Pre T Ford and pretty women-Photo

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Pre T Ford and pretty women-Photo
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Monday, August 05, 2013 - 10:04 pm:



Delightful


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Monday, August 05, 2013 - 10:22 pm:

Very clear picture too. That looks like a kitten in the one girl's hand. I guess it didn't understand "Don't move, 1-2-3-4". :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, August 05, 2013 - 10:30 pm:

Is that a pre T the women are in? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, August 05, 2013 - 10:40 pm:

Herb,

Any additional details available?

Appears to be a modified Ford Runabout Model N,R or S with the turtle deck removed and a tool box installed. It does not have the Roadster cowl but that could of been replaced. And they have added short doors to the front.

The rear fender bracket appears to be the same style used on the early Ts and that would date the car more towards 1908 (possibly later 1907) and the body is the later 1907-08 that has the top buggy rail go up around the seat top rather than having the top irons come through the back of the seat.

High/low shift lever also seems to have been replaced. It appears to have a button on top which the original did not have. It also appears to be straight while the original shift lever had an obvious bend near the top of the handled to make it easier to grasp.

The hood also appears to be hinged and the N,R,S, and SR were not.

Disclaimer -- could they have put the N,R,S or SR steering column in another chassis? I do not know of another planetary steering gear used on a non-Ford car. But from that photo I cannot see the running gear etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, August 05, 2013 - 10:52 pm:

Very beautiful girls. It appears to have a T hood and firewall and has a Model T steering wheel and gear box, but the lever is on the outside. With the right hand drive do you think the negative was reversed upon developing? Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 12:05 am:

Jim...

A couple bits of evidence suggest the image was not reversed upon developing.

1. There is a squirmy kitten in the photo.
2. The little girl appears to be holding it with her right hand.

Since most people are right handed one could - at least - make a guess the girl was right handed as well.

It would be likely she would be holding that creature with her dominant hand.

Also, it's a really nice photo - Probably taken by a pretty good photographer at the time. My guess is he would not skip over the emulsion to emulsion rule.

Just tiny bits of evidence. Unfortunately, there is no writing I can see.

Michael


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 12:20 am:

If you could manipulate the image so you could make out the numbers on the license plate on the windshield filler board, you could tell if the negative was reversed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 12:20 am:

BTW,

Here is the image reversed....it is much less effective to my eye this way.reversed


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 12:45 am:

Erik...this is the best I could do with the license plate. Not much help.

But let me add...we like to see moving objects - even potential ones - going from left to right in a photo. If the photographer had his choice, the car would have been as it was in the original- pointed left to right ( as we read)

Again...skimpy evidence. But, fun to speculate.liscense plate


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Martin, Sydney Australia on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 01:02 am:

Just as an aside that may be relevant, if this is indeed a pre' T, Ford cars before the T they were all RHD, so the image is not reversed.

Peter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 07:19 am:

It appears as if there are round knobs on the ends of the spark and throttle levers which would not have been a feature of a T. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 08:30 am:

Early T's did have round hard rubber knobs on the end of the spark and throttle levers. I think the NRS cars had them too.
I think that the button Hap sees is a glare to the camera.
When I first saw this photo I thought it was a NRS Ford that had the rear turtle deck removed and replaced with a tool box like on a 1912 Torpedo.
I also think it is a car that has been modified with a windshield.
Can anyone guess what the black tube like thing is coming up under the steering column?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 01:34 pm:

It's a Model R or S Ford that has been modified as Hap describes. I say R or S because of the fender which I think is an S style. It's not a Model T steering wheel or hood. I don't believe the hood is hinged but instead there is an odd reflection from the bend in the hood that kind of makes it look as if it is. I agree that the shift lever is missing it's usual frontward bend which is odd, yet I believe it's the standard lever. I agree with Herb about the button issue. Any NRS car with a windshield has been "modified" as they were not standard equipment.

