Radiator non-fit: what's wrong?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Radiator non-fit: what's wrong?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 01:53 pm:


This radiator was in the car before, so it should fit. But with the top connection not lining up, it won't even go back far enough for the support rod to reach it.


I can't recall anything I might have changed that would cause this. Any ideas?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 02:04 pm:

Take the hose off and place the radiator in the correct position. If it lines up, the problem is the hose, and the awkward bend thats hampering things. Snug the hose as far up on the upper connection as you can, and wiggle it back into place after everything is lined up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 02:14 pm:

With the radiator off the car, install the hose to the radiator and to the head water outlet; leave the clamps loose. Install the radiator and then bolt the outlet to the head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 02:17 pm:

Steve isn't this the Runabout you replaced the front frame crossmember?

I do remember when I restored my 24 Coupe and it got to the point of installing the new Bergs radiator the top hose was out of alignment slightly with the top outlet of the engine.

My restoration was a frame up restoration and even after being extra careful keeping things in the correct alignment (or so I thought) reinstalling the radiator was the most diffulcult.
After much head scratching and this and that I got things a little closer and buttoned things up.

Maybe the frame needed straightening. Not sure.

In my situation I installed the hood on the car and got the radiator aligned using it to square things up. It isn't perfect but its real close.

The top hose outlet was a little closer and I don't even think about it now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 03:03 pm:


Unfortunately, John has the right reason for the problem. I never noticed it, but the new cross member is deeper than the old one, making the front of the engine an inch too low for the radiator. Now I have to figure out what to do about it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 03:15 pm:

Steve,

Could you shim under the front motor mount? This maybe the reason you were having problems with the crankcase arms lining up???

And I thought all the front cross members were the same?? did they change at some time with the change of pan noses or radiators from brass to black???

Weird.
Good luck with it and we're pulling for you.
Nothing worse then fixing something and then finding it's not the cure.
Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 03:22 pm:

From the first picture it looks like your engine is going down hill in relation to the frame. Can't lower the rear mount so, replacing the front cross member may be the only option.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 03:47 pm:

There is a thread from last year from a Gentlemen in Australia that said some motors were mounted under the top of the side Frame for some reason I don't understand. Maybe This is your issue?

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/294444.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 04:19 pm:

I'm afraid Gary is right. I despise the idea of replacing the cross member again, but I suppose that's what I'll have to do. The under-frame rear mount discussion is a red herring. Even if there's anything to it, it doesn't apply here. I guess I need to start shopping for another cross member.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 05:02 pm:

Hmmm... Curiouser and curiouser. Now I'm really mystified. I went back and carefully measured again, several times. The NOS cross member I installed is 1/8" deeper than the one it replaced, not a full inch. The radiator holes are exactly the right distance apart (21.5"), showing no sag. The inch difference between the head outlet and the radiator inlet makes absolutely no sense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis E. Towle on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 06:36 pm:

Steve, what about taking off the spout on the radiator and cutting a new angle on it and re solder it back. Sounds easy in theory?


Travis
Topeka kansas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 06:48 pm:

Are the rear engine mount "ears" stock and installed per factory? To turn Gary's comment around, if the front is OK it must be the rear....

Puzzling.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 06:51 pm:

Steve, if you have another outlet, check it against the one you have. I just looked at one on a 26 head I have here and it has a good bit more angle. I believe I read some where once that there are differences , but don't remember what applications. If you need one I'll take this one off and send it. KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 06:54 pm:

I can't tell for sure, but in your first two photos it sorta looks like the top of the radiator is tilted away from the engine. Also, the radiator/firewall rod is not installed to lock in correct distance from firewall to radiator top. Would it help and would the hood fit if you just pull the top of the radiator back a little? That sort of movement would improve the hose lineup.

Of course, I could be 100% wrong.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 06:58 pm:

Steve at this point I think I would find a good water outlet and cut the spout off and use some type of pipe the same size and align it up and weld it together. Maybe another T outlet from another year would work before you do it.
The one in the pic that Keith B shows I believe would work. Might not be perfect but it should work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 07:40 pm:

Do you have enough leeway to shim up the engine mount?

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/306337.html?1346468422


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 08:23 pm:

Put a yard stick across the top of the frame rails and measure from the top of the frame rails to the top center of the cross member. The measurement should be five inches.

If you can't get to those locations, measure from the bottom of frame rails to the bottom center of the cross member. That should also be five inches.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 08:31 pm:

Did you change the radiator mounting pads? It looks like it's a bit high from the frame rail. This could be a combination of things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 08:32 pm:

Looking at your first picture, your engine does appear to be nose down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 08:46 pm:


No, the later (high head) fitting isn't the answer. It's worse.

Ken, the old cross member I replaced is exactly 5". The new one I installed is 1/8" more than that, not enough to explain the 1" mismatch.

David, the pads are from John Regan (exactly correct).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 09:16 pm:

The confounding thing, is you say this was all together before! Did anything change at the rear motor mounts?? Why does the engine appear to be low at the front end? (Compare your side view with any other T engine side views)
Good luck!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 09:22 pm:

Steve

It might be the picture but the radiator seems to be leaning forward a bit If the bottom was moved forward it might bring things into alignment.

