I saw it mentioned in another thread about a T with a V8-60. I would like to compare notes with the owner.
I have this fresh rebuilt V8-60 on the shelf. I have considered various uses. I have this '21 T roadster in process. I have thought about putting a T transmission with the engine. With the right set of headers and one loud muffler and one really quiet muffler it would sound just like a 4 cylinder.
I know certain people won't approve (and I probably know their names). Somehow that has never bothered me. If you have something constructive (not negative) please comment.
I don't know much about such a project, but if you do decide to put your V8-60 in your T, doesn't that mean you also need to beef up the chassis, rear end, suspension, certainly the brakes, etc? It seems to me that it would be a much bigger project than just installing the engine.
I don't object, I just would have reservations about riding in a T with a V8 engine that did not have some other improvements to compensate for the additional power.
Good luck whatever you decide!
Les, i too would be interested in the specifics of putting a v8-60 in. Also interested in seeing your front brake setup if you have some good pics.
Next time you come thru, Les, we can introduce you to a v8-60 coupe in the Long beach club.
I've seen some pretty hefty v-8's in T rails in the good old days....Not so sure about the T transmission though.
My opinion, this topic belongs on a street rodder forum and should be deleted by the MTFCA webmaster.
Hey Les - I love T's but I also love hotrods. I have lots of questions about how it would work, and I'm really also just sort of thinking out loud here.
How would you make a housing for it?
You need the hogshead for the pedals, so I guess you really only need fabricate a bottom half, but then the main issue is connecting that to the engine . . . I guess a 26/27 hogshead might be easier because you have those 2 bolts up top. Still seems like the "bell housing" issue would be the biggest problem to solve. Maybe something like a short adapter from the engine crank to the T transmission to give you a little room for a bellhousing/adapter. My first idea is to take a T engine/transmission bottom pan and cut off the front engine part, then sandwich a plate between the pan and hogs head, then weld that to a flat plate that will be bolted to the back of the engine. I'm excited to hear what you decide to do.
Also, a T engine idles WAY slower and generally operates in a much lower range than that V8. I would think you would want all new transmission shaft and drums and make sure everything is super balanced out. Even then, isn't the base idle of that V8 way higher? You might burn through bands pretty quickly if you are always starting the car from a relatively fast idle. Continuing this train of thought, if it's really just a V8 in an otherwise T car, it might be a lot more driveable with different gears in the rear-end, more like 4.something to 1 instead.
Someone probably has a much more elegant solution, but here's a rough idea for the transmission housing - if you play with it some you could even have the magneto inside and run the whole thing on buzz coils and mag! You'd have 1 set of 4 coils in the box inside the vehicle, and 1 set of 4 mounted on the engine. Your normal distributor becomes just a commutator if instead of a single coil you hook the center wire up to ground!
Basically, the back side of the red plate would mimic the backside of a T engine, that way you can hook up mag and and secure hogshead. On the bottom I'd just weld the back half of the trans oil pan to the adapter plate. The only kind of hard part would be the two grey parts I highlighted, seals for the spacer between the engine and trans.
Hmmmm, somehow I screwed up the picture.
idea for V8 with T trans.bmp (193.8 k)
Fit it to a t oil pan & trans' for the lol.
Here's your picture Seth.
SWEET, thanks Fred! Green is hogshead, blue is bottom back half of oil pan. The transmission side of the red adapter will mimic the backside of a T engine, with a hole in the center just long enough for small adapter shaft to run from the engine to the trans. Other neat thing about this is that it keeps your trans oil and engine oil separate.
It'd also be absurdly cool to run it off of the magneto and coils. The transmission and ignition remaining the same would go a long way in keeping it 'T' just with some SWEET benefits of a 60 HP engine. If you gear the diff right, you can operate at pretty normal Model T speeds (and then some) but have the power to go up ANY hill in high gear. You could even have the whole thing operated with the hand controls for throttle and spark advance.
Seen one, that is a hot rod, as Royce notes.
The owner spent a lot of money and time, T frame is heavily modified with crossmembers, and running gear is later model, not T. Uses the V8/60 trans.
Was on an all Model T tour, and ran off on its own,....but later was on the vulture trailer, so oh-oh, getting silly with T's isn't always reliable.
The Vee Eight engine has 3 times the power and surely a lot more torque than the T engine. That means you need a frame to take it and a transmission and a rear end to match. It would make a lot more sense to find an A chassis with 4-wheel brakes, better axles, and then mount the T body atop of it. Yes, you would have a sliding 3-speed transmission, but would that be so bad?
