you asked for it, Your getting it In final phase of completion and testing, an AFFORDABLE generator-alternator combination, looking for any constructive input on what qualities would be desired, the looks will be 100% an original model T generator, including a dummy cutout. would there be an interest in this type of setup?
You amaze me all the time, for the purist out there, now they can hide it. Great ideal!!
+1 Great work
Thx Yes 1 wire, same as Generator
Nice going! I've had that on the drawing board for some time. I wanted to add an oil pump in the rear area. I think it definitely has a place in the hobby, including Model A. 6v/12v options? Output?
first model T gear drive, first one is a 12 volt BUT def will make a 6 volt, output may vary , depending on demands, that is why I am asking what a person would prefer in those areas, instead of making what I want, am asking the crowd who uses them and abuses them LOL am doing now the FUN, part of abusing the heck out if it and see how it handles it always the fun part of the job HaHa
If you didn't want to get into the core hassles, I bet it would sell as a kit too. Just a thought.
Awesome idea! Replaces 100 percent of the original functionalitY.
True , but for cost purpose and actually original purpose, would be made to order, as send in your generator and a fast turn around, am doing my best to get as normal priced as possible, Just don't understand the 900 plus cost I have seen out there, want to make it a very reasonable cost for the average user , as an affordable option
Looks pretty interesting, what kind of amperage are you looking at producing?
Want one, need one soon! Interested in 6 volt.
need one also in 6 volt
How does the alt get cooled? That's the problem I've had with gear driven alts.
When an alternator dies, what usually goes first? Then second and so on?
I have the same question as Ralph. How does it cool? I guess the test phase will sort this out. If the external fan can be left in place and hidden from top view by the generator cover, leaving the bottom and engine side open may give enough cooling air flow.
Allan from down under.
You know I agree this is a wonderful idea but I don't understand how this modern device hidden inside an original device is so accepted,but the e-timer which is the same concept a new ,modern ,reliable device hidden inside an original device is so scorned. It seems to me it took a lot more time and engineering expertise to develop and is probably more valuable in helping keep more T's operational for years to come.Isn't dealing with an old generator and cutout part of "the Model T experience"
Cooling= the rotor has (2) internal fans, and venting(breathing) slots , if necessary, will be position 100% out of view, and additional cooling features will be added if truly necessary, This alternator is specifically designed for very small tight spaces, so that will help considerably . As for the Model T experience, I agree 100% with the fun and nostalgic value of the Model T , as we are even purist at heart, But the fact remains, there are more and more people using a model T beyond its originally designed features, and have even went as far as adding air conditioning and ect, to increase there comfort while enjoying there Model T, and with any added loads on there vehicle an alternator adds a lot of increased value to there electrical system. keep in mind, the original design of the generator and what it truly was asked to do, and at what time period? and with what systems on the vehicle? as Yes I am sure the generator can do many things most do not think it can do ,and many may truly not need any more than the generator can do, the fact still remains that an alternator can increase many areas of dependability, reliability and functionality, Especially with added features to the model T
Tom, I've experienced burned up stators. Putting cooling holes everywhere possible seemed to help. Mine have no cooling fan.
Daryl,this sounds like a great product to me.I am not a purist.I was just commenting how one good idea can be readily accepted and another equally good idea gets marginal acceptance or downright scorn when neither product detracts from the original look.