Cool photo! Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 01:55 pm:

I believe the photo is reversed. The Stewarts have their trip and re-set on the right side.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 01:59 pm:

I believe the photo is reversed. The Stewarts have their trip and re-set on the right side.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 02:02 pm:

It's not reversed, it's a right hand drive "NRS" car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 02:02 pm:

Well, it is not a double exposure like my post.

grin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 02:05 pm:

Ken,

Excellent!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 02:06 pm:

Or,

!tnellecxE


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 08:32 am:

I looked Russ's speedometer book and the Stewarts have a "shaft" type re-set on the left side of the 1908-10 style. I should have looked there before I jumped. I can't tell for sure because the photo isn't that clear. However, the lever that can be seen has no brake release.

Could it be that this is a two lever RHD drive Ford T? Most photos I have seen (which is not many) would put the brake handle behind the girl on the running board and the second lever forward.

Ken


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 12:34 pm:

Ken, I don't know early Fords at all, but didn't the 2 lever Fords have the levers inside the body?

I bet a two lever T which was RHD would be pretty rare... more rare than a left handed wiggly kitten?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 01:39 pm:

Here is the license plate stretched out a little. Seem to be able to make out some numbers on the as posted version and the reversed one looks backwards. My guess is that the original posted image is as it was taken.



Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 02:44 pm:

I'm gonna hazard a guess and say it's a 1907 Ford Model R, that's been retrofitted with a windshield, tool box, and doors.

1907R


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 02:57 pm:

can anyone tell how the shirts are buttoned? Womens shirts are buttoned backwards from mens shirts. mens are R under L and womens are L under R... just a thought


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 02:59 pm:

women also wear belts backwards. I personally dont think this one is flipped


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 03:08 pm:

The clothing also dictates that it's somewhere between 1906 and 1910. This would have been the latter portion of the "Gibson Girl" era, when women went from wearing swan-shaped corsets to straight corsets under shirtwaists, with a man's fold-down collar and necktie.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Watson -Florence,Colorado on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 03:19 pm:

William,
Great Photo!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 03:28 pm:

I see what looks like a 2 and a 3 on the reversed picture. The woman standing wears her belt like I wear mine. The loose end is to my left side of the buckle. I think the original post was reversed.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 04:28 pm:

To me the body under the seat looks different from that in the '07 R photo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 05:21 pm:

The photo is not reversed. The first five digits of that plate are 71849.

It also appears that the plate is of the raised numeral type, which from what I've researched began showing up in 1914 or so....I don't think you would be able to tell what the numbers were if the plate were straight porcelain.

The car is not a Model T of any kind. If it's a Ford it is pre-1909. We are assuming the car is a Ford....I believe it to be a Ford, but it's not a Model T, and ALL FORDS before the Model T were RHD were they not???

And if it's not a Ford, then what the hell is it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 05:36 pm:

Let's go further: research and you will probably come up with the conclusion that servants dressed wealthy people (specifically women), and that the servant would want the buttons on "their" right, since 90% of people are right-handed.

However, although these people appear to be well off to afford a car, they may not necessarily be "wealthy" enough to afford dressing servants. The woman standing probably buckles her belt like I do, which is with the tongue to her left side, because she's right handed, like most people, and the right hand is the tightening hand.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 09:44 pm:

Ken,

There is no brake release on the lever of an NRS Ford. Especially on that lever, which is the clutch lever and has nothing to do with brakes.

Terry,

Yes, the body under the seat does look different as it's been modified when the turtle deck was cut off and the doors were added.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 10:03 pm:

I think what appears to be a "button" on the end of the transmission lever is actually just a reflection. It looks like an NRS to me. The most successful and best selling car of the 1906 - 1908 era, it would be the most likely car to be photographed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 01:18 am:

The steering column is definitely Ford NRS. The shift lever is not. And the button is not a reflection.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 07:21 am:

It is definitely not a shadow, but might not be a button either. Looks like a design feature of the lever handle just for looks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 07:28 am:

Maybe Ford had different suppliers for the lever?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 08:17 am:

William,

Minor correction. Note, the Model R Runabout and the Model S Runabout are so similar that Ford used the same side illustration for both cars in the catalogs. See below:



