T Body date stamped in wood?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: T Body date stamped in wood?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Sunday, September 08, 2013 - 03:02 pm:

Does anyone else have the body date stamped in the wood under the seat contain a Letter instead of all numbers. If so what is it. My 1914 T Roadster has 3 M 14. Not sure what the M means. The engine # is 395707. Thanks Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By roy palmer on Sunday, September 08, 2013 - 03:13 pm:

Morgan Body Co.??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, September 08, 2013 - 09:49 pm:

Roy – I’m always open to learning additional information about the Model Ts. I have not previously heard of a Morgan Body Co. supplying bodies to Ford Motor Company. If you have any additional information on that or if you could let us know why you suggested that company, please let us know. We never know which lead may turn out to be a good one or a dead end until we investigate it.

Mark – first the very easy answer. You asked “ Does anyone else have the body date stamped in the wood under the seat contain a Letter instead of all numbers. If so what is it. My 1914 T Roadster has 3 M 14. Not sure what the M means. The engine # is 395707. Thanks Mark

The answer to that is yes – many of the cars had a letter and numbers. For example please the earliest Beaudett body number that I have a picture of is from the rear seat of a 1908 Model S Roadster.

Many of the Beaudett, Wilson, Hayes or Herbert depending on the year, Fisher stamped the bodies with their letter (i.e. B; W; H; or F).

I do not have time to repost a lot of the photos as it is time to retire for the night. But here is a sample of them: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/384103.html 1912 with FBCO for Fisher Body Company (or at least we are 90% sure that is what it stands for).

David Dare’s USA 1913 Wilson bodied touring (yes, now located in Australia).

Dan Killecut 1913 Fisher with only an “F” rather than the 1912 FBCO at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/101075.html?1255968626


Several body numbers at the thread: Forum posting “Home for the Holidays” at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html

What those other body numbers to NOT have is a “M” between the month and the year or other letter between the month and the year.

Now the more difficult question – what does the “M” mean?

Note sometimes it is helpful to give folks the links to the previous discussions on a car. In this case your car was discussed back in Feb 2013 at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/365567.html
I looked at that thread again and also reviewed some of the other body information I have seen over the past few years. If anyone else has an “M” stamped into the body would and especially between what appears to be the month and the year – that would be great to know.

As I mentioned in the earlier thread – I still do not know why some of the cars are stamped with both an “M” and a “B” on the front seat heel panel (on a touring it might also be on a rear seat heel panel). My current theory for the past 5 years continues to be that both the Monroe Body Company and the Beaudett Body Company (also spelled Beaudette and also referred to as Pontiac in most Ford records) were located in Pontiac Michigan. And that perhaps [that is the theory part] they either produced body panels for the other company or perhaps they subcontracted to produce bodies for the other body company. In the case of the “M” stamped into the wood seat frame it might indicate that Monroe assembled that body even though the front seat heel panel has a “M” and “B” stamped into it. In the thread mentioned above the factory paper tags that came with a 1914 and were date stamped Apr 21, 1914. (Used by permission from the May-Jun 1971 “Vintage Ford” pages 5-11 article. Also that was reprinted within the last several years in the “Vintage Ford” with an update on the car.)





If they had listed Monroe as one of the “Finishers” – it would have fit nicely with the “M” represented Monroe was the “Finisher” for that body. But notice that Monroe is “NOT” listed as a Finisher! So that doesn’t fit there at all. So with a single data point we or at least “I” do not have enough data to see a trend.


Again if anyone has another car with “M” stamped into the wood please let us know (or let us know again if that is appropriate). So much more still to rediscover.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 12:00 am:

Thanks Hap. I didn't even put together the M (B) on the kick panel and the M in the date ( 3 M 14) stamped on the wood. It makes sense now. I think so hard I sometimes can't see the trees for the forest. You have great knowledge of our T's and love your informative responses. Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 06:47 am:

Mark -- thanks for the kind words -- others would caution you “Don’t encourage him...”

We all have different parts of the puzzle. Thank you for sharing those photos and questions. I hope someday we will have enough puzzle pieces or someone will discover some additional documentation so we will definitely know why some of the cars have both the "M" and "B" stamped into the metal heel panel and why your car has the "M" also stamped between what appears to be the month and the year of the body number.