Tom, to your question, I have been in the auto electric business, most my entire life and had a father who was for the majority of his, also I worked as a technical representative for Delco Remy, mostly teaching classes and handling warranty reduction, meaning I have tested personally pallet loads at a time of specific units, I would have to say that honestly that question first TRULY needs to be addressed to a specific design(manufactured) unit. because they all have there different weaknesses, example fords especially early , meaning 70' 80'mid 90's had the weakest rectifier ever created, until (CS) BOB created the cs alternator , then especially because of its positioning on the engine (millimeters) to the engine, as even some in here have mentioned , burned up the rectifier and the little bearing more quickly than wanted, that is why you will see so many ads , broadcasting that there units have a larger bearing with higher temperature grease installed now and the rectifiers even have a special Cooling feature to them , so that was handled , Delco actually designed the CS 130 D a completely different design after discovering these problems, I actually asked CS Bob about why not just change the design on the first one , I was told by him and corporate minds that it was easier to create a NEW product than to change it, AS they said to change it was ADMITTING a mistake LOL I am sure some corporate Lawyer had a hand in that decision LOL as FORD did the same when so many of there alternators burnt down peoples Garages , especially do to the SLIP on connections failing so often , and even FORD starters changed there design on the solenoids , as so many had the SLIP on connectors , notice they all have a screw with a NUT again, As a former US NAVY Rescue Swimmer, (American spirit) I hate to admit that Nippondenso, Japan , dominated the market with there first starter to ever have ball bearings on it instead of bushings, and there alternators Honestly seem to be bullet proof, with by far the majority of there alternators only failing because of mileage on the brushes, as with domestic units having a wide array of failures like diodes , stators ect, these components barely made it to the brush life, not to mention the gear reduction starters nippondenso has that are a quarter of the size of a domestic units but producing triple the Torque , so it depends on what units your inquiring about, Sorry so long winded LOL
I totally agree George !!
Andy, to your question, the amperage can be as low as 40, or more, I am looking at different ideas, also looking into what is truly desired out in the user market, so input is appreciated
Daryl, I applaud your effort. While I doubt that I will ever be in the market for an alternator, it is good to know that it will be an option. The main thing that I don't like about an alternator on a T, or an A either, is that they just don't look right. I am not a purist as such, but I like things to at least look correct as much as reasonably possible. I rank this right up there with the E timer, a product that can help, but not detract, from the fun of these cars. That of course depends on reliability, which may or may not take some time to achieve. Good job sir. Dave
George - let me try to give an answer to that:
This product solves a REAL problem. Regardless of how well you dress up your original T generator, it will not be able to deliver more than 100 Wats = 16 amps. Just with decent use of electrical power for driving lights - it's hardly possible to be below 100 Watts.
Now - for the E-timer it really does not solve a problem that a proper restored T ignition system can have.
Daryl, it's good to see you have such an excellent background for this project. It should turn out well.
Since the gear driven gen in a T turns 1.3 times engine speed, and the typical belt driven alt turns about twice that, what is the output vs. engine RPM of this one?
Rick. this is the official, but definitely will do my own, and make adjustments if necessary
Awesome idea! Replaces 100 percent of the original UNRELIABILITY.
LOL. Model T starters are just about bullet proof. However, Model T generators were marginal from the start. (Pun intended) A Model T generator for all its bulk could barely deliver 100 watts of power when it was new. Add 100 years and then factor in a crappy trouble prone Electro/mechanical cut out and you have a recipe to "sling lead".
Cooling is an issue with alternators. If you can solve that in your looks like a generator/alternator then you have a good product that I would buy and I suspect that a lot of other T guys would as well but would not admit to it on this forum since they would be publicly berated by the un-appointed forum police.
That being said a quality rebuilt generator from Ron with a Fun Projects regulator will provide a T guy with many hours of trouble free performance as well. Daryl you have competition from the start!
OK, Make that "add 94 years".
George Harrison -
The E timer does not replace 100% of the functionality of a normal Ford or other Model T timer. The E timer only works on battery, a sort of "limp home" mode. The E timer is thus only able to operate at half the reliability of a normal timer, since the E timer operates only on battery, not on magneto. If your car has an E Timer and a dead battery it is not going to be driveable. This would not be the case with any other type of timer. Any other brand of timer has dual operating power, and typically operates on magneto. So the E timer replaces only 50% of the functionality of a normal Model T timer.
The Model T charging system is typically quite unreliable. If Daryl's new alternator that looks like a generator can charge the battery and be as reliable as an original Ford generator it will replace 100% of the functionality. This presupposes that Daryl has made adequate provisions for cooling, as others have mentioned, and that manufacturing quality standards are good.
I don't want to start another E-timer bashing session, but to answer your question from my point of view.....A charging system is a charging system is a charging system. They just charge a battery. In my opinion, that is just an ancillary thing that goes on behind the scenes. The model T ignition system is a rather unique system which is unlike most anything else when running on mag. It operates in a whole different manner than when on battery and from other cars. To me, it is one of the unique features that make a T a T. Unlike Royce, I am not hung up so much on the redundancy of having two systems (Although that is certainly a plus). I just think it is neat as hell how the original system operates. The E-Timer does not replicate that.
