Rebuilt Front Axles

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Rebuilt Front Axles
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 07:38 pm:

I put an ad up for rebuilt front axles I will have at Hershey. Thanks, Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 06:41 am:

bump


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 06:53 am:

Maybe you should include this info here from the ad:
"If you want one get there early and bring a core. Spaces are CR33."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jared Buckert on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 10:58 am:

What is the going rate for a rebuilt front axle?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 11:35 am:

What is a rebuilt front axle.
Are we talking about rebushed spindle bolts?? Springs included??? rebushed????
Wish bone with rebuilt ball????
Drag link with Apco ends??
Tie rods with Apco ends????
The list can get long as to what a rebuilt is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 02:10 pm:

These are front axles only, Part # 2691. Upper and lower kingpin holes repaired with Stevens tool. Also, bushing faces have been faced. Blasted and primed.


NOT REBUILT FRONT AXLE Assy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 02:13 pm:

Price??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 02:22 pm:

Is it aligned per the MTFCA front/rear axle book? Like 2 rods in the kingpin holes and 2 rods in the spring perch holes and all 4 made to be in a straight line


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 02:42 pm:

That is 1/2 of it, what about the other 1/2 of the job?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 07:49 pm:

OK, I'll bite.....

Oh wise and powerful Herm,
What is the "other 1/2 of the job" that you are referring to?

Eric


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 08:10 pm:

Like 2 rods in the kingpin holes and 2 rods in the spring perch holes and all 4 made to be in a straight line."END QUOTE"

That would only make it half way done, or checked out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 08:34 pm:

Don't stroke his ego.:-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Harper - Keene, NH on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 08:36 pm:

I'm guessing that the "other half of the job" could be that all of the rods are parallel?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Harper - Keene, NH on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 08:50 pm:

I'm guessing that the "other half of the job" could be that all of the rods are parallel?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 09:32 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 10:32 pm:

no good deed goes unpunished.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 11:27 pm:

The rods should have cones on them, or they will not find true center.

If you use nuts like in the picture, the rods will shift to the sides of the bolt holes, and the two readings will be off.

I will take a picture of the cones, so even Davis will get it.

So I think I will go now and stroke my ego , as I just found my old 45 RPM stroken record.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 07:22 am:

Well, I see you looked up 'Ego'. You even spelled it right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jared Buckert on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 10:17 am:

Dan, I'm glad you clarified. I was wondering exactly what you had. Sorry the thread seems to have taken a bitter turn. Or maybe I'm just missing the sarcastic tone.

How much are you charging for these good axles? I'm sure there are plenty of people here who'd be willing to pay a fair price for a nice axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 11:20 am:

Yep. I have no idea when you guys are just joking around because you know each other. I hope so.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 02:45 pm:

Amazing how much a guy can learn from this forum, even when it becomes "bitter"!

I had to look up "ego" too! Heck, I thought they were talking about toaster waffles! As in,...."lego my ego"!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jon Crane on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 03:05 pm:

Great Stuff.
I looked at the Kohnke wall and will make up a set of the axle alignment rods. I also have an alignment tool hanging on my shop wall. What are the adjustable triangles used for?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 07:57 pm:

What are the adjustable triangles used for?"END QUOTE"

I am not sure what you are calling an adjustable triangle Jon.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 08:18 pm:

Just a question for anyone who might chime in. With Herm's rods in place, centred correctly with the cones, should all 4 rods should be parallel?

I can understand them needing to be parallel looking from the end of the axle along its length so that there is no twist. From the front, I can understand the perch hole rods needing to be parallel, although this is hardly critical.

If the king pin rods are parallel from the front, then caster on the front wheels must be a function built into the spindles. Is this so?

Given that caster adjustments were made by chaining down the axle while fitted to the car and then bending it with a jack, should the fitting of one of Dan's re-built axles come with a recommendation that caster be checked once the axle has been fitted?

Please advise.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Wolf on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 08:26 pm:

With his attitude, does anyone hire this Herm from Kohnke Rebabbiting to do anything?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 08:54 pm:

Oops!!!! In my questions above I asked if caster was a function of the spindles. That should read CAMBER.

