At canyonlands 4 I saw a 26 roadster that had a model A front axle and wishbone. The obvious plus was the front brakes. I didn't get to examine it closely so didn't get to figure out what exactly was done. Anyone know this car or one like it and the adventure involved?
To bad someone had to wreck an original Model T to make it drive like a modern car. Why not just buy a Model A instead?
How do you know it wrecked an original T?
Speaking of "wrecks', it only takes one bad one to wish you had made safety improvements to a driver or car used on tours. If you want a "show queen" or museum piece, then go for authenticity and correctness of restoration.
I only took one photo and had to go. To bad it isn't much of a detail shot.
Erich- are you sure that was a roadster and not Bill Barth's '26 Coupe? The color in your pic could very well be Bill's coupe.
I like the arrow shaped directional signals
Looks like hydraulics . . .
Erich,Did you see a early V-8 emblem on the car? If the car im thinking there is a 60 hp V-8 under the hood.Bud.
thats a 35 or 36 axle, they drop down more on the ends. must be goin for that low rider effect
That's not a Model T anymore.
No, but it's a cool hybrid.
We restored and planted all matching left over rough Model T Sheet metal (nobody would use on their T) on a T frame from a scrap yard using a combination of A,B,and V8 running gear stuff with B motor years ago. I don't think we wreaked any model T and registered as a 27 touring..What a fun driver it was and a real sleeper.
Model T folks marveled at . But that's was 30 years ago..
This car can be the same thing. And for all we know he has 4 choice "T" jobs in his shed!
The tour book shows it to be Bill Barth.
Here we go again. Erich didn't ask for commentary, Dave, Royce. He asked if anyone knew how it was done. Hopefully he's building a car with an e-timer and 4 wheel juice brakes.
Your opinion is welcome here. So is mine. I'm not disparaging your opinion.
It's my opinion that any non - Model T's should be parked a minimum of 5000 feet from actual Model T's during official club functions to keep the public from thinking they are authentic.
Yup,That car and Bill Barth are both a class act!! It has been several years since we did a short day tour with Bill and others from the Central T's.I miss seeing Bill and his Wife because they were both Friendly! Harryzona's gain is Michigan's loss!!Bud.
I thought Bill Barth lived near Berthoud, Colorado.
Whoaa! Misleading the public. Now that's a crime!
I would guess that frontend with brakes and wishbone adds about 100 lb of unsprung weight. Unless it's holding a much heavier engine, that's overkill. The Nash Metro brakes on my car add only about 15 lb.
I knew there would be more to the story. Thanks for helping fill in the details all.
That coupe has a v8-60 in it. It is a nice car and has a neat carrier for his wife's wheel chair.
I believe that Bill got the lifetime award at the banquet and was a past president of the MTFCI. There were a lot of nice cars on this tour.
Anyone want to join me out in the boonies at the next car show? My truck has a non-factory, non-Ford, Martin Parry body, a horn that moos like a cow, and rear wheel brakes, so I guess it's not a real Model T. My 15 touring has all vinyl upholstery, Rocky Mountain Brakes on a big drum Ruckstell, a later front axle with wishbone underneath, a later engine with a starter, and much more. Better park that one 10,000 feet away! Somebody put step plates on the running boards of my Fordor too, along with a Ruckstell, brakes, all vinyl upholstery, and a Stromberg carb. All of my cars have brake lights, mirrors, and wipers! I guess I'll just have to drop out of the club altogether since I don't have any Model T Fords!
Seriously, these cars are 100 years old, and changes have been made to them since the day they left the factory! How many people have not made any changes to their modern car? Have you installed a different brand or size tire? How about custom wheels? Stereo? Console? New shocks from a different manufacturer? New paint job maybe in a different color? Even Ford recommended making some changes. There are service bulletins telling dealers to make changes to cars as they came in for repairs such as changing to the new style radiator and hood if a replacement was needed or the biggie, change a two pedal two lever car to a three pedal one lever car.
If you are lucky enough to have an all original car, or if you want to build an exact copy museum piece, by all means DO IT! If you are comfortable driving that same car on tour, more power to you.
Most of us have acquired cars that have been through several owners, and several "restorations" some of which were done before quality replacement parts were available, and some parts have also been added for safety and drivability. That is really what this club is all about! Touring! driving these 100 year old cars safely and for FUN.
I am in the middle. I will add things for comfort, safety, and reliability as I see fit, and I will remove and "restore" things that I want to be more original. I have removed distributors from two of my cars and restored them to coil operation (12V) and when the engines come out some time in the future, I will restore the magnetos too, but I have added mirrors, brakes, and brake lights to all of my cars.