Generator...alternator....tomAYto.....tomAHto....as long as it doesn't look ugly under the hood, I could live with either one.
As long as one uses 21 cp. headlight bulbs along with a 3 cp. tail light , the standard Ford generator should keep the battery charged. Using any other cp. bulbs or extra lights will not give the same result.
21 cp bulbs along with good silvered reflectors were marginal even "in the day", and many makes used the 21 cp bulbs. Generator output capacity , storage battery limitations and technology advancements were what they were.... marginal. As long as you didn't drive at night, your battery would last longer ( questionable ) depending on the fixed charging rate the generator. Some daytime drivers drove with their headlights "on" , not to overcharge the battery... purely discretion on their part as a motorist habit of the day.
To some modern day T drivers, this is not acceptable.
Brighter candle power bulbs used with re-silvered reflectors need a better regenerating source to keep those lights in use and a fully charged battery.
Take a look at the " Bulb Current" postings, do the math according to your T's bulb useage, decide for yourself.
A decade from now the youth entering in the hobby wont have a clue what comprised an original Model T.
This is great if the goal is to modernize but conceal.
Its not good for preserving the car. Its just not.
I wouldn't really use the word COMPETITION , I would say another OPTION,(choice) as in an alternator would dominate the generator in every category of a competition of performance.
First obvious gain being a unit operating at such a high percentage of its designed ability for an extended period of time , compared to a unit being operated at such a low percentage of its designed ability for an extended period of time.
would be like asking a 94 year old man to carry a backpack of rocks up a hill and wonder why he was struggling compared to the young bodybuilder (athlete)going up the same hill while actually being lighter in weight than he originally weighed.
Do you have specs. on what a 6 volt unit would putout ?
Just to correct misinformation, the E-Timer can operate solely on magneto power. http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/368729.html?1371825622
The original ignition system was indeed unique to the Model T as Hal points out; a true electro-mechanical marvel worthy of preservation by those with the knowledge, skills and tools necessary to achieve and maintain proper operation. For all others, these represent obstacles from enjoying driving their cars. The E-Timer was specifically designed to eliminate these obstacles; hence the scorn from the former group in my view.
The stealth alternator does not visibly replace or alter the unique characteristics of the Model T so would expect it to receive less scorn from all but the purists who insist on originality (Except for the modern parts and accessories they deem acceptable of course :-)
For a direct replacement, I think it would be great. The owners would have to keep in mind that adding 40-60A or more capacity is not. The wiring would have to be considered as well as the switch and ammeter capacity. I look forward to seeing test results.
Your concerns are not unique.
In fact, they are a a bit of history. When the accessories came out during and after the Model T production, there were those who had the same worry.
Yee Gads ! Distributors, spark intensifiers, spotlights, Ethyl gas with No-Nox, multitude of aftermarket commutators, anti-chatter engine oil, balloon tires, demountable rims and others that did not come on their Ford from the factory at one time or another.
We have lasted all these years, with all these things that did not come on the original Model T, and we still know what a Model T was when it left the factory. ....
And just to add to Mike's post, The E-Timer is completely self contained in original Ford commutator housing.... no visible change from original system.
As long as the e-timer is mentioned, the car that had the most HP on the dyno at Kanab is e-timer equipped. This is shown in one of Erich's pix.
Getting back to Daryl's post, I too look forward to his new product.. Originality with added power.
Why would one want to drive around with a dead battery. That's why we have alt or gen
I put one of the first alternators (6 volt) on my '25 some years back, have never had a moments trouble out of it, which means it will self destruct tomorrow. Sorry to say I cannot remember who I got it from. In my opinion, batteries are the weak link, if I had it to do over, I would go 12 volt, those batteries just seem to do better than the 6 volt ones I get, they are good for maybe 6 months, and that is it. I carry one of the 12 volt jump start kits for emergencies, I have never had a problem using 12 to jump a 6, just use common sense. In days of yore in Company Cars and two way radios, we had Delco generators, monster sized, one could actually feel the engine pull down when you keyed the microphone, but they did a good job. I saw lots of those in the Service, again, seemed like all were Delco. I found a surplus unit and put it on my Jeep, worked very well, but again, in hind sight, I would go 12 volt now, simpler, lighter, cheaper. I like this idea of hiding it inside, but I think I can see a problem with heat, just my thoughts, and good luck to you Sir in your venture.