Frankly my dear i don't give a poop! While it/they look nice i wonder about parts? Was/Were there about 3 varitys of V-8 60 made?
Here is the T V8 with a T body on an A frame on the right. It belongs to Duane Studer of the Long Beach Model T Club. On the Left is a true Model A
Put on 19" wheels with 475-19 tires, remove the turn signals, and you'd fool most of the people most of the time. A genuine black plate car, by the way, with a plate combination issued early in 1963. Two thumbs up for that!
I keep looking at the pictures but I don't see a Model T.
Les -- I had a good friend who was quite a bit older who restored many nice Model T's back in the 70's. He put a V8-60 in one of his. But I lived elsewhere at the time, and by the time I moved back he and his cars were gone.
Although I haven't built one (yet ), I would think it would be much easier to use a tranny compatible with the engine, rather than trying to mate the engine to a T tranny and/or crankcase. Working out the pedal arrangement would require some head-scratching, but I'll bet it's do-able.
You're knowledgeable enough to know that such a car would require a stiffer frame and more brakes, but I'm sure you're already going down that road. Good luck with your project and please keep us posted!
I like the blue touring but has the black car have a modern front end under it??Bud.
Model T hot rods usually wind up being a T in body only.
If I wanted to build a hot rod with an older Ford it would be at least a Model A.
I came to that conclusion in the 60's when I had the hot rod bug. The T's were just to light overall.
This is the only V8 allowed in a T, approved by me and Henry Ford
A V8 -60 block would be the nearest thing a fellow without casting equipment could get to use to replicate the above picture.Which I see as doable with the talents here.A timer could be setup as the "distributar" is on the T8 and a oil pan could be modified.I dont see makeing the crankshaft fit being a real issue,again for a machinist type fellow.
IF there was a serious issue with the trany as far as not fitting,you could replicate the Hemco trany setup and install it to the T8 replica.
I say go for it Les.Just keep it as T like as possiable.
And to,folks worried about the 60 hp twisting a frame.Mercy.My dad bought a 39 ford convertable.It had 30,000 miles on it.The fellow pulled the 60 out to put in a 100 and my dad told him to keep that weak a-- 60 hp motor.He told me they wouldnt pull them selves out of thier own way.
But the transmission is still in the shed down here.
He sold the 39 later to help buy this house.
I really like Kep's idea of mounting it to a T pan. All I have to do is make a the part to attach the block to the hogshead.
in regards to torque and HP etc.
The 60 did not have much low end torque, but about equal to a T at idle.
The idle speed is about the same.
Lots of T's run T engines with about 60 HP using the T frame, rear axle etc. Properly built these parts survive just fine.
The 60 weighs about the same as a T engine. They are a really small and light engine.
The 60 loves to rev so a 4-1 rear axle would be my first choice.
Front brakes would be a must in my book. If I go with my version it is very unobtrusive (even mechanical).
I have run the T transmission up to 4500 rpm with no problems. and that was with the cast iron flywheel. I did balance the flywheel and the drums and the output assembly. I used a Watts clutch and would again as it provides a "torque limiter" to help preserve the rear axle (if you stand on it too hard the clutch slips)!!
THe radiator does not pose a problem for me as I would probably just make a new one with 4 connections myself. Probably add a pressure cap under the hood. Maybe a electric fan to make it all fit nice. What the heck when you open the hood everyone will know it isn't stock.
I DO have a original accessory 3 speed sliding gear hogshead for T (26-7 style). Actually I have two different ones. The second one needs new gears so I could gear it up to better suit the 60!!
Thank you all for your comments
I know of two Model T V8-60 conversions in Texas, one in Greenville, one in Houston. Why not use the T transmission and a KC Warford? One would never know it wasn't a T engine without raising the hood. Seems like you could challenge some T speed enthusiasts and have some fun.
As to your topic on the Model T Forum, I say have at it.
A Model A block can be adapted to a Model T pan and T transmission. There are those T owners who run a A crank in their T engines now. Slingers on the flywheel will provide the A block with sufficient oil by modifying oil passages. The A gives 40 hp and the tork ratings are similar. Makes a great touring vehicle as hills are not a problem. I know of three. One my dad built which is in my garage now, one in Keokuk, Iowa, and one in Springfield, Mo.
I don't actually have a V860 trans. I imagine they are out there somewhere. Then i need to adapt the driveshaft. Do-able of course.