When I show my cars, I always stand by the car and talk to the people who are interested in it. You won't see my car without me nearby unless I need a potty break. After debunking / explaining all of the myths that everyone has read about our cars, I will point out the changes that have been made to my cars and explain how they originally came from the factory. I tell them that it didn't originally have rear wheel brakes, brake lights, mirrors and wipers, vinyl seats, or two-speed axles. They are glad for the information and understand the reasons for the changes, and are not mislead at all.
If you park your car and put a "DO NOT TOUCH" sign on it and then go off to sit in a lawn chair under a shady tree, then yes the public will be mislead. They will be mislead about the purpose of our hobby, our club, maybe by what they see in the car, and certainly by everything they have ever read or been told about Model T Fords.
There's a place for everything. I, for example, would love to own a Model A with '21a: wheels, juice brakes, B engine, 5-speed, and a totally scruffy '17-21 Runabout body atop of it. Would use it daily, weather permitting and would not feel bad about it, as I would not try to pass it on as an authentic T.
VVery good, Jeff. Where would the Long Beach club be today without you having run the swap meet for several years, and serving a few terms as Prez? Shudder...
Everyone has a line they will not cross. No Modle A parts on my car. '37 steering gear, yes, but not Model A.
The engine has '23 Chevy crank and rods, and a Frontenac head by the Chevrolet brothers with Big Block Chevy exhaust valves in all 8 holes, like Chevrolet must have copied the Frontenac.
No Model T engine = no Model T. I like Bill Barth a lot. If he wants to drive a hot rod to the Model T meet he can park with the modern cars.
Bill drives that car as it is the most comfortable for his wife Jean to ride in. Where he parks it is where Jean has the shortest walk to the motel entrance. She has trouble getting around these days and is a real trooper for wanting to tour any more. If you really do "like Bill Barth a lot", and presumably Jean too, then maybe you could cut them some slack and keep your unsolicited criticism of their car under wraps. We all know it's not a "real Model T" and Bill doesn't pretend it is either, but guess what, we don't give a damn.
Car was definately Bills '26 Coupe. Later model ford front and rear ends with 4 wheel juice brakes and small flathead V8. Yes, not original model t anymore but tastefully done and beautifully presented. I had a long chat with Bill about his car and he was joking with me about me wanting to build something similar. I was in awe of a man who has restored more than one Stynoski winning car,served as a National Model t club president and still attends tours . Great job Bill, it was one of the most photographed and talked about cars on the tour. Glad it wasn't left in the car lot and hidden away.
Now I really wish I had a chance to go over it carefully and see all the details. Even if I wouldn't want to make one, I always love to see interesting feats of technical know-how.
Warwick, thanks and how is the rest of your USA trip going?
I am looking at the top of the page. It says "Model T Forum". I am a member of the Model T Ford Club of America. This is not a street rod club. I have every right to say that I don't care to read about hot rods or street rods here. It makes me sick when people chop up a Model T and make it into a pile of poo like that. Please tell Bill Barth I said that. He's a nice guy and he will understand. I've never met his wife.
Honestly, the moderators should delete threads about street rods like this one. This is not part of the Model T hobby, it is in fact the death of the Model T hobby.
My folks just got moved into a nursing home in the past month. For the past couple of years Dad has not been able to drive a Model T. He and Mom parked their 2006 Crown Victoria in handicapped parking for the past several years. A 2006 Crown Victoria is not a Model T either.
Every chance I can I give my folks a ride in a Model T or a Model A. I drove my dad to 12 monthly Lone Star Model T meets last year.
This is just a silly question, but if a person took the engine out of a 2006 Crown Victoria and replaced it with a Ford 429, would it no longer be a Crown Victoria?
Good question Chuck... now I'm not sure if the other car in my garage is a 1969 Chevelle or a 2000 Camaro.
It's probably a Camelle.....
My Dad had a Model B pickup and the engine crapped out. He replaced the B engine with a Model A engine. What was it, then?
I totally agree Royce. It seems every day I read here about someone chopping up genuine Model T cars. I'm starting to wonder how many real ones are left. Carving up the most important car in history for short term performance gains is a crime. How will the next generation learn about the historic Model T when they can't find one that doesn't have for wheel disk brakes.