There is one distinct disadvantage to having an alternator rather than a generator. For an alternator to work, you must have a charge on the battery, with a generator, you can have a dead battery, and the generator will charge it
It may be reasonable to consider that you don't get something for nothing. An alternator putting out 1000 watts is about 1 1/2 hp and if it is 50% efficient that is pulling 3 hp from the engine. 3 hp is a significant part of a 20 hp engine.
I wonder if an alternator that would only put out a couple hundred watts (16 amps at 12V) could be used? It should be more reliable then a generator, generate less heat, maybe work with the existing wiring and still be twice the output if a T generator.
Maybe I'm an odd guy, but I don't see the need for an alternator on a Model T. The only function of the generator is to charge the battery, and it works fine for that purpose. The T unlike a modern car will continue to run indefinately on magneto and only needs battery for starter and lights. It will also run on battery if the alternator should fail.
So, what if the generator fails? Only on a very long tour does it matter. The battery can be charged from a battery charger and the car will run fine for a day trip.
Rebuilt generators are available and for cheapies, like me, used generators can be found at swap meets and parts swapped in the various generators to make one which works.
I have been on two tours now, where the gear came off the altermators of other cars which put them out of service. I'm sure those two were not the only ones which have had that problem. The way the gear attaches on those alternators needs to be improved.
Also, I think it just looks wrong with an alternator on a Model T.
Just my opinion. I'm sure others will agree with me, and still others will disagree with me. That's what makes this hobby fun!
I have no opinion on the goodness or badness of an alternator on a T. I am nonetheless impressed at the skill some among us as blessed with to design such things.
It does however strike me as interesting that these debates seem to rage the most over issues involving electricity. Timers, distributors, batteries, even light bulbs. All seem to evoke supreme angst amongst those who frequent the forum.
Pistons, cranks, cam shafts, seals, and pinion bearings seem less offensive. I find it interesting.
Steve, I think the subject of disk brakes can stir up similar controversy. I really dont't mind how they look(mine are Texas T Parts),I just want my car to stop under any conditions.
What I find really neat is the engineering, the innovation, the machining, the problem solving. I may not have one of these on my car, but I would not rule it out. There is a lot of creative thinking in this type of project. I think it's great.
Count me in for one, when they are available.
Mr. Becker must be a magician or he has cast a spell over Royce. The first time I have heard Royce commend a new device! Then he picks on Mike Kosser and the E-timer.
Didn't last very long did it?
An Alternator would have to be putting out 137 amps at a charging voltage of 7.3, which is the 6 volt system, to have the 1000 watts you mentioned, a 12 volt system would be at 14.2voltage and 71 amps to make the 1008 watts, I truly do not see that happening on a model T, as even the 60 amp alternators will not do that, and that is there MAXIMUM outputs, not there operating ranges. the alt I am including in the generator look a like is a 35-40 amp unit, maybe more in future if ever needed , but a baseline is 40amps, That is 292 watts at 7.3 Volts, and in saying that , A alternator will only put out what is asked of it by the battery, so I would say that at the normal 8-12amps or even to the maximum output of a generator 20 amps, which is 146 watts , I would Have to say that an alternator would possibly be even LESS of a draw on horsepower than a Generator.
that is sort of having Arnold Schwarzenegger show up at your house to move your furniture and you say No Arnold your to strong, you may hurt the furniture, I would rather have that skinny guy over there help me, THEY (Arnold and alternator) only use the power it is asked to use
The Gear coming off issue , Has never been made with all the units my father has made, with the screw on Gear, others may have this problem using the PINNED on gear.