I’m 99% sure that the photo you posted is a Model S Runabout bodied car and not a Model R Runabout bodied car. If you have a photo of the same car that shows the rear deck more clearly, that will clarify it completely. But based on the way the rear deck appears to arch in away from the rear fender as it goes towards the back I believe it is a Model S Runabout rather than a Model R Runabout. Below is a zoomed in shot of the rear deck and you can see it is going for a pointed deck like the Model N and Model S Runabouts had rather than the rounded rear deck the Model R Runabout had.

pointed deck

The photo you posted does show the unique NRS & SR steering column to dash bracket that is on the engine side of the firewall and also has a ledge to support the hood.

restored steering column bracket

The original photo of the car with the girls also has that same steering assembly and bracket.

old photo steering bracket

A few extra inches of the car showing in the photo would have shown the details we needed to confirm it is a Ford. It clearly has the NRS & SR steering column and most likely steering wheel (same design steering wheel spider as early Model Ts). It has the NRS & SR steering bracket. But all of those could have been transplanted if the column was swapped out. But the lever on the right hand side along with the way the seat area is adds some questions. I’m still not sure if they added the NRS & SR steering column to a different car or if they changed the shift lever, body, hood, on the Ford car. Note the R & S Fenders along with the running boards are the same. And if an owner ordered the brackets, fenders, and running boards from Ford they would bolt onto the N and SR cars [would need to drill out a rivets that were filling the holes but very easy to do]. If I had to guess I would guess it was a Ford Model R Runabout or S Runabout (1907-1908) with a modified body and shift lever. But without additional information – I cannot know for sure.

If anyone would like an article on “How to ID an NRS Ford” please drop me a note with your e-mail and I will send one to you. Please put “Send NRS ID article” or something similar in the subject line and it will get read a lot sooner. You can click on my name at the beginning of this posting and it brings up my profile. My e-mail address is the third line down or you can send me a Private Message via the forum. The cars can be fascinating to study and are even more fun to drive. In the case of the NRS & SR they have 15-18 horsepower – a little less than a T but they weigh a little less than a T. Because of that they drive very similar to a T roadster with the clincher tires. The shifting is by the side lever and the gas and spark are like a RHD Model T – the opposite of the LHD Model T.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 09:20 am:

I notice the car with the girls has no cowl lights. Did cowl lights come on the car or were they an option that needed to be purchased separately? Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 03:22 pm:

Jim,

Good point. I believe cowl lamps were standard equipment, but headlights were not. My guess would be that this heavily modified car had head lamps that negated the need for side lamps, in the owner's thinking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 05:18 pm:

Hap,

The car in the photo I posted was for sale by Hyman, Ltd Classic Cars. It goes to a point in the rear and is not rounded, but I'm not sure why this particular car is labeled as a Model R.

Here's another which is labeled as a Model S, and has the same steering bracket you refer to:

model s


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 08:42 pm:

William,

Thank you for confirming the car from Hyman, Ltd Classic Cars has a pointed rear deck and therefore combined with the running boards it would be a Model S Runabout.

It is not unusual for the N,R,S & SR cars to be given the wrong year (some folks think all the N's were 1906 but they were produced all 3 years from 1906-1908). And as mentioned above even the Ford literature of the day used the same side illustration for both the R Runabout and the S Runabout.

I wish we had a photo that showed more of the car -- i.e. the radiator or running board brackets etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 08:59 pm:

William,

Thank you for confirming the car from Hyman, Ltd Classic Cars has a pointed rear deck and therefore combined with the running boards it would be a Model S Runabout.

It is not unusual for the N,R,S & SR cars to be given the wrong year (some folks think all the N's were 1906 but they were produced all 3 years from 1906-1908). And as mentioned above even the Ford literature of the day used the same side illustration for both the R Runabout and the S Runabout.

I wish we had a photo that showed more of the car -- i.e. the radiator or running board brackets etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 09:17 pm:

Reminds me of "Meet me in St. Louis."


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