With apologies.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Hoffman - Gold Country of Calif. on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 10:04 pm:

I don't know if anyone hires Herm for his attitude, but I'll bet a lot of people hire him for his quality work which is the number one priority in my opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 11:56 pm:

I know several sources I can go to that do superb work without the "attitude". I for one will continue with those folks that I can also respect on a personal level.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 03:00 am:

Well, Berdan and Wolf, if you two Numb Nuts could read posts, you would see where the "Attitude" came from!

With his attitude, does anyone hire this Herm from Kohnke Rebabbiting to do anything?"EVD QUOTE"

I don't know how to answer that Wolf. You will have to wait until Feburary first, 2014 to see if any more work comes in after that time.




Allen, the twist, and bend are equally important, as you can't have a straight axle with only one.

I normally use chalk line also like Ed's picture, and go down further about 12" from the bottom, and go around the two end rods, and use a wire hook in the middle on the other side, to tie in the string ends. You can tell instantly where it is out.

Then you measure the gap about an inch from the bottom between the two perch rods, and then about 12 to 15 inches towards the top, and the measurements should be the same.

Then do both out sides of the axle from the perches to the King pin rods. These are the hardest to bend as the distance is short, and gives a 75 ton Wilson press a run for its money.

should the fitting of one of Dan's re-built axles come with a recommendation that caster be checked once the axle has been fitted?"END QUOTE"

Dan, I know is quite capable of rebuilding anything. I know he is very particular with his machine work, and has much knowledge in Model
T's. It will be what ever he tells you it is.

And no, you don't have to check anything unless he tells you different, just install it.

Straightening an axle out of the car is the best way.

If you do it in the car, and to get the axle to come out where you want it, It's normally is the wish bone that catches all the bending, and I just can't see where that is any good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 07:48 am:

Thank you for the explanation Herm. I know Dan has a great reputation for excellent work.

My main concern was with getting the correct camber. If the axle needs to be absolutely straight and all the holes true and in parallel with each other, then the camber must be set by the spindles. I have always checked the camber in the car and adjusted it accordingly. It would be nice to have an absolutely true front axle to work with and then run the check on the camber.

Your last sentence about the wishbone catching all the bending puzzles me a bit. The wishbone is deliberately bent to get the correct caster, but I have not had that problem setting the camber by bending the axle. My panel shop owner may have had a lot to do with that. He can make his frame rack talk!

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 07:56 am:

Allan, the castor is set by the angle of the perches, that is what the little nub on the top shows, it is always at the rear. Herm is making a true statement in saying that bending the axle on the car usually only bends the wishbone as it will give sooner. If you have a way to hold the axle you can bend it on the car but why do so. If the axle is that bad out, it is not that big a job to pull it off and do the job right. MHO, KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 08:21 am:

Hi Keith. I understand that the castor is set by the perches. I was more concerned with the camber.
It would be nice to have perfectly aligned axles and and a pair of true perches so that installation of these parts would result in a perfectly true front end.

However, we are dealing with 'experienced' frames, front cross members, springs, wishbones, spindles and axles. I was just suggesting that given Dan's good work truing the axle, there might still be a need to check the installation in each car, given the variables thrust upon us by the many years of use our cars have seen. These adjustments were made in the car in the days when Ts were in regular service. They can still be used to compensate for the vagaries of long years of use and abuse.

Hope this explains where I am coming from.

My question about the spindles setting the camber still stands.

Just seeking wisdom.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 09:40 am:

Allan -- Yes, the camber is in the spindles. The pre-'26 spindles have twice as much camber as the '26-7 ones. They were changed in '26 to make the cars easier to steer with the wider tires.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 09:51 am:

Alan
The camber is in the perches. Ford changed the spec over the years. Two degrees was used some of the time. I don't think it matters a lot on the T. It looks a lot better if the left and right are the same but I would NOT try to "adjust"(bend) them!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 10:27 am:

Let me begin be correcting my earlier posting; The camber is NOT in the perches, it is in the spindles as Mike says (brain fart)!!

The design of rods that Ed has pictured may be just fine (contrary to Herm's opinion)!!. The rods in the king pin holes appear to be fitting nicely (just like a king pin). If the rods in the perch holes have a similar fit (closely in the hole with no discernible "play") then they will also be acceptable. I can think think of four ways this could be accomplished;
1. Make a couple of sleeves that fit nicely in the perch holes and that the rods fit nicely in (no obvious clearance).
2. Find some wheel lug nuts with tapers that fit the perch holes and that thread onto the rods.
3. Make some "cones" (triangles?) like Herm has (similar in function to #2)
4. Find rods that fit nicely in the perch holes.