I, for one, am glad that this forumís moderators don't butt in a lot. MOST of us are able to decide within a couple of posts on a thread if it is something that we are interested in. I skip a lot threads because they simply don't interest me. I also read some that have topics with information or ideas that I would never undertake but have interesting technical information in them. I guess I could add snotty negative feedback on each of them but if ALL of us did that this forum would not be the wonderful free exchange of ideas and/or information that it has become. If you donít like the thread then put your big girl panties on, click on the next thread and butt out. The only threads that have been deleted took nasty turns with name calling by some of the posters on this thread. If you don't like the topic then what is so hard with ignoring it? Censorship is never healthy in any discussion. I doubt that I would ever put a Model A front end under a T but what the heck, some of us are capable of reading about it, or ignoring it, without blowing a gasket. This forum would die if the narrow minded had their way.
There are no real ones left. Mine is fibreglass with original mechanicals.
I don't see any evidence that this car was "cut up." Some parts were unbolted and others replaced them. No harm, no foul.
Are we really concerned that someone modified the most modified car in the world?
I have seen a couple of these modified Model Ts around Houston and one in Dallas. They were all tastefully done by expert mechanics and retained all the charm of a car equiped with stock equipment. The cars were not misrepresented as being pure stock. I do not consider them hot rods in the sense of a chopped 32 Coupe. Sometimes we forget that this is just a hobby...
If you care to reread my posting, you might notice that I never attempted to take away your right to say anything, nor would I ever. I was suggesting that perhaps you could show some deference for the owner and his situation, if not for the car itself. Apparently you can't. Fine. So be it.
It was not the topic of my comment but, I happen to agree with you, with respect to modifying Model T's. It makes me sick too. If it makes you feel better in the slightest, there is very little damage/modification done to any T parts in Bill's car. He is a true craftsman.
Sorry to hear about your parents Royce. I'm glad they can still enjoy the hobby with your help.
I guess I feel that the people involved in this hobby are far more important than where somebody chooses to park their car.
I think you missed my point. That being that the MTFCA Forum is a place for members and non members to discuss Model T's and their upkeep. I have a right to be indignant when garbage wagons that desecrate a perfectly good Model T become the topic of discussion. Anything that has no Model T parts in the driveline is not a Model T. It is completely against the goals of the national club.
I don't want to read about that and as a paying member of the MTFCA I have a right to say that I don't approve of it. The guys running the tour can do as they see fit - that's not my business. I don't have to like that either, and I am welcome to my opinion, as you are yours.
O.K., I understand your position. Please have a good day.
Many decades ago, I bought a pristine 57 Pontiac 2 door hardtop. Had 47,000 miles on it. During the time I was the owner, I chose to desecrate it by using some J-bolts to lower the front end a few inches. When it came time to trade it in, the dealer didn't like the lowered front end. I removed the J-bolts and VOILA! instant un-desecration. Simple.
I am convinced that this model T with the later running gear can be similarly un-desecrated by a future owner. If not, call me and I'll do it for you.
I'd love to have a "T" built like that one... it would be completely daily-driveable with modern traffic, yet still retains most of the look and charm of a stock Model T.
It wouldn't necessarily be my choice of tour car for participating in "Model T"-only events, but I'd drive the wheels off it as a fun cruiser for when I want to drive something fun but don't want to take all day to get there.
In all honesty, I'd drive my T a whole lot more if it was more practical and convenient. This, to me, is simply a practical and convenient version of a Model T.
How many threads have there been on this forum about non-T cars? I can think of ones about Franklins, Paiges, Studebakers, Dodges, and even (God help us) Chevys. Most of us here are interested in cars other than Model T's, and I for one enjoy reading and learning about them. Those threads apparently didn't get anyone's undies in a knot, even though they are not Model T-related.
I also enjoy seeing well-done Hot Rods. Not Street Rods, but good old-fashioned post-war and 50's kinds of Hot Rods. And I don't mind seeing them here occasionally.
Bill Barth's car is nothing like the one Boyd Coddington butchered. I think we all were appalled by that unfortunate turn of events. But as Chuck said, and I alluded to earlier, Bill's car can be returned to bone stock with little effort if someone decides to do that later on. Again, no harm, no foul.
So where's the problem? If Bill were trying to pass his car off as an unaltered Model T that wouldn't be right, but I have no evidence that that is what he does when he drives this car. I know Bill well enough to know that he has more integrity than that.
Bill is a past president of the MTFCI and has restored Model T's which won the coveted Stynoski Award. There is little doubt of his qualifications as a top-notch Model T'er. Does that mean he can't modify one if he wants to? Of course not.
If you come across a thread you're not interested in, just skip over it. That's what most of us do, and it causes no disruption to the Forum. Disparaging someone of Bill Barth's stature because of the way he built one of his cars has no place here.