Does anyone know of another 1913-1916 with an "M" also stamped into the wood of the seat frame? Do any of our posters live near Pontiac Mich? If so, if they could check to see if the local library or historical society has additional information on the Monroe Body Company and Beaudett Body Company back in those times that might give us some additional clues. Especially if we could find out if they did or did not share any body panels or subcontracted with each other at different times etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 08:29 am:

Just a side note....reading about Fisher Body...while I don't know of the exact beginning of the Fisher family, I do know some (one?) of them resided in in the town next to me, in Norwalk Ohio. The local hospital is named after the family, "Fisher-Titus"...as they gave lots of money to start it from what I"ve been told. Just a little history. I used to do business with one of the descendants who operated a transmission shop in that town, and a shirt-tail relative also worked for me. Pretty cool!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Jesteadt on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 08:44 am:

This is topic in which, I have much interest I have a very original 14 touring one exception the power plant is 21 , was told that was common practice back in the day from what I can piece together it was done prior to the 50's the only thing I can find is { F 8 14 2314 5 } stamped under seat .I've typed just as it appears .I sure would appreciate knowledgeable info.Thanks, Rich J


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 09:22 am:

Could it be m as in month?? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 12:11 pm:

Hap,

Here is my February 1912 Torpedo body number. You can see to the right of it a faint capital letter M.

As you can see below Monroe body company made open bodys from 1908 to 1911. I take that to mean my early 1912 body was made in late 1911.

What follows is a chart of OEM Ford Model T & TT Body Suppliers with approximate dates each firm worked with Ford.



Manufacturer

Specialty/Body Type

Years


American Auto Trimming

Paint & Trim

1909-27


American Body

Open Bodies

1911-22


American Motor Body

Closed Bodies, Center Door Sedan

1920-23


OJ Beaudette

Open Bodies, Delivery Wagon

1910-22


Briggs

Open & Closed Bodies, Fenders, Sheet Metal

1909-27


Budd

Fenders, Sheet Metal

1915-27


Detroit

Open Bodies

1908-15


BF Everitt

Open Bodies

1908-09


Everitt Bros

Open Bodies

1912-27


Fisher Body

Open & Closed Bodies, Center Door Sedan

1908-23


Wm. Gray

Open Bodies

1908-12


Hayes Mfg

Fenders, Sheet Metal

1908-24


Kahler Mfg

Open Bodies

1915-21


Kelsey-Herbert

Open & Closed Bodies

1910-14


Midland Steel

Frames, Sheet Metal

1910-27


Milburn

Delivery Wagon

1911-12


Monroe Body

Open Bodies

1908-11


Murray

Open & Closed Bodies

1913-27


Towson

Open & Closed Bodies

1908-24


Trippensee

Open Bodies

1908-22


Widman

Millwork & Trim

1908-24


CR Wilson

Open & Closed Bodies

1908-24


Wilson-Hayes

Fenders, Sheet Metal

1908-16


Wadsworth

Closed Bodies, Center Door Sedan







Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By roy palmer on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 02:22 pm:

Yes, I can see the M. Interesting that Marks "M" is within the number


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 09:35 pm:

Rich,

You shared above your 1914 touring has “{ F 8 14 2314 5 } stamped under seat .I've typed just as it appears .”

Please clarify if it has the “{ }” brackets around the number. I have not seen one with “brackets” around it before so I would like to confirm it does have them or that it doesn’t have them and you were using them to enclose the numbers.

If it is like several of the other “F” body numbers the 8 14 would be for Aug 1914.

The “F” would normally represent Fisher Body Company but earlier some of the cars used F B CO and some of the later cars have the F B CO on the underside of the original floorboards.

Below is Howard’s Dad’s 1914 touring with F 2 14 137250 stamped into the front seat frame. Notice that the “F” is larger than the numbers. The engine number would have been recorded on the Feb 28, 1914 engine production logs.

Is the letter “F” in your body number larger than the numbers as shown below or is it the same size as the numbers or something else?





