Slow Speed Notch - Replacing Pin with Bolt

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Slow Speed Notch - Replacing Pin with Bolt
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 01:57 pm:

Working on getting my pedals and shafts back in my 1919 hogshead. I'm replacing the pin in the slow speed notch and shaft with a bolt and nut, so it will be easier to remove/repair in the future. Question: How much rotation travel is needed on the notch and shaft? In the photo below, you can see the bolt and nut through the notch and shaft in a test fit. The ends of the notch have cleared the cam, but at that point the nut and bolt end are up against the other shaft housing. The cap on the bolt is okay, as I ground a bit off the other shaft housing, but don't want to take too much off anything, if it's not necessary.

Obviously, the hogshead is not in the car, so I can't determine how much pedal travel is enough by checking it against the floorboards.

Thanks in advance for any help and info. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 02:08 pm:

That needs to be a rivet. It would be a real disaster if the bolt or nut fell off. I can't think of any reason that you would want that to be bolted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 02:17 pm:

Royce, I've read past several threads regarding this pin, and that several folks have replaced the pin with a bolt and nut for easier removal when/if needed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 02:19 pm:

It's pretty easy to rivet - why not just do it? You can make a nice rivet out of the bolt in your picture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 02:22 pm:

Dave that is turned to far, the notch should not leave the cam or the pedal will not return,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 03:03 pm:

Royce - I likely could, but I'd need more tools and equipment than I have on-hand. Don't want to bend the shaft, or the housing when peening a pin either. Plus, it'll be much easier to remove if necessary.

Jim, That's what I needed to know. As long as the shaft and notch can rotate as far as it needs to, without the bolt/nut hitting the other shaft housing, I should be okay. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 04:31 pm:

All you need is a medium sized ball peen hammer and a piece of steel to hold the rivet head in place. You can use a second medium sized ball peen hammer for example.

Certainly you must know a person who has two hammers? It's really, really easy to install a steel rivet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 05:00 pm:

In addition to the possibility of that coming loose, it will likely wear the cam and/or the shaft to an egg shaped hole. Rivets expand and fill the hole making a much tighter fit. No way would I use a bolt there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 05:06 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 05:08 pm:

Perhaps I will use the bolt as a rivet. I can center-punch the end of the bolt so the nut won't come off after I locktite the threads. Basically, they same thing as a rivet. Plus easier to remove later if necessary. Just grind off the end of the bolt and wrench it out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 05:12 pm:

How is it then, that when I read previous threads on this, I saw that several guys had replaced the pin with a bolt, and no one said boo? Not that I'm against a pin, just didn't read about any problems before when it was discussed, now suddenly it's a terrible idea.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 05:41 pm:

Dave,

The primary comments come from a source well known for his opinions. I wouldn't have any concern about using a snug fitting, good grade bolt in that application as long as you have used Locktite on the threads and a punch mark or too as a backup. After several more decades of regular use, there may be a little wear in the holes but I suspect we will all be long gone before it would be noticeable.

Would a well fit rivet be better, probably but ...

Walt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 05:47 pm:

Thanks, Walt.

And thanks to all for your input. That's what is so great about this forum; the vast experience and knowledge, and varying opinions and advice. I listen to it all and then make the best decision for my particular situation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Weir on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 05:51 pm:

I used a taper pin and reamed the holes. Cut it to the right length then used permanent grade Loc-tite. Forgot the size of the pin.

Sincerely

Jim Weir


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 06:00 pm:

I'm not following the mentality of not just repairing as it was assembled originally from the factory ???? Quite a simple process to set a mildly soft steel pin.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Weir on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 07:52 pm:

Steve;;; My cover was parts from several covers and nothing matched up. Hence the taper pin.

Jim Weir


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 09:12 pm:

Dave, don't haul any one you love in your car!!

Listen to what is being told to you, beings you had to ask questions tells me you don't know, so then all you have to go on is common sense, and if you are going to listen to some one else that dosen't have any, your going to fail.


I don't think there in room for the bolt to work any way.

But the original shafts were put in with a light press fit, while not all, many have to be pressed out.

When you put in a new shaft, most you can be put in by hand. Even when you rivet, the shaft, and or the piece inside you have, will be loose, not like the original.

On the peddles and the cam inside, I spot weld the peddles and grind, and grind a spot on each side of the cam and spot that also with a wire
welder.

You don't have to clean up the weld inside.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 09:16 pm:

Steve;;; My cover was parts from several covers and nothing matched up. Hence the taper pin.

Jim Weir


Jim, did you use the taper reamer to match the pin?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Weir on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 09:52 pm:

You Bet !!! then I trimmed each end to leave about 1/16 or so sticking out.

Jim Weir


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 11:00 pm:

Use a rivet. You will never have to remove the notch or pedal again.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 11:06 pm:

You Bet !!! then I trimmed each end to leave about 1/16 or so sticking out.

Jim Weir


At-a Boy!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 11:29 pm:

I have new parts on the way, including a new pin. Didn't realize I'd be putting lives in danger by using a bolt rather than a pin. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 11:35 pm:

If the bolt won't clear the point is moot but if you're staying with a bolt and it works get a self locking nut or a star lock washer or some Lock-tite at least. Or go Henry old school and drill it for a cotter pin. Just don't leave it with a chance that it'll come apart and make you cry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Monday, July 29, 2013 - 11:52 am:

Thanks, Charlie. I had planned to locktite the threads, and center punch the end of the bolt so the nut would not move. There is enough room for the bolt and nut. Again, from past threads, I thought I would be in good shape with this, but maybe not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, July 29, 2013 - 12:06 pm:

Before "Loctite" and similar products were invented, a common practice was to purposely damage screw threads at one or two points with a punch or chisel in order to prevent accidental loosening. This practice was/is called "staking".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Monday, July 29, 2013 - 12:10 pm:

Are you home, Harold ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Monday, July 29, 2013 - 12:11 pm:

Thanks, Harold. It was my intent to use locktite, and "stake" the bolt end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, July 29, 2013 - 12:40 pm:

Got home a couple days ago Steve; thanx for asking. Now dealing with a "jungle of weeds", etc, etc.


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