A. gustof, yes that is true an alternator , ALTERNATES power and requires a battery charge. saying that, Do you really want to put an alternator or even a generator on a system with a dead battery? NO you do not, I can guarantee you will work very hard either system, as I have heard some say that an alternator will be destroyed if you run them on a low or dead battery. That is not true. first you need enough of a charge to even activate the alternator, and then it will only be over worked and YES definitely effecting the life of the unit, and possibly cooking the components if ran at such a high output for a very long time period, so YES nobody who is in the business wants you to over work and abuse the charging system like that to begin with, BUT I would have to say that a generator is COOKED a whole lot more than an alternator, specifically because of its low maximum capability and its ZERO cooling features,
First off, I really think the hidden alternator is great, I do not even have a generator on my car. I have had a number of times that I have started a car with a dead battery, I have two 1942 GPW Fords, and have on more than one occasion experienced a dead battery, once was a dead short, and a couple of times it was a dead brain that left a light on. I carry a 9 volt transistor battery with me, and it is easy to wire the 9 volt into the coil, and hand start the jeep with the ignition turned off, as soon as the engine is running, the generator with start to charge the battery. after a few minutes, I turn on the ignition, and it the jeep remains running, I can disconnect the 9 volt and I am off and running. This has saved me more than once away from home. As the GPW generator has a fan on it, the cooling is not a problem, but on a T, I can see that the advantage of charging a dead battery would be negated by the cost of repairing the generator.
The alternators which broke that I am aware of were pinned gears. The pin sheared off.
FWIW, at 292 watts and 100% efficiency, the alternator would require about 0.38 HP to operate. If it were only 50% efficient, it would use about 3/4 HP. That's assuming my math is right.
So far, my generator works fine (I have a Fun Projects regulator on it and no non-standard load except a musical horn).
However, I do see a need for a charger, be it generator or alternator, that puts out more amperage, for those who have accessories or lights that draw more current than the original setup.
If the best way to obtain more amps is an alternator, and someone has figured out how to hide one inside a generator's housing, I think that's splendid!
And if it can solve what I consider the two problems with an original generator - the difficulty of setting the third brush, and its tendency to fry itself if any connection in the circuit opens up, that's so much the better!
My electrician background, however, tells me that there is an inherent problem in simply replacing the original generator with any device that can put out, say, twice the amperage or more. That's the ability of the wires and contacts in the system to handle the amperage.
I can see where that would require replacing the main wire (starter switch to terminal block), the wire from the terminal block to the ammeter, and the wire from the ammeter to the new device, with much heavier wires. Also doing something to beef up the connection at the terminal block - mine is a blue steel wood screw into an elderly wood block. Perhaps soldering the two terminals together before placing them under the screw?
All these wires are fabric covered and color coded, and all but the first are inside looms, so this will become a difficult project. And if you don't do it right, you will certainly have a dead giveaway that there's a non-standard something or other inside that generator, and if you don't do it at all you will more than likely eventually burn up your wiring harness and maybe burn down your Model T.
This problem is solvable. It will just take work. Perhaps one of the vendors could offer wiring harnesses with increased size wires, or offer heavier wire with the same color coding for those who want to do it themselves. But the advantage you will get from the proposed setup will be well worth it if you need the added output. Just don't think it's a simple swap of the generator and no additional work. That would be dangerous.
I think I would leave the original wiring intact, and run a hidden parallel wire to the starter switch. I would also replace the ammeter with a Fun Projects voltmeter.
I will look into a possible (kit) as someone even mentioned earlier, for people with this concern, and with original coloring and coating if possible , I would never say that replacing those wires wouldn't be a very good thing, but as for being 100% necessary ? I will definitely look much deeper into that, Thanks for suggestions, they are definitely always welcome
Indeed, there is no free lunch. If the alternator puts out more charging current it will take more horsepower to operate while it produces that additional power. And yes, larger wire wold be absolutely necessary to handle more current and to prevent a fire.
I do agree with Norman (as usual) that it is normally best to restore your Model T with actual Model T parts for best results and no surprises. Ron Patterson and Brent Mize, and others, do a great job restoring original generators. Add a Fun Projects voltage regulator and you probably won't have a generator problem in your lifetime.