Note in general the body date code if present, is usually with in several of months of the engine log date. There are some know exceptions of apparently original cars with known histories where there are approximately 9 months between the engine log date and the body date. In the case of Erik’s unrestored 1917 roadster it appears the body was manufactured in Aug 1916 but the engine serial number would be from the May 25, 1917 log pages. But it also has the upholstery style used in Aug 1917. So apparently that body was not upholstered and installed until May or possibly Jun 1917. Based on the history of the car and where it was sold new, it is likely that it was assembled at the was most likely assembled in Minneapolis, Minnesota Ford Branch Plant.

Normally there is not that large of a gap between the body date and the engine serial number date. and if produced at the Highland Park plant the engine would have been produced that day. If the parts were shipped to a different assembly plant and assembled there the engine number would have been stamped onto the block at the branch plant after the engine was assembled using the number sent to them from the main plant. They could have been assembled and stamped with that number days or possibly weeks later. [Ref page 501 top paragraph of column 2 of Bruce McCalley’s “Model T Ford” available from the club at: http://modeltstore.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/model-t-ford-the-car-that-changed-the-world note that is a soft copy version and also vendors. Also an updated version with additional information is available as a CD see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/333725.html?1357665853 ].


An Aug 1914 body could have easily been installed on an Aug – Sep 1914 car. Note it could also have been installed at a branch in Aug and potentially had a engine serial number from Jul if the engine had been assembled at the branch.

You can use Bruce’s book, CD, or on line encyclopedia at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/intro.htm [much of the same text but only a small portion of the photos and tables] to help document that your car had only the engine and/or engine and transmission swapped out. You would be looking for the Aug – Sep 1914 features listed and noting exceptions. For example all the latches would operate vertically on your 1914 rather than horizontally as the later 1916-1925 door latches. And the 1916-1925 could be installed on your car to replace a worn 1914 – early 1916 style horizontal door latch.

Again if anyone knows of an "M" stamped body around the 1913-1915 time frame -- please let us know.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 09:58 pm:

I thought I knew the assembly date on my 14 based on the engine number. Hap has given me excellent info over many posts. I wonder if there are very many T's that can be accurately dated as to day of assembled? My numbers are spread out over app. three months. I am sure it was assembled in Seattle Washington.
These are the numbers on my 1914 T Run About.
Engine # 395707 12/16/1913
Firewall Plaque # 371928 11/13/1913
Engine Cast date 11/22/13 (50 years to the day before President Kennedy was assassinated.)
Stamped on wood under seat #131351...3 M 14
Kick Plate has stamped into it M B
The documentation of owners with the T is:
Mr. Templin Marlin Washington 1914 - 1930
Mr. Birge Odessa Washington 1930 - 1988
Mr. Batelan (Mr. Birge's Nephew) 1988 - 2004
Myself 2004 -


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 10:23 pm:

Mark,

Serial number 1 manufactured Sep 27, 1908 and shipped 1 Oct 1908. Serial numbers 1,119 assembled Mar 3, 1909 to approximately serial number 70,702 manufactured Sep 29, 1911 have the date of manufacture and the date of shipping recorded in the shipping ledgers at the Benson Ford Archives. A small subset of those numbers along with related information is published on pages 475 to 499 of Bruce McCalley's book. And for anyone fortunate enough to have one of those serial numbers they can request a copy of the shipping ledger from the Benson Ford Archives. For $20 anyone can request a copy of the microfilm image of the original shipping document (also referred to as “production record”)from the Benson Ford Archives for car (engine number) 41609. See: http://www.thehenryford.org/research/productionRecords.aspx and you can order any shipping document between engine serial number 1,119 to 70,920.

There is always more to discover and thank you all for your help. We are blessed that Floyd Clymer, Ray Miller, Bruce McCalley and others have given us so much information for us to build upon and that we do not have to start from scratch in where to look etc.