I like the idea of the real "sleeper". I do have a small drum Ruckstell but I don't think I would need it. The 60 will rev up just fine in first gear. I would probably use needle bearings in the triple gears. I believe Dan offers the suitable shafts.
The 60 is only about 140 cu in.
To me, oversize tires and modern wheels just are not compatible with original design and look of any car.
i like the original tire look. Might want to use a large brake drum axle.
With front brakes the small drum rear works just fine. I integrated the front brake operation with the original transmission brake. The front brakes do most of the stopping. Numerous of us have run front brakes and have figured out the level of bracing required that works (which is actually only to double the wishbone). The pan seems to survive just fine.
I might run 30x3 1/2 tires.
I love this idea....think it would be a fun retro fit, and a blast to drive
Now what I would love to do, is get my hands on one of these....
...and adapt a pair SR Fronty DOHC heads, 4 or 6 Winfield SR downdrafts..... the works
What did you do for your front brake setup....don't think I have ever seen pictures of it.
Thinking about adding front brakes to mine and looking for ideas.
I'm all for innovation, but someone has too much money and too much time on their hands. Just my 2 cents.
I already own the engine all ready to go (and have for awhile). Originally I was going to build a motorcycle with it. The conversion won't cost me very much money. Yes it will occupy some time. It would be a good use for one of my Bailey locking differentials.
here are some postings from the 2010 and 2011 forums
"My opinion, this topic belongs on a street rodder forum and should be deleted by the MTFCA webmaster."
I've got a suggestion, ignore it and don't post on it.
I say the same as Dennis just said above.
The sound coming from 4 cylinders of a V8 60 would not sound like a T.
It would sound more like a higher revving small bore short stroke 4.
I put a Dodge D-50 two liter motor in a T.
At anything above 50 it is just a loud hum. Does not sound good at all. Sounds like a 2 liter Dodge D-50. Even worse with a loud exhaust.
Kinda takes the fun out of driving it.
Dennis, agreed! Dave
Gosh, Aaron, your clients have some odd ideas.
But they pay right ???
Geo. n L.A.
For front brakes why not use some old small drum rear drums adapted to the front hubs? And i agree with clayton about the engine that is all ford T parts. Find 2 blocks with major cracks or holes from loose connecting rods in them and you will not have to feel so bad about welding them together. Might be a bit of work but you would have the only one like it.
My 14 Touring car is as original as it can be and I would not change that but sometimes you just want to go. I have a 26 T Coupe with a Z head, Stipe 280 cam and a balanced crank and transmission in it. It also has 4 to 1 rear end gears with a new KC Warford auxiliary transmission. A lot of power for the mountains but when you drop it into overdrive you can really cruse. On the first tour I took with the Denver T Club the guy behind me on the tour asked me at one of the rest stops if I had a Model A engine in my T! Per the tour rules I actually had to slow down to keep him in my rear view mirror. I think a T with a V8 60 in it would be a blast!
Bill Barth had one on the Canyonlands Tour in a '26 coupe. Neat piece of engineering, but it's not for me.
Aaron is probably right about the sound. Quiet muffler is probably the answer.
It would be easier for me to cast a new T/flathead V8 block as I could reuse a bunch of the cores from my 5 main block patterns.
If 5 guys want to get together and pony up some money we could take a run at it.
One of the issues that I am considering when it comes to using the T transmission behind the 60 is the location of the starter in relation to the block and particularly the left rear exhaust port. I think if I make a offset enclosed chain drive I can probably make it work MAYBE!
As long as you're casting something, how about copying the 400 ci four that has been documented so well by Rob?
Can you find the 5 guys that want to pony up some money?
Aw schucks, it all comes down to that, doesn't it, Les?
The big four would be a unique re-creation, while a T block V8 is not. The first V8 was done by the Ford dealer in Redlands or San Berdoo in 1915. Henry stopped him.
I have no personal interest in either one, but wondered if it has been considered.
I think I have found the transmission I will use. I have a Borg Warner T35 automatic from a '68 Cortina all rebuilt. I was going to put it behind a T block but have always been concerned about RPM/torque matchup.
Checking specs and measurements it looks like a ideal matchup for the V8-60. Probably use the Cortina starter (it is on the same side as the 60 starter).
The 60 block is almost a perfect fit to a T pan so the T trans idea would work to. Weld up the holes and redrill.
Can you fit a cortina transmission in the model T transmission area?
