The last couple of days, I've been tightening loose bolts throughout the car. I've driven my 1926 TuDor about 2000 miles this driving season and there is always loose parts. In fact, my overflow pipe for the gas tank has fallen off some where. My question is a simple one. There are two frame to firewall braces. This is an angle iron that has two bolts that connect the bracket to the frame. Both of these bolts have castle nuts and cotter pins in them. No problem here. The firewall connection uses two carriage bolts, lock washers and square nuts. These are the ones that were loose.
The question is which way does the carriage bolt go in? My logic says that the flat head should be toward the engine, because the bracket has the square hole in it. But then the square nut is on the behind the firewall and is difficult to get a wrench on the square nut. I don't have a 1/2" square socket. I suppose I could use a 1/2" drive socket backwards. Can I get a socket set that works on square nuts and bolts?
Try a 12 point socket. Maybe 5/8" or 11/16" or so?
As you assumed the round head of the carriage head goes on the outside facing the front, inside the engine compartment. Jim Patrick
On my 26 roadster those bolts had the nut on the engine side and the overflow tube was all buggered up from rubbing on the end of the bolts. I checked my 26 Tudor and the bolts on that side have the nut on the back side and do not interfere with the tube.
Does the steel fire wall have a square or round hole? If it too is square its safe to say install the carriage head back side with threads coming out to motor.
I can't see Ford assmembly men fussing to tighten on the blind nuts!
As is, you should be looking at the carriage bolt head with a clamp for the overflow pipe on the bottom bolt. Judges will never see locktite on fasteners unless they scope it with a U-V light! Invest in an 8 point socket set... ws
The hole on the firewall is round. I've been looking around on the the internet for 8 point sockets. There are some around but not many. I do use locktite and this is going to be the next application. Thanks Mike
The head goes to the inside for a finished cab look. Same as the harness clamp screw and the patent plate rivets. The holes in the firewall are square for the brackets or should be anyway. If they're round, someone drilled them out or twisted the carriage bolt through the hole.
The nuts should be hex head, not square for the brackets. There's a harness clip, with a round hole, that goes under the lower RH bracket nut.
And I think your brackets are backward. The flat side faces out. (There's a left and right bracket.)
Ops. Never mind. I see it's a 26.
But nuts are hex.
Mike - Sears sells 8 point sockets, and they will sell individual pieces so you don't have to buy the whole set.
The factory workers had the luxury of putting the bracket onto the body while it was off the chassis, not so much in the way and didn't plan for us to need to access them.
Ken, the brackets are right, will only go on one way. With the angle out, the flat with the holes will be to the inside in the air.
Well, I can certainly change these nuts to hex head, it will be easier to tighten. I realize that there is a right and left bracket, but I'm not sure what you mean that my brackets are backward. I think that I have them mounted correctly, isn't that what Dale said? I did try a 12 point on the square nut. The square nuts are actually 9/16", a 11/16" 12 pt is a little sloppy. I found a 17mm 12 pt socket fits pretty good. I'll change the nuts later. Thanks for the help. Keith, I'll stop at Sears. Mike
The brackets are correct for 26-27. That's what I meant by the retraction after seeing it's a 26. The brackets are the same as earlier years (metal firewall) but are reversed because of the wider body on 26-27. 23-25 have the flat facing out. Also, there wasn't a harness clip on 26-27 since the harness went over the engine. But the nuts were still hex.
There is also a small U shaped bolt that goes in the hole above the body mounting bracket this wraps around the overflow pipe and clamps it tight to the fire wall. Also there is as all set screw that goes in at the fitting where the over flow pipe mounts up into the gas tank outlet.
Here's a photo of mine:
Langs has the pipe and fasteners:
Fellows, I don't know about US practises, but in Australia square nuts are usually associated with coach bolts and timberwork. The head of the bolt goes to the timber side, with the square under the head pulled into the timber to stop it turning.
The square nut has a washer under it if fastening timbers, or just tightened against the metal if securing timber to metalwork.