I will see about getting the exact specs of the horsepower situation, BUT truly doubt the alternator will be actually MORE of a HP draw than the generator is originally, One may even assume it would be LESS, especially because of the lower weight of first inertia , That armature by FAR exceeds the rotor weight, and for the wiring , as always bigger is better BUT just because an alternator has the capacity to produce more current , does not mean it will, the system is designed to handle the 20 amps of a generator correct? how many more amps do you think the alternator will exactly be putting out? if it is only asked to produce say , the 20 amps the system was designed for , will that be a problem? you do see MANY model T's and model A's with much bigger amp alternators on them and not have a problem with the wiring, obviously has ALOT to do with the condition of your wiring, but even these, say 100 or more amp alternators are NOT actually producing more than the 20 amps , The true benefit would be that the units can produce the 20 amps , BUT at an extremely more reliable source, and at a much COOLER temperature. as it has even been said by the Generator guys that the generator SHOULD NOT produce even as much as 12 -15 amps for a long period of time as it will burn it up, cook it
With a dead battery as max load, it quickly jumps to 11.9 volts with charge applied. If the alt puts out 14.0, you have only 2.1 volts difference. Looking at the resistance of about six feet of #16 original wire plus the internal resistance of the battery, you get to an IR drop at probably much less than 40 amps.
Key word = While.
I'd certainly be interested in one for My 1930 Model A . My T being a 1913 doesn't have a generator and really one is not required. However my A is used extensively including at night and it would be nice to install halogen lights and be able to safely drive at night without the (IMHO) ugly appearence of an alternator
The hp requirements have nothing to do with rotor/armature weight. At least, not after it is up to speed. It is the torque of the magnetic field that is having to be overcome. It also doesn't matter whether it is a generator or alternator, unless the efficiencies are different. It takes .00134 hp to produce 1 watt of power, asumming 100% efficiency. You cant get something for nothing. If you want more watts, you're going to have to feed in more hp unless the effic
Last line would have been "unless the efficiency of the higher output device is much greater than the original.
"My model T is as originally designed and built by Ford except..." The longer that list, the less you have a model T and the more it becomes a kit car.
Doesn't mean it won't run better, or be more convenient, but it does represent a drift from the whole idea behind the car.
It was made to be basic and inexpensive. Affordable by the common man. There were many more complicated and more expensive automobiles in that era.
If ones enjoyment is to improve upon the car to make it a faster more convenient go cart if you will, then that's fine and to each his own.
One must be honest with ones self regarding what they are driving however.
I think that a decade or more from now the younger generation will have much more information available to them than we do now if they want to go all original. Perhaps they will even be able to pull up a three D hologram of anything they want to see. Lets face it , how many of us has seen a T roll off the assembly line in person. I like to keep things looking as correct as possible but can only go as far as my interpretation according to my research. We have much more info now than when I was a kid when a lot of what help I got in the old car hobby was from older peoples memory that was not always right. Give the younger folks credit, there are some smart kids out there, I run into them all the time as I drive the old 24 on an almost daily basis. A lot of these young gearheads are more in the know than we think and have much better computer skills to find what they need. Sometimes we older heads have to face the fact that we don't know everything. KB
Personally never saw a T roll off the assembly line either, but knowledgeable of what a Model T had and looked "in the day" .
I'll repost my response from a few days ago :
"Your concerns are not unique.
In fact, they are a a bit of history. When the accessories came out during and after the Model T production, there were those who had the same worry.
Yee Gads ! Distributors, spark intensifiers, spotlights, Ethyl gas with No-Nox, multitude of aftermarket commutators, anti-chatter engine oil, balloon tires, demountable rims and others that did not come on their Ford from the factory at one time or another.
We have lasted all these years, with all these things that did not come on the original Model T, and we still know what a Model T was when it left the factory. ...."
And perhaps . when I finally get all this mess as in (reorganizing) the situation and operation of the shop set in proper motion, and get the inventory I am wanting to have , I will (for MTFCA MTFCI members) , because of the interest and misunderstandings of the different options/systems , have a deal where if at all interested in an alternator, I will send you one to try and if you decide to not use it, I will even pay to have it returned, to eliminate the concern of spending there money to check into another option, ALSO yes I am carrying on the tradition and also Give a life time warranty, so at 47yrs old, that adds a lot more years of warranty LOL ANYTHING to help
Well,my pennys worth here.
As much modern alternator trouble as I had with my work vehicals and such I aint fiqured out how they are any more reliable than anything else.