Yep. It is a longer of course, so it will be necessary to shorten the driveshaft.
20+ or more years back I saw a Ford factory (?) V-8 coupled to a T transmission in a Truck Museum somewhere north of Sacramento on I-5. I posted back then but never got any responses that I know of, it was touted as a genuine Ford product, Lord knows I wish I had taken pictures and gotten more information. What I do remember was that everything looked "right" and factory made, not a cobbled up mess.
While not a V-8, there may have been an eight cylinder Ford engine placed in a Model T crivetrain in the twenties. The following shows the experimental X-8 engine Ford developed in the early to mid twenties. The author says about twenty engines were built.
From the book:
Friends, Families & Forays: Scenes from the Life and Times of Henry Ford
By Ford R. Bryan
Sounds like an interesting project. I don't think it's too far fetched to believe V-8 (and any other engine) were placed in modified T drivetrains, since so many were available in the thirties and forties.
Whether or not the T chassis is able to handle the weight and power, in 1911-12 Ford was winning races with a Model T chassis racer using a 410 cubic inch four cylinder engine. The rest of the racer appeared to have a stock planetary transmission and rear end with truss rods under the frame for added support. This racer had a 2 to 1 diff ratio.
So I did a quick calculation. It you wanted to build the 400 cu in "T" 4 cylinder.
With a 4 1/4" stroke you need a 5 1/2" bore. It is quite possible to fit a A crank (4 1/4" stroke with 1 1/2" crank pins into a T pan. So stretching the pan would work there. I did not study your pictures much (busy with other things (not car related)). The easiest approach would be a aluminum fabricated crankcase (or cast aluminum). Then cast single cylinders. This would greatly reduce the pattern cost and ease the problems of making just a few cylinders. I believe the engine was side valve. If it was T head then I already have the patterns for a cylinder that would work.
If you can find some guys who want to put up some money I can participate.
I would go with 5 main bearings and counter weights on the crank. I would suppose that 60 HP would be easy, 100 HP more risky. Probably a shrink fit fabricated crank (like a lot of motorcycles use). The thing would be long, probably 1/2 again of a T block. Talk someone like Bill Stipe into making the cam shaft. Use a T front cover and timing gears.
Anyway just some thoughts. You just have to decide how badly you want it!!!
An early Dodge Bros crank would be more correct than Model A, and they may have built the original engine, anyhow. I've only seen one, but it looked much heftier than an A crank, IIRC.
If aircooling were ok, Lycoming O-360 jugs are almost made for the job. Jugs that aren't airworthy should be affordable.
Specifications (O-360-A1A)Data from Type Certificate Data Sheet E-286
Type: Four-cylinder, dual magneto, horizontally opposed, four-stroke aircraft engine
Bore: 5.125 in (130 mm)
Stroke: 4.375 in (111 mm)
Displacement: 361 cu in (5,916 cc)
Dry weight: 258 lb (117 kg)
Fuel type: 91/96 avgas minimum grade
Oil system: 8 US qt (8 l) dry sump
Cooling system: air-cooled
Power output: 180 hp (134 kW) at 2700 rpm
Compression ratio: 8.5:1
Is there a aircraft engine that is 5 1/2" bore or there about?
The P&W R-1340 is 5.75x5.75, R-970 series is 5.0" bore. I don't know of a modern(?) engine with bigger bore than the O-360. You can find them on wiki.
As to aircraft engines over 5.5"bore. I have often heard the statement that in air cooled aircraft application 6" bore is the absolute practical max since the heat to be dissipated is a function of the bore diameter squared and the area to dissipate this heat is a straight function of the bore diameter. A good example of this is the R-3350, of which I am familiar, which had a bore of 6.2" and suffered overheating badly. The R-2800 which was probably the best radial to come out of WWII had a 5.8" bore.
If you look at the drawing of the X8 it is a bit of a mystery as to how they were going to connect the con rods. On a radial aircraft engine you have the "master" rod and all the others pinned to it. They seem to show something resembling a "fork and blade". Various early V8 and 12's used this design including the famous Merlin aircraft engine. I have a 16 Briscoe V8 that uses a fork and blade arrangement. I imagine one of the problems with this one is oil leaking down into the lower cylinders when it is shut off and the risk of "Hydrualicing" the pistons which would be aggrevated by the "L head" configuration.
As to the BIG 400 cu in T I figure A rods. Try and find a stock piston in the 5 1/2" range for a GASOLINE engine (no diesels). The crank would not be that tough. Most of the money would go to making the cylinders.