Have you checked the fit of the hood? It might give you a clue !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 10:04 pm:

Did you put a high head on the engine? That would raise the outlet by about 1/2 - 5/8".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 10:06 pm:

Never mind.............


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 10:07 pm:

Had to go to the garage and look - I think Mike is right. Looks like a high head with a late water neck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Redelman on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 10:19 pm:

Steve
I have the same problem with my 09 that I am just putting back together. I bought a new outlet and another used brass radiator outlet and even tried the 13 brass radiator I had, all showed the same problem as far as alignment. I found a picture of an outlet that looks the same as mine on page 57 upper right hand corner of From Here to Obscurity (misalignment vertically) I do believe that with a new upper hose (red one) that I have I will be able to connect the two it seems to be a little larger in diameter and extra long compared to how tight the small ones fit on the tube and outlet. I just came in from the garage and saw your post about the same problem and will be looking for other pictures in all of other literature that I have here. Good luck and keep us all informed if you come up with a better fix. Thanks for all the pictures and information that you post, they provide some great information. Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 10:25 pm:

The only other items that can change the engine height is the front mount and the pan. I sure don't get it otherwise.

Or maybe the cross member channel is shallow. It should be three inches from the bottom of the frame rails to the mounting pad. (Top center of the cross member.)

That's all I got unless the pan side arms are mounted low. (Raising the rear of the engine.) But I followed the that thread and they looked good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Redelman on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 10:35 pm:

Here is an engine picture of the 09 when I bought the car and you can see how the radiator outlet bottom on the engine is way lower than the radiator lower outlet on the bottom of the tank.another shot side view


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 11:49 pm:

The mystifying thing here is that so little has changed. All I know of that's different: a new cross member and a recored radiator. It's the same pan and engine, with the same stock low head and water outlet. The only difference between the old cross member and the new one is just under 1/8". That's certainly not enough to cause the 1" gap. I'd really prefer to stay stock here, but I may have to resort to a high head with a low water outlet. I'd much rather figure out the source of the problem and fix that.

If some of you guys who have 1915 cars will do some measuring for me, that might help. If your radiator inlet lines up pretty well with the engine outlet, measure the distance from the top of the frame rails to the bottom of the radiator inlet.


On this radiator that distance is about 10.75". If it's shorter on similar cars, that will tell me the problem is here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 12:33 am:

After looking at the first pic in your second post again Steve MY opinion is the outlet from the rad tank isn't soldered in properly.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/380128.jpg


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 12:41 am:

Steve,

My 14 is assembled so I cannot get a good measurement to the bottom of the inlet. Without dis-assenbling things I can report that the distance from the top of the frame to the bottom of the tank looks to be almost exactly 13 inches. Then using a tri square and feeling the hose to find the bottom of the inlet (not very exact) it looks to be 3 inches below the bottom tank and that would make the frame to bottom of inlet 10 inches. I think your core is to tall. This is on a new brassworks radiator but all lines up very nicely on my car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 12:42 am:

Steve

If you had the radiator recored I'll bet that where the problem is.

As you say only two things have changed and you know that the crossmember has only moved one eighth inch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 12:45 am:

I agree with Craig, I think your outlet has the wrong angle after the work you had done on it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 12:45 am:

That's what I suspect too, and why I'm asking for measurements. If that's it, then the question will be whether I want to ship it back to Tom's for repair or have the local guy try it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 12:53 am:

Steve......after seeing ALL the things you have with so little I'm SHOCKED you haven't mastered soldering. (Sort of teasing here.......but only sort of....... :-) )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 12:54 am:

Crap......... "ALL the things you have DONE with...... "

Rats


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 01:02 am:

The neck into the radiator doesn't look right to me. I would suspect it was tweaked a bit when the radiator was reworked. You may be able to deform the underside of the tank enough to help.
I don't know if you could get red or not. But a slightly larger size radiator hose pulled in by the hose clamps has worked for me a few times when speedster radiators wouldn't line up. I have never had a leak problem from doing that.
I am hoping the "engine going downhill" look is an illusion of angle? If it truly is going downhill that much, I would hate to think of what the problem would be!
Good luck!
Drive carefully, and enjoy W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 01:03 am:

Steve, I just measured the distance between the center of the support rod and the top end of the outlet and it measures 5 and a quarter inches on my spare brass radiator.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 01:04 am:

I agree that it looks like the inlet on the radiator is at the wrong angle. When it was together and the hose was installed I bet the misalignment did not show up as much as it does now.