My last sign truck I was issued before I got retired was a 2004 F550 superduty. In the year that I used that truck it had at least 5 to 6 alternators put on it.3 from Ford under warrenty before they decided to blame the warning light system,led by the way,for overloads.
Why is it with all the brains on here,cant somebody just come up with a generator setup that uses 2 brushs and a regulator like something from the 40's?
Much simpler,could be same as this in the factory case and more amps than the T factory unit.
Most any system depends on some what of a level of operator understanding, as someone who has no mechanical/electrical understanding and even some that do, think that all systems are a bolt on/screw in fix to there whole vehicle, am sure any business people here who deal with a service to the public will relate, there are MANY attributes to an electrical system, each component effecting the other , so , as many find, replacing one single part without proper inspection/testing of other components can dramatically effect the results of the new part installed, and if the user does not have the understanding or experience in all of this , you will get unlimited number of complaints , with simple solutions being found by personnel that have the experience/ understanding.
that is why so many companies and products are continually making changes to (bullet proof) there product, and help lower/eliminate these issues, because of the untrained, inexperienced consumer
If you can make a 6V system Model T generator function as a 6V system alternator that performs reliably on a Model T Ford, then do it. Originality of appearance will be preserved with a great gain in its internal practical usefulness. Where is the harm? There appears to be none.
Pondering the issue of overloading the T's Ampere meter, I was wondering if it would work, using a high capacity diode and resistor(s) to shunt the initial high current from an alternator bypassing the ampmeter and design it for reading, say 10%, of the charge current, but let the full discharge current go through and show on the meter.
Obviously I am not an electrical engineer. ;-)
max. nice idea and want BUT By design, a Generator function , could NEVER be made to compare to an alternator, and I don't really understand the difference of changing the way the generator works, as to having an alternator in the exact same casing, ANY CHANGE at all is a CHANGE correct? I see many on here who make comment on a device because it isn't original, that's fine , but then other devices that change/improve things are accepted, does that make there change any more original than an other? as one person said an alternator is an alternator ect ect, Yes that is true, BUT also a CHANGE is a CHANGE, The Honest statement would be , any change from 100% originality is just that a change , how ever slight or large
Cant agree with that. If that were the case, a Chevy 350 would be no worse than a Phillips head screw. Sorry, some changes are worse than others.
The “local” and “online” experts may tell you, that you need to add a “shunt” to your original amp gauge when you upgrade to a modern alternator type of charging system. You do not and here is why….
An amp gauge does not measure alternator output it measures the amount of current going into or coming out of the battery.
The advantage of the alternator is the ability to provide an output at idle and low rpms (something the generator could not do) to keep the lights bright and the battery fully charged. The total electrical load of the vehicle remains the same as it was before.
The total amount of amperage passing thru your dash gauge will be the same or less with the alternator because the alternator is keeping up with the electrical load at all times. With the battery always fully charged at all times no large amounts of current will be flowing into or out of the battery as before.
Upgrading to 12-volts…
Now suppose you decide to upgrade to 12-volts and install a 12-volt 60-amp alternator, so you can add a modern stereo and air conditioning. What happens to the total electrical load then?
The total electrical load becomes half of what it was originally because of the electrical rule that says when you double the voltage the amperage load will be reduced by half. So our 36 amp electrical load becomes 18 amps on 12 volts. Do you think you can run air conditioning and a stereo on the remaining 18 amps? Absolutely!
You have plenty of reserve output from the alternator (40 amps, 60 minus18) and the only current that will flow thru the amp gauge in the dash is what is needed to keep the battery fully charged just as before. The alternator will take care of the additional electrical load with no affect on the amp gauge or battery.
Hal. I agree with the worse comment , BUT OK who then makes the line of acceptance? honestly ,
I am sure the mona lisa painting with a slight change would NOT be considered an original . where is the line drawn on acceptance then? is it a personal line? or club wide? or ?
Honestly Not at all attempting to be a smart alec, just honestly wondering? I mean no disrespect to anyone
Here's your answer, Daryl:
"The modifications on MY car make it safer, more reliable and improve it’s appearance.
The modifications on YOUR car are unnecessary, troublesome, gaudy and ruin the whole character of the Model T!"