Following are photos of the 410 cu in Ford T (thanks to Glenn Miller). It is at The Henry Ford but not on display.
Photos of the racer, courtesy of Glenn:
I think this would be an incredible Ford to recreate. Capable of 107 plus miles an hour, dual ignition, a wolf in sheeps clothing. Think how the motor would howl with the short straight pipes.
I wonder if it would be allowed within 5000 feet at a Model T show?
There are recreations, of sorts. Except for the engine, there are several replicas. See my profile.
I've seen your speedster/racer before (online), it looks great. Do you have a stock engine, or have you added speed equipment?
If you notice on the specs, Ford was running another car with 228 cu inches. I'm not sure which is at the Henry Ford, but the pics from Glenn appear to be the same as those of the 410 cu in racer.
The "228" could be made out of a stock T block I think. Just jam a 5" stroke crank in with t rods and special pistons. Actually I wonder if the pistons you can buy for putting a A crank and rods in a T block might just work. Put wrist pin bushings in the pistons and use T wrist pins. Crower could make you a really nice billet steel and counterbalanced crank!!
There would be NO extra room.
I suspect there is a limiting ratio of stroke to rod length. Longer stroke with short rods can waste power and wear out the pistons as the crank approaches mid-stroke. The A rods are proportionally longer than T rods, I believe due to 1/4" longer stroke. Chevy rods of the era are 7 7/16 vs. 7" for the T with same stroke.
I have been told part of the success of Toyota engines is their extra long rods. The Winfield 2 up - 2 down engine appears to have the centrline of the crank lowered to make room for longer stroke.
no doubt you are right. I doubt it was a great design and you don't see it referred to anywhere else
Les, if you could find one of those French Simca engines, they have a bolt on bellhousing like 8BA engines. It might be then possible to fab an oil tight flywheel area.
That is a great idea. Unfortunately I already have a '38 to '40 block all machined up. One of the alternatives I have considered is to rework a T pan to fit the 60 block. Alternatively to graft a T pan to the 60 pan. A advantage of this is the engine oil would be separate from the transmission oil. I have often wondered if the T trans wouldn't work just a little better in automatic fluid.
Quite a number of possibilities
Thanks for the comment, however you will notice that I said in my thread that there are *several* replicas. Mine is not the one you have seen featured online before. Perhaps there are more. Anyway, my engine features a Roof 16, Joe Morris custom crank, 8:1 pistons. It is now undergoing conversion from dual Stromberg 97s to a more authentic Zenith vintage carb(s) and Matco crossdrive magneto.
Regardless, looking at your profile, that speedster/racer looks great. I assume it is a good, and fast car. I've rode in a few speedsters/racers, and like a couple of our cars, you have the feeling of being "out there" with little or no body surrounding you.
If I were able to take on a project, it would be a light bodied (or no body) racer.
What year SCVMTFC endurance run was that picture taken. I recognize the location.
P.S. If you have pictures from past runs would love to see them.
That endurance run was about 1992 at the then Agnews State Hospital, San Jose/Santa Clara. The area has subsequently been taken over by Oracle and the run is still held there.
Yes, you are really *out there*...just like Kulick on those icy lake runs....the way it outta be.
we have an extra Model K engine. I'd really like to find a comparable driveline and make a racer.
Probably will never happen, but you have to have a dream.....
Rob, Duplicating that car... would be a totally a worth while project.
Get going :D
I agree, it would be a great project. Very likely, this is the last racer Henry Ford drove competitively. In the October 1907 article below, HF drove the Model K racer at the state fairgrounds for branch managers. Frank Kulick, Ford's ace driver then drove it a little faster on the track.
A couple of weeks later, Frank Kulick was again working the racer (reports said he achieved the record on a one mile closed track) when the racer wrecked and he was seriously injured:
I've found no further reports of Henry Ford driving a Ford racer for time.
There's that name again-The Christie front wheel drive! It sure would not resemble nascar's all the same high speed parking lot!Bud.
I was going to suggest that you start a new thread...but this wants to continue.
Rob...go for it. I support and encourage you to do it...since you have the engine. Everything else will be easy and fun. T frame rails...or better yet, TT rails. Perhaps a replica of 999!. Make the radiator out of refrigeration finned tubing..that was always my plan.
It has been a goal of mine to get my name on the big trophy from the endurance run. Closest I came so far was 5th.