I am considering purchasing the Fun projects Adjustable Modern Pinion Bearing Replacement.
I have one concern. While being driven, I think the thrust on the pinion and shaft would be forward. The only thing I see resisting this thrust is the collar and set screw.
Seems kinda puny to do the job, unless that forward thrust is really minimal.
Anyone with the Fun projects bearing had any trouble in this regard ?
I'm thinking the thrust is taken by a tapered roller bearing.
Hal is correct. The thrust is against the tapered bearing. The collar is just for bearing pre-load. Save yourself a couple bucks and go with the non-adjustable kit. Call John at Fun Projects and ask about the difference.
OK now I get it. Thrust is against tapered bearing, then to the spool which is tied to the pumpkin.
I talked with John about these a couple months ago and he encouraged me to go with the non-adjustable version. I have his units on two of my cars and have installed them for two friends. They set up easy and work great following easy instructions.
Of course the adjustable is fine too if you think you may need that feature.
I've had one in my '15 T since 2004, and I drive my T a lot. No problems what so ever.
Bud........with the factory setup the only thing controlling the depth of pinion mesh is the upper driveshaft bronze flange.
It doesn't take much of a bearing to improve on that....... ;)
The ball thrust bearing at the pinion end controls "push".......the bronze flange at the other end controls "pull".
My '27 Tudor needs a new upper bushing.......can't wait till my guy has some time.
I was on tour with the Hillbilly tour in Eureka Springs and I didn't have any access for a week to visit here so I missed this question. It was explained correctly by Hal and Kenny. With a straight bevel gear the thrust is always in the same direction whether braking or powering. Basically the ring gear is always trying to spit the pinion gear up and toward the engine.
I am back in the shop so if you have any questions you can drop me an email or call.
Hi Bud, I too chose the non-adjustable bearing and it was a snap to install and trouble free ever since. Just follow John's easily understood directions.
Hope that helps with your decision- W
Our two biggest problems were:
1. Being able to tighten the set screw on the collar. It is a very tight fit to get the allen wrench in there to tighten the collar.
2. Once it was together all seemed fine. Later we heard a grinding sound and kept wondering what we did wrong. It turns out the drive shaft tube was rubbing the set screw. It took a while to figure out that was the problem.
Thanks for the photo and description. I'll be needing one of these soon too. I just wish you wouldn't have used the word "snap"; it made me wince. (see the thread "engine runs but T won't move")
Wayne, in the first picture, what is the little piece laying next to the drive shaft nut?
Cut down Woodruff key.
That's the Woodruff key that's been ground on one end to fit so it doesn't protrude out of the back side of the pinion gear.
Bud, you type faster than me...
If Henry could have foreseen this simple design, he could have knocked another $10 off the price!
You are correct sirs...a woodruff key cut down per the instructions.
Always use the correct tool to make fine adjustments.
Highly paid professional display hands !!
I checked set screw and collar clearance here before final assy.
Have fun Bud !!!
A ball end allen wrench might make the job easier. I have a FP pinion bearing in Karen's Touring, but it has been a few years since I did that job. I don't remember having any problems with it, but then again, I don't remember a lot of things.
Couple things. If you are going to use a ball end Allen wrench, grind a little off the end or it can slip. It is easier for me to put a bend in the wrench that comes with it. Better access and holds better. I chuck the set screw up in my lathe and shorten it up a little. After I get it tight, I take my air mini belt grinder and level the edge of the set screw with the collar.