On Ts sourced from Canada, 5/16" coachbolts were used to attatch running boards to the supports, fenders to the running boards, the firewall to the body and the steering column to the firewall. These all had hex nuts. The purists source 5/16" UNC nuts which are 1/2" across the flats, rather than 5/16" whitworth nuts from the local hardware shop which are a little larger.
Square nuts have disappeared in recent years and I collect them whenever I can to keep things authentic when making wooden coachwork.
Just for interest.
Allan from down under.
Those firewall brackets are not for a '26. The '26-7s are recessed a bit in between bolt holes. Dan Treace would probably have some photos of the correct bracket.
Larry is right. I just looked at my late '27 never-been-touched-matching-serial-numbers coupe and the brackets are recessed a little between bolt holes. Interestingly, the carriage bolt heads are toward the front on the RIGHT side and under the overflow pipe but are to the rear on the LEFT side. And, as much as it pains me to say it, Ken is also right with the hex head nuts on both sides.
This bracket is on my October 25 built Roadster.
And this is on my May 26 built Tudor
So maybe the recessed area between the bracket bolt holes is yet another difference between the MODEL year '26 and '27?
I lost my over flow pipe, it must have vibrated off on one of our recent tours. The last one I purchased was just some bent electrical conduit, so I'll try and make my own. The hardware ( the special screw and 'J' hook) is still there. My 1926 Tudor is an early '26, November 1925, so maybe the brackets are left overs. They were with the car when I purchased it, not to say that they were not changed at some time.
The part numbers for the 1926/1927 dash brackets appear to be 3640D right and 3641D right for a steel dash!
It is listed this way in both the July 1, 1927 parts list and the November 1, 1937 price list of parts!
Perhaps one is actually left and the other right!
I do not understand the recess between the bolt holes. Can you please explain?
Arnie, if you look closely at the last photo, you will see that the bracket is full width at the top and bottom where it faces the fire wall. Coming down the side that full width is necked down a bit so the face against the firewall is a little narrower. The recess starts about in line with the bottom of the top washer and finishes well above the bottom washer. I have no idea why such a minimal change was made to the design, nor when it may have been introduced.
Allan from down under.
My parts book (August, 1928) shows 3640D as the right and 3641D as the left. And it says they are for 1923 to 1927. (steel firewall) If there's a difference in the 26/27, perhaps it was just a production method change and not a differently formed bracket. That may account for bow in the bracket. (That I don't see.)
I'll contact Dan Treace and get him to post a picture of the correct brackets. I don't own a '26, so I can't do it. I probably have one in the garage somewhere, but don't know where to look!
Ive always been lead to believe that the 26-27 has square holes for carriage bolts. Make that overflow pipe out of conduit. LOOSEN the setcrew in the sediment bowl mounting fitting and tap the pipe up (WITH LOCKTITE) and re-tighten the set screw. THEN tighten the J bolt , again, with locktite on the nut. A sliver of inner tube or fuel hose on the bolt will also help it from sliding down from vibration.
Ive never seen a cushion between the bracket and body on a 26-27 model. ws
I found one!
Thanks Larry. That certainly is a dramatic difference. Is that cutout to save three ounces or is it there because of a firewall form on a 26/27 body? I don't see the necessity on a 26 Tudor.
There's quite a few parts in parts book that retro-fit previous years that are different than the factory original for a particular year. That sure makes it tough for the "point car" builders.
Thanks Larry for posting that picture. I now understand what you were talking about.
Does anyone know when the change in the bracket took place? Was it used in all improved vehicles or only in the 1927 model year or even in late 1926 and 1927 models? I am trying to make a list of all the changes in and between the 26 and 27 model years. So far I have not scratched the surface!
There seems to be many changes between 1926 and 1927 and also changes during the model year for these vehicles. I have never seen a complete list.
For example it appears that Ford added floorboard retaining clips sometime during the "Improved Ford" production. I have an early 1926 roadster that does not have the clips. I have seen other improved cars with the floorboard retainer clips.