page
John, I'll have to look into that, thank you.
Only 'minor' change to your drawing for the magneto bucket along with smooth clear glass as John posted is to draw the post flange with the flat sides. The later buckets have tapered sides on the post flange. The flat side post only will fit into the earlier front fender brackets
1916 Parts book
'15 up to the later ones.
Per Bruce's CD Encly parts listing:
6511KX '21-'25 magneto headlamp
6511CX '19-'20 Two bulb headlamp
6511D '20-'21 Frosted bulb with dual filaments
6511EX '21 green lens
6511HX '21-'25 Ford 'H' fluted lens....the most common headlamp found on black radiator T's today.
I !LOVE! your drawing!!!
For those of us who are assembling a car from bits or trying sort one out that was built this way a clear drawing like this is a real aid.
I do have one suggestion. I would like to see the nut & cotter pin size called out in the drawing.
As a case in point, my own Problem Child has two different sized nuts to hold the headlight buckets to the fender iron. Possibly I have a headlight from two different years or possibly somebody decided to rethread one in a smaller size. The assembly seemed secure so I just used them the way I found them. A drawing like yours with this info called out would be a help!
Vintage Paul, sorting out a bitsa
Don't go overboard Dan. I don't think the drawing is meant to be a document of production with all the detail of changes. It's simply a catalog reference to identify primary parts and locations.
Paul, every parts catalog I looked in didn't say anything about those parts, but you're right I should have that information available as well as the cotter pin and washer size on the socket.
Dan, I appreciate the information (and the pictures ), but every catalog I looked in had the H fluted lens listed from 15-27. How about I change it to the clear lens and put the fluted one as a possible aftermarket accessory item? And I'll take care of that iron mounting too, thank you.
I know you're probably getting tired of looking at this, but I'd really like to get it correct.
If you see any mistakes or changes that need to be made, please tell me, thank you.
I changed the title to reflect the corrections.
The H Lens was a genuine Ford item introduced in February 1922.
I suspect you are looking at the later parts book. Those often show parts as applying to earlier cars even though the earlier cars did not come with it. The headlight glass was originally just plain glass. Sometime around 1921, laws were passed requiring the use of a headlight lens, not plain glass, to minimize dazzling of approaching motorists. (Need to get an authority for that.) So, since plain glass was no longer legal, the fluted glass was to be used on all cars.
No problem seeing it 100 times! I guess my own question would be what is your purpose? Is it to just say what you can do buying the 'close enough' parts from present catalogs when working on a '15-'17? OR, are you attempting to be all inclusive in a historical sense...and show what we are stuck with using today? Both, either/or are fine...your choice, your efforts which are fantastic!
It makes a difference as to which way because I can see your illustrations becoming definitive works for the future, they are that good.
As an example, I believe that your master illustration should change the original plain glass lens to just 6576-X.
The 6576 BX was the built in green eye shade that came along during the 21 model year and was only used during that model year.
But as a guide for 'today', the difference is rhetorical...you can only buy the 'H' lens (or other aftermarket prism lens at swap meets.
The original lens (Actually the second original lens for '15, those built in the fall of '14 used a different one and a different size) was plate glass which I'm sure folks could cut today but really wouldn't want to.
I'm not trying to be 'constructive criticism'...I love what you have done. I have done all of the research on electric lamps, etc and really, to make the topic from '15-'27 reflect historical makes your eyes almost cross, yet I do find that this gang as a whole actually prefers a more plug-n-play answer on a 'just do it', rather than be absolutely historically accurate. Just saying, FWIW.
Very nice drawings!
I hate to bring this up but the bulbs shown in the drawings will not work since they will not focus. The thing that is wrong is the filament shape. I am not being picky but the focusing mechanism is useless unless the focal point of the filament is properly centered and at the correct point in the reflector.
Unfortunately the shape of the filament is something the import bulb makers completely ignore.
here are a couple of bulbs with same bulb number but with different filaments. The first picture is the correct shape you need to have.
The next one is incorrect
John, do you have a part number and company for the correct one? Also, how come everybody has said that the Magneto socket is a two contact socket and plug when this bulb you've got here is a single contact? How would a single contact bulb make contact in a double contact socket? Would that also mean the socket would have to change as well as the wiring plug?
George, thank you for your comments, the reason I'm doing these, is I'm just bored. Retirement caught me waaayyy before I was ready for it (the economy, nobody wants to hire anybody over 60). I got out some pictures I took back when I was rebuilding my carb and just as a lark, sat down and drew it that's the Kingston L-4 Drawing I posted here. I just got the bug and wanted more projects (something to do), so I started taking my car apart looking for something interesting to draw. So far, I've got the L-4, headlights (15-17 and 22-25), top bows, bow straps (fore and aft) I was doing the wheels, but I'm not happy with it and going to change it a bit and I'm currently working on Holley NH, after that I might try the G and after that...I guess I'll just draw the whole damn car, hell, I've got lots of time, lol .
Oh, and here's another version of the assembly, it now reflects both Langs and Snyders p/n's also with some minor part changes.
Here's the 22-25
I love the clarity of these drawings. It is easy to see what goes where, a big aid when trying to assemble the parts from piles or when bits were mixed up. A collection of these drawings would sure make a wonderful parts book, I would buy one . . .
Excellent drawings! Just bringing up Dan's point regarding the post flange for the 22-25 lights. The flange has a taper rather than the straight cut of earlier light posts. If can find a good picture I'll post it.
the 6574 don't work with the angle plugs and the 15 bucket without modification. On the 6574 and 6574x the tab is in line with the slots for the pins on the bulb. With the adjustment screw on top, the angle plug points at the radiator or the top of the fender! I've only found 6574SGL in pictures--not for sale.
