Paint Question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Paint Question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 07:49 am:

On an improved Fordor, what color should the body be painted, inside the rear fenders? The car is dark green, fenders are black.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 08:10 am:

After looking at a few pictures, it looks like it should be body color.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 08:59 am:

Bodies were painted then fenders were added. They would not have two-toned the body, keeping fender areas for a different color.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 10:05 am:

While it is probably correct that the area inside the fenders were the body color at the time of manufacture and after assembly, it would look strange for the area to be left the body color (especially maroon), so it would not be inconceivable for Ford to assign a worker to paint that area gloss black with a can of paint and a brush at the factory or for them to have the dealers do it at the final dealer destination. While I cannot find any bulletin addressing the procedure, I'll bet many dealers did it without authority, just because it made sense and looked better. My original 26 Fordor is black inside the rear fender well and that area has not been touched since it left the factory. Does the Model T car show guidelines/rules have anything on this? Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 10:12 am:

I decided to leave it green. I can always paint it black later, but it would be hard to make it green again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 10:49 am:

The inner wheel well area on my car is Maroon, just like the rest of the body.

Actually, it's more of a 'dirt' color because I'm not inclined to get in there and clean it. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 12:48 pm:

If it was black I think it would be done before the body was on the chassis to keep from damaging surrounding areas and other cars. The factory photo of the mid to late 26 body mating line doesn't support that. The area is body color and the rear fender attached after the body was in place on the chassis. The original fasteners appear to be phosphate or oxide blackened so there was no need to daub paint on them like some of the chassis hardware.

What's also interesting is that the chassis and bodies appear to be ordered by the body style. Some have steering wheels and a few black radiator shells. Most likely the wheeled chassis are for open cars or perhaps chassis only. (You need a lot of hands to drop a body on a chassis with the steering wheel mounted.) The Tudor in the picture clearly has no steering wheel--Yet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 04:58 pm:

Ken,

Please let me know what reference you are looking at, in case I can look at that one also.

The couple of photos of the 1926 - 27 assembly line that I reviewed do not really show the rear paint area under the rear fender clearly. And of course once the body is mounted is difficult to see inside the rear fender to know what color is there.

Both of the photos below came from: http://rap361.com/?p=3580 scroll down and click on the CarData video of the Model T. It combines footage from several years. You can see on the photos below the time into the video.





Also the 1927 cars had for the most part discontinued black. [That can be debated but clearly if there were some black ones they were the exception and not the bulk of 1927 production. Ref: MTFCI judging guidelines 6th edition "item 130 -- Color" under the 1927 section under the 1926 section Fordor, Coupe, & Tudor were in color and the other cars in black. Ton Truck both years -- black. [Don't get wrapped around the axle -- note they say "guidelines." If anyone has something different and can document it [early photo, literature, parts drawing, etc. they will allow it and in many cases they will update the judging guidelines if it was more than a one time occurrence etc. ]

Several of us have been trying to figure out the pattern for when the chassis would have the steering wheel left on during the body drop or assembly line and when they would have the steering wheel removed for the body drop and assembly line. Every time I think I have it figured out I will see a new photo that contradicts my theory. Please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/214092.html?1306723515

Note it shows a 1924 Canadian assembly line and is cropped from the photo on page 111 of “The Model T” by Robert C. Kreipke. It is available from the venders and an excellent book on Ts. It shows how very easy to drop the body onto the chassis that have a steering wheel for the 1925 and earlier cars (also 1926-27 Ton Trucks). Those chassis have the firewall attached to the chassis rather than the 1926-27 cars that had the firewall attached to the body. Note in that photo they all appear to have steering wheels on the chassis.



In that same thread, Jay posted a great photo reposted below of the “improved ford” assembly line. Note that same photo is dated 8-1026 on page 135 of Robert C. Kreipke's "The Model T."



The improved Coupe that just had the body dropped does NOT have the steering wheel. The next chassis does NOT have a steering wheel. It looks like a roadster body is next to be dropped – but they may have multiple bodies coming down multiple “mono rails” and there may be another closed car body that will be dropped on the chassis instead of the roadster. The third chassis in line has a steering wheel and a black radiator and would be a good candidate for the roadster body. But I don’t know which body is destined for that chassis with the steering wheel attached. Note that third chassis in the “improved car assembly line” and it is an improved car and NOT an improved car chassis – as the firewall used on the car chassis only is NOT attached. Note is it always possible that the chassis after the coupe body was another coupe chassis and the coupe body was out of view.

We would welcome additional comments, photos and questions to try and help establish a pattern. The painting as well as the steering wheel present or removed may have also varied by time and which plant the photo was taken.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 08:48 pm:

The model A got more attention to detail that the T ever did and they were all body color under the fenders.
I can't see them masking off part of the body while the other part was being painted. No way.
Anyway, what difference would painting the rear area under the fenders black make anyway?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 10:19 pm:

The last photo is the one I was referring to Hap.
Here's the same picture lightened. This is reduced from the original but steering wheels can clearly be seen all down the line in the original. The box of assembly bolts can also be seen on the running board of the second chassis following the Tudor (black radiator shell).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, August 11, 2013 - 01:18 pm:

I have to correct Arron's statement about the Model A. There is documentation that some plants painted wheel wells black on light colored bodies--at least in the 1930-31 era.
In the above T picture, I can see that all chassis had the steering columns in place, but wheels appear to be only on the black shell chassis--although the 5th chassis back from the coupe appears to be black shell & no wheel.
More questions!! It is interesting to note that production control was sophisticated enough to have black & nickeled shells mixed in the line--the body drop selection had to be timed to the chassis.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Tuesday, August 13, 2013 - 08:30 am:

I don't see that all the cars on the line had steering in place.

A few do, but to my eye, not all
.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn on Tuesday, August 13, 2013 - 08:59 am:

OK, enlighten me please...always finding out new stuff here...on the photo above, the first improved car with the body on it--is it my imagination, or an optical illusion, or are the splash aprons curved? I was of (maybe the wrong) impression that by the time all the improved models came out, the splash aprons were the "boxy" looking type, much like the Model A. Just curious.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Tuesday, August 13, 2013 - 09:16 am:

Tim - I don't think the apron is completely installed yet. It looks to me to be leaning in. It's probably just set in place waiting for the next op. You can see a gap between the top of the apron and the rear fender.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Tuesday, August 13, 2013 - 09:26 am:

Michael - Hap stated that the steering wheels may not have been installed yet at the point of the body drop after I stated that the steering wheels may have been selectively installed (ordered by body style). I stated that there appears to be steering wheels (perhaps for a specific style) installed down the entire line. I did not mean that all steering wheels were installed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Tuesday, August 13, 2013 - 09:49 am:

Something else that I noticed in the photo; The Proxylin finish isn't near as shinny as the varnish finish of earlier years. The fenders still appear to be dipped and baked and remained shinny though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn on Wednesday, August 14, 2013 - 08:38 am:

Ken: yep, looking again (4th.time!) that makes sense. Now I noticed looks like you can see some of the factory floor between the apron and the fender. Good eye!


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