Anyone know if, generally speaking, the late brass era front axles tended to have the T-202 on them? My '14 has the TW forging mark on both sides but no script or part number.
where would it be?
That's a fairly typical 1914 axle. Probably in 1916 or 1917 the TW axles started to have Ford script.
The other typical axle used in 1914 had DB script and the part number.
I have a Cleveland Hardware in my 7/3/14 I wonder how much DB stuff was used in 1914? Bud.
Bud -- from a previous posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/27105.html?1175704778 we have:
According to Trent's research, the last contract with the Dodge brothers was dated Jul 1, 1913 and expired Jun 30, 1914. I think for a Jun or earlier 1914 Ford having DB made items would be appropriate, and of course items delivered on 30 Jun would have been installed in Jul or maybe even a little later if they were stored for a while. Trent shared that contract can be found in Acc. 95, Box 1, Folder A-12: Agreement between Ford Motor Co. and Dodge Bros. 1913 at the Benson Ford Research Center.
A big thank you to to Trent for sharing his research.
For those who are wondering what items to look for the DB trademark on, Trent shared:
Specified in the contract were the drop forgings Dodge Bros. would supply to Ford. Here is a list of those forgings and the prices they would be paid:
Factory # Description Price
T-45 U-Joint Knuckle Male $0.14
T-46 U-Joint Knuckle Female .17
T-202 Front Axle 2.7547
T-203 Spindle, R.H. .37
T-204 Spindle, LH .37
T-487 Connecting Rod .20
T-498 Crankshaft 2.00
T-801 Crankcase Ft. Support .1247
T-854 High & Low Pedal .1433
T-1017 Dash Bracket, LH .09
T-1018 Dash Bracket, RH .09
T-1301 Gas Lamp Bracket, Rt .1418
T-1348 Gas Lamp Bracket, Lt .1421
T-4323 Brake Pedal .1321
T-4324 Reverse Pedal .1320
Now we have a list of all of the different drop forgings on which we
should find the DB trademark.
In addition to these steel forgings, the Dodges provided three major
assemblies for the Model T.
Steering Gear Assembly $ 4.39
Rear Axle Driveshaft Assembled 12.6883
If someone reviewed the contract and compared how many of a certain item were ordered compared to how many cars were produced it would give you a better feel for what percentage of the production would have Dodge parts on them. Note I do not know if many of the previous Dodge Brother contracts ran from Jul 1 to Jun 30 or if they may have run for some other period of time. If they were only done the Jul 1 to Jun 30 then it would have been the last and only contract Dodge Brothers were supplying parts for. But if they also had some 6 month or 12 month contracts that started on a different month then it might be possible the during 1914 Dodge Brothers had more than one contract with Ford. I.e. several contracts running concurrently. If anyone else has some additional insight on that it would be appreciated.
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My favorite bit of information there is that the brake pedal costs a hundredth of a cent more than a reverse pedal.
If Dodge delivered a rail car full of front axles on July 30, 1914 would Ford have melted them down the next day for scrap?
I am pretty sure the end of the Dodge Brothers contract would not have been the last day Ford would have installed the parts. I know from existing examples that a few Dodge parts were still showing up in production as late as the end of the calendar year 1914.
Thanks all. My car is mid-August so I've never felt it "should" have a DB axle, but I've wondered about the one that's there. I was pretty sure it was correct, so I spent time and money on getting it aligned and usable. Revealing how much I spent would probably get me kicked off this site; openly insane posters are screened I think.
Hap, I can add another DB marked item to the list: the transmission clutch drum. I have one.
Just caught the "transmission assembly" in Hap's posting; no doubt many Dodge-made tranny parts carried the logo.
I have a hogshead on my '13 roadster that was assembled in April of '13. We all know the hogshead could have been replaced sometime in the past 100 years, but what is interesting is the pattern for the diamonds on the clutch pedal. There are fewer diamonds in that pattern than the reverse and brake pedal. My theory is possibly Ford had already started making parts by then? There is only a part number on the pedal.
My 1912 front axle
Ref your question, “If Dodge delivered a rail car full of front axles on July 30, 1914 would Ford have melted them down the next day for scrap?” I suspect Henry Ford’s response would have been based on several factors – some are listed below.
On the one hand Henry Ford was fanatical about saving money and using older parts. For example the shipping documents indicate that 1910 style running boards were used on a number of cars manufactured in Jun 1911 [ref page 497 Bruce McCalley’s “Model T Ford” available reprint from the club at: http://modeltstore.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/model-t-ford-the -car-that-changed-the-world also on CD with several other titles at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/333725.html?1357665853 ].