These drawings of Martins are outstanding. This sort of detail is something that is lacking in original literature. He is to be commended for his efforts to get the detail right. I personally think that it needs to be correct in all the detail as there is so much information out there that has become gospel that isn't exactly correct. Keep up the good work Martin.
Thank you, John Page
The 22-25 post is straight. The taper is in the stop flange of the post. Here's a "rough" version of taper. I'm not sure of the positioning of the cotter pin hole but it is about 1/8" instead of the 3/16".
By the way, I can't draw a good picture with a camera so take it for what it's worth.
The cotter pin hole could be 3/32" but it's definitely NOT 3/16.
Martin, excellent drawings but can I suggest that you put a "draft" watermark or similar on the drawing until all the corrections have been made.
I posted those bulbs only to show the filament shape - nothing else. Look closely at the one double filament original bulb that was posted and you will see the "correct" filament shape of both filaments is the vertical teepee shape. The bulbs whose picture I posted were in fact both sold with the same bulb number but you can see that the filament shape is radically different. I was not posting an original bulb because they typically are burned out.
Ok, I think I've got it right, please understand that most of the pictures I've been using (with the exception of those posted here) are from either my car or the parts companies.
I'd like to also add, my thanks for all the great tips and advice from everybody. I knew this was the right place to post these because of the range of expertise by car year (catalogs can't do that).
I own a 22 touring, but have no idea what the 15 -17 looked like until you all started telling and showing me the differences.
As for what I'm doing with these, I have no idea what to do with them. Like I said, I just got bored one day and thought it'd be fun to draw parts of my car specifically the carburetor (Kingston L-4), now I'm thinking of doing the entire car...not sure that's been done before or not...but it would be fun! lol
Just as a clarification, The taper on the stop post is only on two sides for the 22-25. Your drawing appears to show a taper all the way around the post stop. It's similar to the 15-17 but the cuts are angled and end before the top of the stop. I've modified a snip of the 15-17 image to help convey what I mean.
Ken, just noticed that myself, already changed, thanks.
Damn! There would be no line on the non tapered side.
I think this in finally right...(fingers crossed).
Looks good so far.
(Reads the above posts) Wait, modelthaven sells new headlamps?
Kep, they have just about every bloody part for these cars, of course they're selling bits and pieces and the bucket is just one. The thing that bothers me though, it's the same part number for 15 as well as for 22. And from this discussion we both know that just can't be.
They also have a NEW parts section where they're selling everything both Snyders and Langs are selling, sort of a one stop shopping thing, I guess.
Yeah, the 6511 is the same but the suffix letter changes. There were also round back housings in addition to the flat back as illustrated but maybe we shouldn't get into that.
Never mind the round back. You got it on the 15-22.
Well, my mind will catch up to my fingers eventually. The 6511 number is supposed to be the entire assembly. At noted in Dan's parts list, 6562 is the number for just the bucket.
Ken, that number might be what Ford used, but Model T Haven is using it for empty buckets for years between 1915 thru 1925. This is the website catalog reference: http://www.modelthaven.com/npeht.html
"T6511A-U, Headlight Bucket, USED, 15-25, click here for photo"
photo when you click the link:
I guess you're supposed to pick and choose from the pile.
Martin, Love your drawings and please don't stop. Talked to a newbie today and he said the greatest things about your work. Please do top irons next! Thanks again, Bill
Martin, your drawings are tremendous, I just wish I was able to do what you can.
Years ago when I was talking to Bruce McCalley he told me of the constant trouble he had in finding out what things actually were.
Not having a forum in those days made it difficult to gather all the people who each had a piece of the puzzle. He would hunt around find all the variations he could for a part, print them in his articles only to find someone else then sent him a letter telling him about one or more variations.
From this exercise of yours we all have a great clear picture to help all of us and those who will later on need to know such.
I don't know if this is of any help or its going to make what you have done confusing to everyone.
When I was driving across the USA in 2011 The worse thing that happened to me was I lost a headlight. On close inspection it was obvious the weld was faulty and only partly worked therefore the stem broke away from the plate which it riveted to the bucket.
No problem I would just get another and buy any bits I needed from Chaffins.
When I looked at the light I noticed it was different from the ones friends offered me.
Maybe its a Canadian version. I eventually got one the same and looking at others in my junk found 3 different types.
Here they are, maybe an extra rear view of your lights may be needed so we can see other differences ( there may be more types??)
Some of the differences.
B not tapered (round)
C ( in first picture (Canadian ??)
In other photo two types
D Different widths
holes 12 and 9 o'clock
Peter, wow, there are some pretty large differences between these and what I've seen and heard about during the course of this post, thank you for informing me about these. I think you got "A" and "B" mixed up though..."A" looks like it ought for a 1915 and "B" looks pretty typical for 1922. What's really interesting, is the bracket that holds the post to the bucket, mine (22 touring) looks more like the one on "A" than the one on "B", but the post is as it is on "B".
Don't want to hijack this thread. However, I'm curious. So you have other model t "doodlings". ?
Thanks for this timely drawing. This really helps me put my empty buckets together in my 24 jalopy coupe.
I was raised in Granada Hills and my siblings and mom are still in G.H.
Martin, I looked more closely and you are right.
A has flats on each side, B the tapers as per Kens drawing posted 7:46pm
My first thoughts were that the flange at C on my photos would be increased to beef up the strength so the light on the right was before the one on the left ??? in the second photo.
Looking at it again the left light appears to it might have a two piece bracket and the right one a one piece forging.