Here is my take on the angles:






Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 01:31 am:

If this is of any help Steve, the measurement of the outer bottom end of the top spout to the bottom corner of the bottom tank is 13&1/2"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 04:48 am:

Steve, I think that as has been posted, it may be that the inlet on the bottom of the upper tank has not been installed at the correct angle. In fact, from the pictures that you have posted, it looks like the the bottom of the tank is not square with the radiator. JMHO. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 07:06 am:

looks like you get to impress us with your welding skills as you show us how to fabricate a new neck for the head :/ sorry you have to do it, but i know it will be fun to watch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Killecut on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 08:49 am:

Steve,
Assuming the engine is sitting where it should, and from what you are saying, it sounds like it is. If the hood lines up to the radiator correctly, it seems the problem would be in the inlet. I measured three radiators from the top of the rod casting to the top of the inlet. The measurement varied from 5 3/8 to 5 5/8 inch. The original Ford on the right is 5 3/8. IF your problem is here, a fairly easy fix would be to split the tank where I've put a red line on the one tank. I marked the red line above the seam, so you shouldn't have any leakage problems there. If you are uncomfortable being that close to the seam you could probably bring it up a little more. Open it enough just enough that you can push the inlet into alignment. Cut a piece of brass and drop into the back side to fill the gap. Solder it back up, finish it off and spray it flat black. Just remember when you're soldering, cleanliness is next to godliness. You won't have any heat near the core, and if you push it down gently you shouldn't run into any problems. You should be able to get it reasonably close.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 10:28 am:

Your rad outlet fitting doesn't look like any of the pics posted here which seems odd. re-aligning that fitting is your best/easiest answer. I also think that if the eng was 1" nose low you'd have noticed it when attaching the drive shaft if it's already in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 11:03 am:

Steve,
For my money Craig Anderson identified your problem and Jim Thode beautifully illustrated it. Unsolder that incorrectly installed upper connection and order a new one from the suppliers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 11:18 am:

Steve,

Hard to tell from your photos but it looks like your radiator tank is kind of rolled forward some. Meaning, if you measured the distance from each corner of the tank to the brass shell, then compared that to the dimension from the top center of the tank to the brass shell, you would find that last dimension to be somewhat less than the other two. Or in still other words, that back face of the radiator tank is not sitting vertical when the rest of the radiator is.

All that is to say that with the tank canted forward, it has changed the angle and alignment of your water inlet. I had the exact same problem with a later style radiator. I couldn't put the shell over it because the neck didn't line up anymore with the hole in the shell. I removed and repositioned the neck by 5/8"!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 11:20 am:

I need to take some time off for mowing before the grass gets totally out of control, but before I go I'll report what I found. Jim's angle diagram is confirmed by the measurements from Jay and Dan. The inlet pipe on this radiator is angled too high. I'll consult a couple of experienced radiator specialists before I decide what to do about it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 01:54 pm:

OH SURE.......leave us hanging.......(I know what you mean about out of control grass....grrrrr)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 02:04 pm:

But re-positioning the inlet won't fix his other problem, or will it?

...."....it won't even go back far enough for the support rod to reach it...."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 02:20 pm:

I measured my original 1914 radiator, and its 5-1/4. I also measured my older brassworks radiator 5-1/4. This is from the rod casting center to the edge of the neck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 02:20 pm:

I just can't get out of my head that from looking at Steve's first picture, the engine appears to be angled just a bit downward at the front, and the fact that anything to raise the front of the engine just a bit would fix the goose neck/radiator inlet misalignment problem......???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ex trooper on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 02:39 pm:

Is the front end still off and hanging over on jackstands? Sounds like a downsag on the front half... ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 03:23 pm:

Fit the hood and see where you are. It looks like if you rolled the radiator back a touch all would line up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 03:28 pm:

If the front of the engine was a shade low it would improve oiling the bearings which is why i modified my engine mount.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 05:28 pm:

I still think that the radiator is tipped forward at the top.

Measure the distance from the firewall at the top and bottom of the radiator to see if it is different

You might have bent something at the frame when you replaced the front crossmember

Jim thorp's sketch suggests that it might be off by 10 degrees


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 06:57 pm:

It is entirely possible that the last time the radiator was worked on, that the top connection was altered to fit to the position of the engine. If the crossmember had spread, it would have lowered the radiator in relation to the engine and so the fitting would have been moved to line up with the engine.

Before doing anything radical such as replacing the fitting on the radiator, it would be a good idea to check with someone who has a car of the same year as yours and measure carefully the position of the radiator in relation to the engine. Then if necessary order a new fitting and solder it to the radiator. Also check the water outlet on the head. It is possible also that it is different from the original one. Then whichever part needs to be replaced do so. If the problem turns out to be the frame crossmember, Punt!
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevin Gough on Sunday, August 11, 2013 - 03:48 am:

Steve, I had my 1918 radiator overhauled by a local radiator repair shop. When it came back, the angle of the inlet was different. I made a spacer that lined things up again (wouldn't work the way yours is). When I bought a new Brassworks radiator, I had to remove the spacer to get things lined up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Sunday, August 11, 2013 - 09:02 am:

Steve,

I wish you were closer. I'd let you try the rad I have for the speedster project and check he fit. Anybody out there have the year brass rad to use and check with?

Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Sunday, August 11, 2013 - 09:11 pm:

Steve,
I'd sure check the fit of my hood before you move the inlet. You'd hate to find out the core was an inch too tall.


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