Valve gunk identification

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Valve gunk identification
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chester Leighton on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 05:02 pm:

The T got to where it was running rough and wouldn't pull a hill. I did a compression test and #2 & #3 cylinders were low. I pulled the head and the valves were so crudded up, I don't know how the engine was running. My question is, the exhaust valves were thickly coated in a white semi powdery substance. What would cause this? I have 3000 miles on the engine since it was put back together. The only non stock components are the 0.020 over aluminum pistons. I run 93 unleaded with out any bottled additives in the fuel. It looks like there are burn and scratch marks in the cylinders in the pictures but they are not burned or scratched, it's the reflection of the top of the piston on the shiny cylinder wall,some crud from removing the head and some anti freeze that was still in the head when I pulled it off. I'm going to get a set of new stainless valves. Will this prevent this from happening again?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 05:08 pm:

I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm glad to hear that you're getting rid of those two-piece valves! Many guys have "learned the hard way" when their engine tried (unsuccessfully) to "digest" a valve head when one of those original type two-piece valve broke!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 05:09 pm:

So why are you running 93 octane in a 4-1 cr engine? I don't know if this is the source of your problem. Guys will recommend you get rid of the original valves anyway. You probably have excess valve guide clearance? Could be the source of your problem


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 05:24 pm:

That engine is an oil burner, those clean washed pistons means your rings are failing, maybe to much ring clearance or been to hot at one stage etc, and now the bore is heavily glazed as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ex trooper on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 06:12 pm:

Yeah, but the tan colored exhaust valves are good mixture indication... ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 06:24 pm:

That is so Troop but on this engine I would be more inclined to think this is the reason for a tan exhaust valve.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 06:36 pm:

That's a heck of a lot of carbon build up for 3000 miles. Burning oil or running rich.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 07:23 pm:

This baby is in need a new set of rings or maybe the works. I agree this engine is using a lot of oil and must have poor compression.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 09:51 pm:

Lifter to valve stem clearance too tight can also result in the valve not seating well enough which can in turn result in the brown/burned look of the valve. A lot of T owners want their engine quiet. I like to hear my valves, just not too much.
I am SO glad you are getting rid of those two-piece valves.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 10:22 pm:

Wayne - I have a "theory" regarding noisy tappets. Just my own opinion, but I think you can actually have a couple thousandths extra valve lash and still not have what most people would consider noisy tappets. I believe that the "secret" is in making sure that the amount of valve lash is "THE SAME" (or as nearly the same as possible) for each valve. It's when you have one or two that have a bit more clearance than the others that you hear tappet noise. I really believe that .010 for intakes and .012 for exhaust is probably about right, but again, for a bit extra to be sure not to burn a valve, I think .012 and .014 would result in nice quiet valves, but again, as long as they are all nearly "THE SAME".

The reason I like just a bit more clearance is twofold:

1) To be sure that the valves (especially the exhaust valves) close TIGHT against the seat, as a valve that does not close tight leaks, and what it is leaking is "FIRE".

2) The only time a valve cools is when it is seated tight against the valve seat because that allows heat from the valve to radiate heat into the slightly cooler engine block. And it should be remembered that the more valve clearance, the LONGER the valve remains seated against the cooler engine block (valve seat) and can therefore radiate just a bit more heat. Yeah, it's just a bit more, but it's EVERY TIME the valve closes, right?

Anyway, that's my theory and I'm stick'n to it,.......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike D, Williamsburg VA on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 10:52 pm:


I would recommend replacing the 2 piece valves too.
My engine lost power one day..in a parade!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 11:30 pm:

Looks to me like the engine is running too cold.
maybe a lot of slow idle time too. I see nothing unusual about that coke buildup. It just needs to be worked a little harder.
It needs to be run harder and stop burning that gasoline with the additive in it to slow down the burning. Use regular not high test.
Also running with the timing too much retarded or advanced probably would not cause that coke problem.
If every valve is a little bit noisy they are not as noticeable as when only one valve is making a tapping noise. I think that is why some have said to make sure they are all the same.
I am setting the engine I am building right now to .010 intake and .011 exhaust. Actually two of the intakes are .009.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 01:35 pm:

It looks like any other Model T engine I have ever looked inside of. Nothing unusual.

Hopefully when you replaced the pistons you used new rings and lightly honed the cylinders.

You need a valve job, (which you say you're going to do).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Wicker on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 01:46 pm:

Need to take her out on the road and Blow Her Out for a few miles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 01:47 pm:

Come on guys! I found the problem in his first picture: he's got a water pump. =D


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 02:00 pm:

Seth - You're right! And that water pump helps it to run cooler which results in the problem Aaron mentioned above.

Solution: Valve job with modern stainless valves and remove the water pump. Also, drive it more at normal speeds (25 to 35 mph) and less at parade speeds.

Just my opinion based on the previous posts above.

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 02:10 pm:

HAHAHAHAHAhaha I was just joking actually.

Question though Keith - what's the temperature difference if he's running in parades WITH a water pump verses running at speed without one?

In a parade the parameters make it a lot easier to overheat, at least to me anyway. It's usually hotter outside and you're rarely doing much more than idling in low pedal.

