Wooden felloes: Rivet? Why not bolt it!

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Wooden felloes: Rivet? Why not bolt it!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 07:52 pm:

Long story short, on one of my rear wheels that I had redone, I found that all the rivets had become loose. The wood was still tight, it was only the rivets. After taking it apart, it become apparent that I just didn't rivet them properly to begin with. Being the innovative person that I am, I decided to try something new. I figured that I'd use carriage bolts instead. The head is inside the rim, and because it's smooth and round, it won't hurt the inner tube (plus I always use flaps).

I filed out the old rivet holes until they were square. Then it was just a matter of putting in the carriage bolts.

The nice thing about the carriage bolts is that they can be tightened anytime without having to pull the tire off. You can see in the pictures that I left the bolts loose. I'll put it on the car, true it with a nice big mallet, and then tighten them down. I figure that the bolts will do a much better job of holding the felloes in place in the event that they ever become loose. After all, it's MUCH more important that the felloes are tight to the rim then the spokes are tight to the felloes if something becomes loose. Otherwise, all that's holding your wheel together are six soft iron rivets.

The good news is that the wood is still extremely tight, and the spokes are solid as can be. It's ready to go back on the car! Square holes
Carriage Bolt Heads
Bolted Felloe Plates


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 08:04 pm:

How about using acorn nuts. Seems like a reasonable idea. I think I would prefer "loktite" ( the "breakable kind) to the lock washers


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 08:05 pm:

I don't think the lock washers are sufficient. I would peen the bolts into the nuts too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 07:21 pm:

All sound like good ideas!

But I don't think nuts coming undone will be a big issue. But if a nut comes off, nothing will really come of it. After all, bolts can't fall out, and the pressure from the inner tube will keep them in place and stop them from falling into the tire.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 07:50 pm:

I wood be a little concerned about the threads sawing into a wiggling felloe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 09:11 pm:

Cameron,
There seems to be two failure modes on these rivets.

  1. peening failure
  2. shear failure


On my recent tour I had a felloe rivet come loose. Upon pulling the tire off I found that the peened end had pulled through the rim allowing the rimm to go loose on the felloe. I repaired it by re-peening. This repair got me through the tour and now I am planning on shimming my wheel and replacing all the rivets.


Shear failure is when the rivet breaks on it's shaft. Usually at the interface between the rim and the felloe.

My concern with this "fix" is that the carriage bolts you are using are grade 2. In many cases it has been discovered that this type of "grade 2 bolt" may have been sourced from China and really be a "grade 0 bolt". In addition to the weak material the threads weaken the bolt... cut threads more than rolled threads. So although that head is unlikely to pull through the hole the bolt is much more likely to shear than the rivet would. Since the rivet is peened into the rim there is virtually no movement there. The bolt is, well... bolted to the rim allowing some radial play and wear increasing the likelyhood of failure.

If you use carriage bolts you shouldn't be using those grade 2 bolts but rather a grade 5 or better yet, a grade 8.

Grade 5:
grade 5

Grade 8:
garade 8


By all means please stake those nuts!!!!

BTW, the repair above lasted the whole tour. It's still ok, I know because I had the tire off 5 times for flat repair... lots of bad tubes, no punctures!

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 09:27 pm:

Terry,Where would one find a grade 8 carrage bolt?Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 10:58 pm:

As the felloe rivets are something you would fit and not intend ever undoing normally why no improve the fix by peening the rivet and then welding the peened section although done properly the peening works well.

MIG welding would be the best way as the heat would be localised so the wood would not be effected. Weld the area and cool with a wet rag straight away.

I understand often we give advice and that sometimes people do not have access to the equipment so doing such may not be easy or possible for them but someone else may pick up on a hint and it can help them.

Peening itself does need to be done with some care. I have seen one case where the person peened the hell out of a rivet so much so it bent the rivet in the timber splitting it which rendered the whole process useless.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 11:45 pm:

Cameron,
I did the same thing on tour last year with a front wheel on our Model K. So far, the wheel is tight. I used locking nuts. Next time I have the tire off I intend to reverse the carriage bolts, grinding the nut a little thinner (when it is between the tube and rim. I use rim liners so a little (narrow) nut shouldn't cause any problem.
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 01:21 am:

From the first page of over 20 pages of my search:

Allied http://www.alliedbolt.com/bolts.html

Global http://www.globalindustrial.com/g/fasteners/carriage-bolts/round-head2/Carriage- Bolt-Round-Head-Grade-8

Earnest https://www.earnestmachine.com/technical-library/carriage-bolts/grade-8-carriage -bolts.aspx

Homestead.com http://stores.homestead.com/hstrial-knoori2/-strse-Parts-Department-Supply-cln-F asteners-cln-Bolts-cln-Carriage-Bolts-cln-Grade-8-carriage-bolts/Categories.bok

FMP https://www.fastmetalproducts.com/Carriage_Bolts_Grade_8.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 05:35 am:

I would be concerned about a stress concentration at the sharp corner of the hole you filed square. Looks like a good place for a crack to develop.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 08:21 am:

Hal,

The holes in the rim of our Model K were already square. I'm not sure why, but they appear to be the original rims. The carriage bolts we used fit into the rim hole with no altering.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 08:25 am:

It's probably no problem if there is a radius in the corner. It's sharp corners that cause the problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 08:36 am:

I don't believe that shearing the bolts would be a big issue. After all, what keeps the wood held in the rim is the friction of the wood pressed tight in the rim, not the rivets or bolts. I've always figured that they were just for an added measure of safety. Ideally, no rivets need to be used, but then if the wood ever got loose, then it's good-bye wheel! If that wasn't the case, they would have put more than 6 little rivets in them in the first place! My wood is very tight, and when I found that all the rivets had come loose, there was no evidence that the felloes had moved in any direction at all in the rim. That's how it should be.

I also don't think that a crack is something to worry about. The steel in the rim is about 3/32" thick, and knowing Henry, it must have been made of some VERY good steel. It took forever to file those holes square with a brand-new Nicholson file! I don't see how there could be enough stress in the metal to develop a crack, and it would have to be a very big crack before it starts to jeopardize the structural integrity of the rim.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 09:36 am:

Well,Now i know they do exist my next question is why?? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 09:48 am:

For starters, any felloe which shears a rivet, or works a rivet to the shaft size says that the wood is moving against the steel rim....think about it.

We know that Ford intended a hefty press fit as just look at the videos that do exist...those segments had a hefty press. The wood dries out over time and shrinks in size, yet I can't help but think that the Ford original idea was to never lose the hoop stress between the rim and the wood. Yeah, I know...lot's of air gaps out there now!

I myself wouldn't be too concerned about the Grade of bolt used as those original rivets were probably but Bessemer Steel which on a good day would only test out equal to a Grade #2 rated material anyway, but certainly a higher grade bolt increases the 'comfort' level. I'd agree with Cameron thought, and caution for others...Cameron does say his wood is tight into the steel...and as long as the bolt is in compression (holding the wood tight to the rim)his idea should hold true. Keyword here for others is wood tight against the rim!

I'll share a story, one I haven't before only because I was never able to prove it. I know of a car, a '16 that had a sheared rivet on the right front. The guy laughed about it and said there were 3 more. He'd push it up until it stuck by friction and call it a day but by noon it was hanging down again. This car also coincidentally had the dreaded left hand turn 'wild shimmy' from time to time and he use to laugh as he'd just hold that death grip until it went away because everything else checked out.

He sent the car to me for work one time...and while I had it, I just changed the right front wheel out using his existing hub since I had about 6 good wheels in the 'crib' and just didn't feel right about his 'bravado' on the floating rivet so I just did it as a gift. (I didn't have spare rivets on hand, and actually was questioning the other 3 as to future integrity)

2+2 may not equal 4 all the time but since that change out to a 'tight' right front...the dreaded left turn 'shimmy' has been hiding and its been over a dozen years now. I've always wondered just how much float the wood took on the rim in a left hand situation. Food for thought, just the one experience.

Play safe...think it through.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 11:46 am:

Perhaps get a shouldered long carriage head bolt and use a die to thread down enough to fit the application.
The shoulder of the bolt would not saw into the wood.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 12:17 pm:

The threads would only saw nto the wood if the bolt was loose, this looks like a very good idea. Ford used rivets because they were cheaper, not because they were better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 12:30 pm:

A shouldered bolt is a good idea, but make sure that the shoulder part ends a bit below the wood surface, see attached pic.

If you get a chance, buy or check out a copy of Carroll Smith's book, "Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners, and Plumbing Handbook". In it he explains why it is important that the interface where the shoulder of the bolt ends and the threads start needs to be below the surface of the bolt hole, to keep the starting thread stress riser away from the surface.

bolt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 12:40 pm:

One other thing, It is much better to find a bolt with the correct shoulder and thread length than to use a die to extend the threaded part of a bolt that is going to encounter significant stress. Modern bolts have rolled threads. The rollers compress and strengthen the metal of the threaded portion of the bolt. The additional threads added by the die will not have the benefit of the "cold working" that the original rolled threads experienced. Again, Carroll Smith explains it in his book.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sosnoski on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 01:56 pm:

I think I would have replaced it with a rivet again. At least it would retain the original look. Spot welding the rivet to the felloe might not be a bad idea. I then would drill and countersink holes through the center of the rim between each pair of spokes and insert a wood screw through the rim and into the felloe. That would provide a much stronger attachment of the felloe to the rim than relying only on those small rivets. It would also be completely invisible.

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 01:57 pm:

I probably should mention that I am using shouldered bolts!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 03:02 pm:

Like many have said - the rivets are solid and are tight in the hole so there is no movement.
The shoulder bolt is a good idea - the only thing I would add would be something to make sure the bolt fit in the hole without any slop.
Maybe use some type of filler to make sure!


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