Obviously . That is in the personal category , and more reliable is in my category also, what are the modifications on YOUR car?
The fact that your dad sold a bunch of starters and alternators proves that there is a market for them. If you are going to argue the finer points of your new product on this forum you may become discouraged. I hope you don't. If you offer a good quality product you do not have to defend or rationalize it.
Not really DEFNDING or RATIONALIZING as you say . I am explaining , when attempts of giving out incorrect or opinionated information is thrown at me, I am simply giving the technical facts of a product, I in no way have blasted one product to another , BUT when it is blatantly obvious that information is incorrect and technically easily proven to be so, WHY allow the masses to be incorrectly driven in a direction? and have so many not have the proper information to make there personal choice in what decisions to make concerning there vehicle and in hopes to prevent any future problems or costly ventures to correct a mistake or problem they may have. and not honestly talking about a NEW product, just an existing one, the NEW product is based on the disapproval of the appearance, and understandably so, that is the only adjustment to the new product. But I thank you for the comment and NO I wont get discouraged, we all learn from honest debate
I hope you took that quote as humor, as intended, Daryl. And I hope you have taken my questions as sincere.
Yes, I'd prefer to have the appearance a gen on my engine.
I like your attitude ! The most negativity in this world seems to be right here on the Forum.
I think its a great idea and I for one will be watching and waiting. This along with a funprojects voltmeter will give me some peace of mind
Thank you Bob. yeah I don't honestly GET that either , I have seen some discouraging words to some that might actually push some people away. because of personal opinions. NOT sure that is a productive thing, as any man enjoys the hobby for his own reasons, and if he chooses to do anything to his T ,that makes it fit his personal needs, Yes it does change the originality of the T but not sure driving him away from the hobby and his proud accomplishment is the right approach,. live and let live would be the more productive approach one would think. I personally am happy to see even more younger people taking an interest in the Hobby, I seen a site where a very young guy in his early 20's had an extensive detailed site about his T's and actually was all original, THAT truly even surprised me. Actually gave me a glimmer of hope LOL as you don't see much of that anymore from the kids LOL
I really appreciate what you are trying to do for the sport as well as the others who are reproducing needed parts and trying to help keep these old cars going. I really hated to change from a generator to a alternator, but I felt that it was necessary for me to continue to be able to drive and enjoy my car. Along with turn signals, kevlar band lining, accessary brakes, and safety glass, these items are necessary to continue safe enjoyment of the hobby.
Eighty to sometimes one hundred year old cars in this modern age one modern highways requires all the help we can get. To get from my house to town to go to monthly cruises, I have to travel about five miles mostly on four lane roads running 30mph amidst young folks who have never seen a T and sometimes have no patience for following slow moving vehicles and then again they just stay back and look at it. If my friend goes to town in his 15 touring, I always follow and block for him as that he has no electrical system and I can provide turn signal and brake lights. In the 20's running on rutted out wagon roads, you didn't need turn signals, brake lights, or even brakes(much). Different times require different measures all part of living in modern times.
Roger, thank you for the nice comments, I am happy to see you are from NC, as having lived in Raleigh, actually (Youngsville) now for a cpl of years and LOVE it, NEVER leaving, I would like to ask you about any and all events going on around the area , as I haven't found many, if you could please prvt message me with any info you could provide, I only have seen one club so far (tarheelT's) and not much info on it
Not much going on in my area for T owners. My friend and I are the only T's that I know of that are licensed and actually driven on the road in our county.
There is an active T club up in Hendersonville.
You 2 need to key in Tarheel T's into your seach engine.NC based and active and good people.
Love the DUMP picture mack !!
right now i do not have a generator or alternator on my car. i do try to drive my car daily which means i have to recharge my battery a couple times a week. since i drive in town a lot with my lights on the alternator would be a better choice for me since i am running at a lower rpm. the nice thing about an alternator in a generator housing is that if i want to bring the car back to how it was built all it takes is three bolts and a wire
will let you know asap about the generator/alternator, if you decide to go the alternator route , Just let me know, can easily return , if not 100% satisfied
I was initially excited about the KC Warford, until I found out it costs more than I've paid for some T's! When will we have an idea of a target cost?