Mark if you really wanted to pursue it there is about a 18-20 percent chance that your car's serial number is recorded in what are called the accounts receivable ledgers. But they are organized by the dealer name or the branch name or in a few cases the individual the car was shipped to (that is normally for the early Fords rather than the later Fords). They have approximately 18-20 percent of the serial numbers along with the date the car was shipped. That runs through 1914 and would include a few of the very early 1915 models that were produced in calendar year 1914. If I remember correctly it did not go into calendar year 1915 -- but it may have just a month or so. The problem -- they are poorly written and NOT organized by serial number but by dealer/branch and shipping date. So it takes a lot of time to find your car and in approximately 80% of the cases the car is not listed because several of the ledgers are missing.

Please keep those body numbers and body letters coming....

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 10:25 pm:

Greg,

Thank you so much for posting the body number and letter of your 1912 Torpedo. At this time based on limited information, I would think the “M” stands for Monroe. But a closer look at the manufactures may turn up something else.

Please verify if your list of “OEM Ford Model T & TT Body Suppliers with approximate dates each firm worked with Ford” came from the Coachbuilt site or some other location. From memory – it reminds me of the information they have posted.

Note, we all have so much more to learn and share about the cars and body makers etc. And I know my own posting have errors [I wish we could edit the postings – perhaps some day in the future we will be able to do that. In the mean time – if I discover an error or someone is kind enough to point it out before the posting is closed – I will usually try to post a correction.] In the case of the listing for Monroe – they have listed

“Monroe Body

Open Bodies

1908-11

But we know that Monroe is listed as a body maker on the 1914 tags that came with the new 1914 and are shown earlier in this posting. We also know that we have “M” marked heel panels on cars after 1912. So I believe there is a good chance Monroe continued to supply Ford and/or stopped and then continued to supply them again later.

When you share your 1912 is an early body, do you mean it has the firewall with the filler board for the windshield rather than the later single piece firewall that the windshield was mounted directly to?

Note 1912 can be a controversial period to try and date when a car, engine, or body was produced. It is fairly easy to indentify the later 1912 smooth sided touring bodies as 1912s but the carry over 1911 style bodies if they are missing the engine can be much harder to call. Additionally the engine production records are missing for the 1912 time frame. One of my “to do items” is to eventually gather more of the engine numbers along with their corresponding shipping dates so we can better judge when the cars were shipped. Note for 1912, Ford was not yet assembling the cars at the Branch Plants as he would in just another year or so. For additional details on the dating issue of 1912 bodies and engines please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/119926.html and scroll down to the part about the 1912 engine serial numbers vs dates.

Again thank you so much for posting the photo and information about your Torepedo body number. Hopefully as we add additional information we will be able to establish some trends that will help us in the future.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 10:45 pm:

Hap,

The Torpedo is a second week February car. I am assuming that means early 12, because my other two 1912’s are an August touring and a B engine Torpedo and I think of them as later '12's.

It is a one piece firewall. The engine number is 93159

The data plate is 89128

Yes, the info I posted came from the Coachbuilt site.

I wonder, if perhaps, the M could also stand for Murray because, though it says for Murray, 1913-27 , the list is prefaced by saying “approximate dates”. So I suppose Murray could have built open bodies in 1912 as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - 07:11 am:

Greg,

Several of the companies listed on the Coachbuilt site as supplying bodies to Ford are not listed in other places. That does not prove that the list is inaccurate or accurate, but it does mean that some of those suppliers are not substantiated by other sources. That is one more area for additional research. The Coachbuilt site has lots of good information compiled from many different sources and provides additional leads on where and what to look for. Note that they list

Murray

Open & Closed Bodies

1913-27

But that Murray is NOT listed on either of the original 1914 tags shown above as a body supplier. Again, not proof that Murray did not supply any bodies, but not any support that they did supply them during 1914.

Thank you for clarifying your car is the one piece dash on your 1912 torpedo.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Jesteadt on Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - 09:52 am:

Hap THANKS !-- for the reply. after your reply/ questions I checked again. the F and 14 are the same height I also noticed that I omitted a numeral it is 23014 5 Yes the brackets was my doing they do not appear on the car , also the 8 and 23014 5 are the same size but a tad bit smaller than the F and 14.
my door handles are veritical
there is a space between the 4 and 5 !!!
thank you, Rich J


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - 08:05 pm:

Richard thank you for the clarification.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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