On the other hand he had a temper and there are cases where he willing lost money to make a point or to “get his way.” For example on page 140-143 of “Tin Lizzie” by Philip Van Doren Stern where they have the oral testimony/recollection of George Brown. Mr. Brown recounted the story of Henry Ford’s reaction to the car Edsel Ford and the engineering depart had created while Henry Ford was on vacation to Europe. Not only did Henry Ford rip the car apart, he had the company cancel all the orders for the related parts the following day. On page 143 Mr. Brown shares the different companies he called and how they all commented how much cancelling the order would cost Ford. But they were cancelled. [Note “Tin Lizzie” appears to be available as a reprint now. Has anyone seen a copy of it and is it a good quality reprint? Also there were several used copies for under $13 – I really like that book – although there have been several new discoveries / rediscoveries since it was published in 1955.]
Another factor to consider would be how was the contract worded/written? Did it specify the parts had to be delivered by a certain date? And if so, if that date was before Jul 30, 1914 – I suspect Ford would have sent the parts back, if the arrived after the required delivery date – just to spite the Dodge Brothers. But that is just speculation on my part. I’m hoping we can have someone review or photograph the contract [ As mentioned above Trent shared that contract can be found in Acc. 95, Box 1, Folder A-12: Agreement between Ford Motor Co. and Dodge Bros. 1913 at the Benson Ford Research Center] so we can get a better feel for what is says. Perhaps it allowed orders to be placed up until the end of the contract in which case an order placed Jun 30 would be delivered later. Again, I hope the actual contract will shed some light on that.
There may also be some records that indicate items were supplied by the Dodge Brothers and when they were delivered and/or paid for?
And the fossil record is still a very important part of figuring out what occurred. Having some known original cars with a well documented history can also add data points or areas to explore. A good example of that was the “pointy leaf front springs” that were often tossed away as after market replacements but because someone found one with a Ford script on the leaf – further research by John Regan found the documentation in the Benson Ford Archives that addressed when they were used in actual manufacturing. [Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/5633.html and http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/32555.html ]
Note the MTFCI Judging Guidelines 6th Edition [available from Russ Furstnow as well as the vendors] for the 1914 models has the comment: “’DB’ [front] axles used in early production” and “’DB’ spindles used in early production.” I’m always the optimist, but I believe if we could better document when the “DB” parts were typically used the information could either confirm the current guidelines or provide the data to recommend a revision to that area. Note – The term “early production” is a little vague and gives quite a bit of wiggle room for the “odd axle” found in the back of the factory area and installed on a new car. And of course if the axles were shipped to a branch assembly plant the installation date could be later. But the idea would be to help document what was typical and what were exceptions (such as those 1910 style running boards used during Jun 1911).
R.V. I believe your Aug car would fall out side of the MTFCI “early production” but Russ Furstnow could clarify that for you. I would also say that with the contract expiring on 30 Jun 1914 that having a DB part on an Aug 1914 could be documented as using up the remaining parts. Again Russ Furstnow would be the person that could give you (us) additional guidance on that assumption of mine. And as pointed out by others – replacing parts on a car to make it “more correct” sometimes is counter productive.
One of the things I greatly appreciate about the forum is we can share information so much more easily than just 15 years ago. As each of us shares the pieces of the puzzle we know about or the questions about the puzzle pieces etc., the more likely we will find additional information about the cars and how they were produced.
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One interesting thing about the car is that while the engine casting date is 4-22-14, the engine wasn't assembled (and presumably didn't go into a car) until August 11. The only DB parts on it were (are) the clutch and reverse pedals.
Also, the car came with a speedometer; according to Russ Furstnow, if it did come from Ford that way, it was one of the very first ones.
Our 7/3/14 touring has a speedometer but i don't have a clue? Bud.
Confused.......speedometers were standard on Model T's from 1910 through mid 1915. There was a period during 1914 when Ford had a speedometer shortage and a policy was initiated giving a rebate for cars delivered without speedometers. During this time speedometer installation was hit and miss (from my limited understanding of the situation). I can't picture how your car could be one of the first ones with a speedometer. Or the last ones.
Fellows, In Australia I have found brass steering spiders and steering column quadrants with DB stampings. I also have a steel steering spider with the same stamping.
Just for additional interest.
Allan from down under.