Alan
I appreciate your comment about the "experienced" parts we have to use. I suggest that for something as important as the front suspension and steering that a person start with a nicely straightened axle and then straighten the wishbone to fit it (rather than the other way around).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 10:40 am:

Thanks Mike. It had to be in the spindles if the axle holes are all in parallel in all dimensions, but I had seen no reference to it.

Les, I think you did as I did at first, confused camber and castor.

When I started my 1915 speedster I found a dropped front axle which also had a delightful downward curve between the perch holes. It had been installed under a horse drawn vehicle, up side down to increase the ride height. When I set it up in the frame it had quite noticeable negative camber. I corrected this by tying the axle down on a frame rack and jacking the axle beam to bend it to suit. I was surprised how easy it was to make the required bend.

I was equally surprised to find out how easy it was to correct an over bend. Silly me induced 3" of camber on EACH wheel rather than the correct
1 1/2" each side for a total of 3"!

Having had to do these adjustments, I have used this method subsequently. The only drawback for anybody doing it is having the facility to chain the axle down.

Hope this may be of help to some one some time.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Art Wilson on Sunday, September 08, 2013 - 02:44 am:

Once the perfectly aligned axle is installed, the car may want to constantly drift towards the edge of the road. This is usually due to the roads being crowned in the center. The solution to this problem is to add more caster to the side of the axle that is closest to the edge of the road or lessen the caster to the crown side of the road.
This can be accomplished by twisting the axle while it is in the car, which is not difficult as the axle twists quite easily. I have done it with two pipe wrenches with extended handles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Sunday, September 08, 2013 - 09:16 am:

Les, I am still not entirely with you. Given a nice straight axle to start with, bending the wishbone will not alter the camber. It will effect castor.

Have I missed something?

With true spindles and a nice straight axle, I gather that the camber will be set at the recommended 3" difference between the top of the wheels and the bottom. If not, then the axle needs to be bent to make any adjustment. By doing this in the car individual idiosyncrasies are catered for. The chain goes around the axle as near to the king pin as possible and jacking pressure applied at or near the perch nut. There is no bending of the wishbone in this procedure. For too much camber the chain and jacking points are swapped.

Somewhere in my readings I have found this operation to be the accepted way to make camber adjustments, just as a large bending bar over the axle beam is the accepted method to adjust castor in the car.

I need to go looking.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, September 08, 2013 - 12:30 pm:

Alan
Nope you are not missing anything. Having spent waaaay to much time analyzing the T front axle in the course of my front brake project, I have reached the conclusion that mostly the camber in the stock T front axle makes the car look "right" (keeps it from looking knock-kneed). It probably has a minor effect on steering effort. Now on my '27 with front brakes, camber is very important as now have "centre-point" steering (and almost no caster). But that is irrelevant to this discussion.

Now I will caution you about bending the axle to create camber. The T is designed to have the kingpins parallel to each other. Consider the tie rod ends are simple pin hinges that are designed to flex in only one plane. About 1928 when everybody went to front brakes and tilted kingpins to get "centre-point" steering they also went to ball type tie rod ends so they could flex in both planes.

The T camber is in the spindles only based on my research.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, September 08, 2013 - 12:32 pm:

Art
That is a interesting concept. Coming from you I will totally accept it as being well thought out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Sunday, September 08, 2013 - 01:16 pm:

Art is correct, the factory alignment specs for my 1971 Plymouth GTX call out different caster settings for each side to counteract a pull due to road crown.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, September 08, 2013 - 06:45 pm:

Several years ago, there was a discussion here about the camber in the spindles. They were saying that the amount of camber was all over the board. Don't remember now whether the tolerances were loose, or they had measured some NOS ones or what, but they were confident that the factory camber in the spindles varied greatly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, September 08, 2013 - 07:05 pm:

Art
So about how much more caster on the ditch side have you found works best?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Sunday, September 08, 2013 - 09:30 pm:

So what about the notion of not jacking the T at the middle of the front axle to avoid deforming it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Art Wilson on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 12:32 am:

Les
I tried measuring the difference in caster on my car and found very little difference but that was with very crude measurements. I can't give you a good answer on that.
I think the amount of normal caster and the weight on the front axle along with many other factors would affect the needed difference in caster for any given car.


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