As long as you have a good clean radiator (with fins well attached) and water jacket a waterpump shouldn't really be necessary, parade or not.

I have a new flat-tube and my car NEVER overheats, even idling in 95+ degree heat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 02:17 pm:

I do not see any cross hatch in the cylinders at all.

A good cross hatch will be very visible at 15,000 miles yet

The cross hatch is put there only to seat the rings, and as Kerry says, those rings are not.

In the Model T days, using your car every day, and no hard seats, and two piece valves, 3 Months is about it for the next valve job.

The valve seat on the valve is plenty deep for 3,000 miles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 02:35 pm:

It looks like the valve you show has carbon on the seat. That would indicate the valve is not seating properly. It should be clean where it contacts the block. You might have weak valve springs, or too little clearance between the valve stem and the valve lifter.

I would replace all valves and valve springs. Get oversize valve stems on the new valves and ream the guides to fit. Get someone well experienced to do the valve work. You might need to replace the seats in the block. If you don't yet have adjustable lifters, they make it much easier to adjust the valve stem clearance. Otherwise, the valve and stem must be ground to fit, which is very time consuming, and you get one shot to do it right.

As for the gasoline, your car will run just fine on 87 octane. In fact that is even high for a Model T. Higher octane is wasted unless needed for a very high compression engine, which a Model T is not.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chester Leighton on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 07:39 pm:

I live in Lynchburg, Va. and drive the truck every week end. I only parade once a year for the local Christmas parade. The roads around here are pretty hilly and the weather is hot and humid. I have a motor meter and it indicates the engine is operating at or slightly below "normal" during the hottest days.The only time the engine runs too cool is in the early spring and late fall, it will register half way to "normal". When I take her out, I typically drive at least ten miles, and most trips are 40+ miles. There are weekends where I just use it to yard sale or do errands but I try to keep the short trips to a minimum. I have adjustable lifters and adjusted the valves to 0.010 intake and 0.012 exhaust. The first thing I did after checking compression was check valve clearance before pulling the head. Only one valve was miss adjusted at 0.009. The springs are original as well so I tend to agree that replacing them is a good idea, they may have contributed to the problems as stated above and as evidenced by the build up on the seats. The cylinders were bored and honed for the new pistons by my local engine re builder, there is only one in Lynchburg that would take on the job of a T block. The cylinder walls are mirror finish now. I put new rings in with the new pistons 3000 miles ago. Can I resurface the cylinder walls or do I have to re bore and put in bigger pistons and rings? I was thinking I could pull the pistons and lightly hone the cylinders to put a cross hatch back in it. I will add new springs to the parts list. How do I measure the ID of the valve guides to determine what the oversize of the new valve stem needs to be?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 09:00 pm:

Chester - My opinion, which may or may not be worth anything, so wait 'til you hear from a few guys more experienced than me. But again, my "opinion" FWIW:

You said the cylinders were bored and honed for the new .020 over pistons by your engine builder 3000 miles ago. That would mean to me that with those few miles, you have no taper and no out-of-round. If you're sure that the .020 over pistons were originally fitted properly by the engine builder, I would just hone the cylinders enough to clean them up, break the glaze, and leave a nice crosshatch pattern to be sure the new rings seat properly. Notice I said NEW RINGS! By all means, install new rings in the (for all practical purposes) new cylinders. This is about what you said in your last post Chester and I think you have the right approach.

As for the valve guides, if you think the new standard valves you're going to install would be questionable in the present guides (find a NEW valve someplace with standard size guides and try it in the guides) go ahead and order the valves with oversized stems and also order the appropriate reamer to ream the guides accordingly. I bought a NEWAY valve seat cutting outfit with an adjustable pilot and the proper cutters for a good 3-angle valve job and did the valve job myself on my '23 roadster and it worked great. If you don't want to go to this expense, have a pro do the valves, but I felt that the approx. $165.00 I spent for the NEWAY valve seat cutter outfit wasn't much more that what it would have cost to have a pro do my valves. YMMV,....hope this helps,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 09:12 pm:

Chester - I should have mentioned that when I ordered the NEWAY valve seat cutter outfit, NEWAY couldn't have been more helpful. The fellow I talked to knew exactly what cutters I'd need and he suggested the adjustable pilot and he was very careful to see that I bought only what components I needed, and nothing more. A great outfit to deal with! I think if you use the keyword function of this forum and search over the last couple years, you'll find lots of good information about NEWAY valve seat cutting equipment and other success stories like mine. I can tell you that the local Harley Davidson shop here in Tacoma, WA. has just one mechanic in their very large shop that does ALL of the valve work for their whole shop, and he is the one who put me onto NEWAY valve seat cutting equipment, and I figured that if it was good enough for $20.000.00 Harleys, it's good enough for Model "T" Fords, right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 02:30 am:

Oops! In the second line of the second paragraph of my first post above, I meant to say (find a NEW valve someplace with standard size valve stems and try it in the guides)...sorry....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Wicker on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 06:31 am:

I bought a Neway valve kit back in 86 to use on 5hp briggs racing kart engines. Very nice tool.
Glad to hear there still in business!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 10:20 am:

I'm not sure this was addressed above. The valves look like the original Ford valves. Those valves are known for breaking off and causing damage to the cylinders.