Mike said it better than I did.
The difference is that all those other threads are about cars that are interesting and complimentary to Model T Fords. A Model T that has a modern engine, transmission and rear end substituted for the original parts is a chopped up travesty.
The MTFCA is dedicated to the history, maintenance and restoration of the Model T.
Our club is not dedicated to scrapping all the original components so that a pile of crap that looks sort of like a Model T can pollute our club's purpose.
C'mon Royce, quit beating around the bush. Tell us how you REALLY feel! Dave
Have you started any threads?
As often as you post, I hope you have, but I don't recall any. Of course, I only click on posts when the title interests me, so I don't read a large percentage of threads.
Still, as often as you criticize other posters, I don't recall you actually starting a thread with information or topics that others would be interested in.
I appreciate you attacking me on a regular basis. Keep up the great work! It would not be interesting at all if everyone always agreed with me or you or anyone else.
I searched a few minutes and found these. If you have lots of time you can find I've started and contributed to lots of threads.
"I appreciate you attacking me on a regular basis"
That's the pot calling the kettle black.
Not much fun, is it?
I should have checked your "references" first. You listed two threads from 2009, one from 2011 and one from 2012.
With all your posts, that's it for threads you began? A better question might be, how many posts you've written are divisive, or belittle the original poster or a responder?
Rob, Why are you picking on Royce. If you want to know what is allowed ask Royce. 15 Million Model T,s had cast iron pistons cause thats how Henry perfected his engine. But Royce will run a modern piston in his cars. So if you want to know the rules by Royce just ask him before you do anything to your car.
With that said I think that Royce is full of info that most only wish they knew. He has a good heart and will post info for anybody that ask,s. I just wish that would lighten up a bit on the good folks here. So cars are missing so many parts it is tough to get it back to "All as Henry put it together". Some dont have deep pockets and make do with what they have or can find to keep these old buggys rolling. I would love to have a perfect car and Iam getting a barn find over the weekend. I hope to keep all of Henrys bell abd whistles on. But Iam not rich and Iam going to drive the car with what I have till I can get it "right".
We are all fine folks here. Some have bigger hearts that others but we all have love for one another so lets show some. Scott
Yes, Royce is "full of info". However, there comes a time when enough is enough. He also jumps into threads, many times with incorrect and obviously knee jerk comments. The "Chevrolet" thread comes to mind quickly, but there are many others.
When called on misinformation, he often attacks the poster(s) and doubles down on his position.
I'm just tired of it, however, as he is quick to point out, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I apologize for hijacking this thread, that started out as an interesting search for information about a Model T with A front end (as a method to use front brakes on a T).
How many Model T related posts have you responded to with information that is relevant? How many times have you got someone back on the tour when their Model T was broken down in the parking lot, or on the side of the road in 100 degree weather? How many Model T parts have you shipped to Russia, Norway, Australia, or Africa? How many times have you spent all evening on the phone on your nickel helping someone you've never met or heard of determine if they bought a fake 1909 touring built by a guy in Canada without using any 1909 parts? How many times have you demonstrated how to properly adjust a Model T clutch? How many times have you straightened a Model T exhaust manifold for a friend? How many times have you demonstrated how to grind non adjustable valve lifters?
Uuuh, never mind.
As a experiment I tilted the king pins on my '27 T front axle to 9 degrees. I cut a wedge out of the top part of the I beam, hot bent to lower flange, and welded it back up. I then made new spindles from 4140 billet incorporating brake mounting flanges with a 11 degree tilt in them. The king pin now projects to the middle of the tire patch on the ground. I then removed ALL the caster. The car handles like a dream using stock T steering. In reverse there is no tendency for the wheels to kick to the side. I also added cable mechanical drum brakes (7" diameter). Virtually nobody realizes the kingpins have been tilted unless I point it out. As far as I know my cable operated mechanical front brakes would even qualify for the Santa Clara speedster run.
Personally I don't really like the look of that late front axle under a otherwise stock T and it is unnecessary to get good handling AND stopping (even on wet roads).
Do you need front brakes if you drive T speeds? ALMOST always you don't. But when someone pulls in front of you and they assume you can stop as good as they can, well I don't feel like wearing a Hyundai SUV!!!
That's the difference. My posts don't attack others (other than this one). The people I interact with on this forum, and in the hobby, don't need to keep score on whether I've helped them or criticized them. It shouldn't matter.
No matter how much "good info" you provide, nor how much "good will" you give, it's lost when you attack others for no reason. All the good works in the world are insignificant if you randomly attack others, apparently for some self satisfying reason.