It is also entirely possible that the valve guides are so worn in your block that it allows oil to be sucked up from the valve chamber into the valve ports and that is the source of the carbon on the valve heads. It could also cause lean mixture on certain cylinders, so that no matter how you adjust the carburetor, you will be drawing more air into one or more cylinders.

Replacing the valves with oversize stems and reaming the guides for proper fit will fix all three problems.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 01:30 pm:

Chester, from the photo, I can guess that two of the biggest contributing factors are:

1) That you are running with the fuel mixture slightly too rich. I am guessing that it may have run okay, but would run just as well if you closed the fuel mixture 1/8 to 1/4 turn? Even 1/8 turn makes a noticeable difference in fuel economy and carbon buildup.

2) That you are using a non-detergent oil.

What caused your engine to start running rough is that some of the exhaust valves appear "burned" (they are not sealing as they should). The valves likely burned for one/some/all of the following reasons: They are old original worn out valves, carbon buildup, debris, overheating, loose valve heads, timing not advanced enough, weak valve springs, valve clearance too tight valve guides are excessively worn.

Install new stainless valves, making sure that the stem clearance is not too sloppy. You will have to ream the valve guides out to the next oversize and install oversize valves if the stems are too sloppy because one of your excessive carbon problems could be that your guides are worn so much that you are sucking too much oil past the intake valve stems. The valve seats in the block will need to be ground clean to make an acceptable seat in the block. Find someone in your area that has a valve seat grinding fixture that can grind the seats with the engine in the car. With new stainless valves that fit the guides properly, and with seats properly ground & lapped, you shouldn't have any more problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chester Leighton on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 08:07 am:

Harold, I've been looking at the Neway web site, reading their instruction manual and comparing prices and I think you're right about them. It looks like a great quality set up. Do you know what cutters and pilots you purchased? I plan to use the 1/64 oversize valve stem valves as replacements. Do you remember what you used? I would like to have a point of reference when I call them to order my stuff. What oinformation about the engine and valves should I have ready when I call them? Thanks.

I have another question for the group about the rings. When I pull the pistons and re hone the cylinder, it's possible the ring end gap will be too wide then. I'm running 0.020 over size pistons so could I buy 0.030 rings and then set the end gap?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike dixon on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 08:30 am:

how bout a pinto engine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 12:27 pm:

"it's possible the ring end gap will be too"

When you hone it to deglaze the cylinders you don't usually remove much material. I wouldn't worry about the ring end gap, unless the gap is way up there, like .040" or .050" or more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 09:03 pm:

Chester - Sorry it took me all day to respond, but our local Model T Club had our monthly Saturday morning breakfast meeting this morning, and then one of the guys had a "work party" at his garage for anyone who wanted to "attend" and possibly contribute to a club effort to help him get a "rust bucket" Model T running that has been setting idle for a long time. Anyway, this is one of my favorite club activities and it was a fun day. And by the way, we did not quite get the ol' girl running, but we sure got it to fire and smoke a bit, and because the electric starter needs to be rebuilt, a bunch of us old guys kind of "ran out of steam" with the necessary hand cranking. General consensus was that it's gonna' run, but we'll either have to tow it to get it started (after new brakes are installed) or get it started after the starter motor is rebuilt.
Now then, about the Neway valve seat cutter equipment:

My outfit is not presently in my shop, so I can't lay my hands on it right now to give you exact answers as to Neway Part Numbers for which cutters I have. However, I can tell you this; when I called Neway, I thought I knew exactly what I needed, however, as I mentioned, the fellow I talked to knew EXACTLY what I needed. He advised me to order the adjustable pilot (instead of the size pilot I THOUGHT I needed) and I told him that I wanted whatever cutters I needed to cut a three-angle valve seat. That is, a 45 degree valve seat, with a 30 degree cutter for relief on one side of the 45 degree valve seat, and 60 degree relief on the other side of the valve seat. He totally agreed with this and knew EXACTLY what cutters I needed. One cutter has two of those angles (you just turn the cutter over and use the carbide cutters on the other side of the same cutter) and the second cutter I ordered is just a single one with carbide cutter blades on one side. I'm sorry, but I can't quite remember which angle cutters are on the which of the two cutters. In other words, all I needed was three pieces; the one double cutter and the second one which has carbide on just the one side, and then the adjustable pilot. These three pieces came in a nice case which contained the tools necessary to clean, adjust the replaceable carbide blades and a little booklet with full instructions.

I'm sorry I can't give you Neway part numbers for these components right now but if you need more info than this, just let me know and I'll get it for you as soon as I can. In the meantime, just tell the Neway guy, "Model T Ford", 45 degree valve seat and a 3-angle valve job and an adjustable pilot. They'll fix you up Chester,.....I'm sure,.......harold

P.S. I could have answered you with a "PM" Chester, but I thought that perhaps someone else that's following your thread here on this forum might benefit from the Neway info.


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