Do NOT use a new standard Woodruff key in any pinion keyway. The standard key is several thousandths taller than the Ford key and can hold the pinion gear a few thousandths away from seating. NO key is strong enough to handle the shear of the pinion unless it is seated on the taper. There is a reason that end of the drive shaft is tapered. I install the key in the slot, install the gear and mark it so there is no part of the key out past the end of the pinion. I then grind it (don't overheat the key and anneal it as it is a tempered key and can be made soft from overheating - use a flap disk grinder to keep it cool) to take the minimum off to allow the gear to seat. After I install the gear, I stand the drive shaft on the square end, install the nut snug and with a socket big enough to clear the nut setting on the face of the pinion, give it two or three mighty smacks with a BFH. This will seat the gear on the taper. If you are using a new drive shaft you can do this before you install the bearing package. If you are using an old drive shaft, (make sure the tapers match as many are badly worn) you have to put the lock sleeve and pinion carrier on before the pinion gear. Before pulling the pinion carrier and lock sleeve into position, check to make sure the taper is seated. Many times on an old shaft the pinion will not seat. Take the nut off. If you can pull the pinion gear off or turn it by hand you are taking your life in your hands to run it like that. The key can shear. Again, it is the mating of the tapers that gives the connection the strength. If it is tight, install the nut and torque it down hard. If you can't get the nut tight enough to put the pin through, do not loosen it. Either drill a new hole for the pin or MACHINE a little off the back of the nut. Do not just grind it by hand as you can not keep it flat and perpendicular to the threads and shaft. Most of the new nuts are crap. Some of the new drive shaft are soft. The threads in the new cheap nuts can strip but usually not the shaft threads. I use a 15 inch log wrench with 275 lbs of me hanging on the end bouncing up and down to tighten that nut. Do not just lock the square end in your vise. Put the shaft in your vise with the pinion carrier as close as you can get it to the vise. On the other side of the vise jaws, put a small pipe wrench so it is locked against the bench top. Get your big wrench on that nut and hang on the end of it an tighten it up. (This is one time us fat boys have an advantage over you skinny little twerps)
I save every old nut and use them if they are good because they are hardened, the new shiny ones appear to be grade 5 at best and are probably Chinese, I've stripped several of them, the more matte finished ones are better but not as good as Ford originals.
Set the drive shaft tube - which you should have so clean you can see metal all around inside - in your vise and take a good sized sanding drum and go around the inside of the end and clean it up. Many of them have welding spatter and the set screw can find a little piece to rub on and make a noise that will cause you to tear the whole thing down again. Check where the flange is welded to the tube to make sure it is not cracked.
Figure out which way you are going to turn the drive shaft grease cup - up or down. Just ahead of the flange where it mounts to the pinion on what will be the bottom side when it is installed, drill a 3/32nds hole to allow any oil that gets down the tube to drain.
INSTALL THE PIN in the drive shaft/u joint. Do not let it float. Installing the pin makes sure that the upper drive shaft bushing is not too long and holding the U joint ahead too far. If you have the pin in, it holds the U joint in the correct position so it doesn't bind. If it is too far ahead it makes the U joint bind every time it turns over and can force the U joint too far into the end of the transmission. Tis many the rear end rebuild that has ruined an engine rebuild because of this IMHO.
Make sure the bell is straight on the end of the tube. Many of them are bent down, up, sideways. You are putting a lot of strain on the back of the transmission if it is not straight. After you get the new bushing installed in the front and the pinion on the back, punch a hole in a heavy piece of paper, hold the paper up against the end of the tube and put the tapered end of a punch in the taper in the end of the shaft. Mark where the edge of the bell is, turn the paper and you can see if it is off. That's a pretty crude method - I have a wooden thing I made to do a better job of checking but the paper method will show you if you are off. If it is off you should look for a better tube.
Take your flap disk grinder and grind an eighth of an inch or so off the end of the bell so there is not a sharp edge there. A hundred years of wear will cause that front edge to be out of round. Take an old 4th main and stand the tube up, put the 4th main cap on and wiggle it around. Look for high spots and you will usually find it is out of round. Heat it with your hot wrench and smack the 4th main with your BFH and it will round it back in to shape. You may need to take your flap disk grinder and knock a few high spots down to get a good fit.
After you get the new upper bearing in, get the clearance set, etc, and before you install it in the differential, make an adapter to fit on the U joint and spin it up with you drill motor to make sure it all runs smooth and isn't rubbing anywhere. Easier to fix it now than later.
Back to the carb shop for the first time in a couple weeks, had a big auction last weekend, two days, two location, 250+ cars 200+ lots of parts, 11 employees, 600+ bidders, need a day in the shop to get back to my usual boring quiet life.
LOL at "BFH"
I called John Regan (Fun Projects) this morning for discussion and advice. I was very impressed as he took the time to discuss the improved bearing and he obviously had great enthusiasm for his product and for the T hobby in general.
I went on the his website and ordered mine shortly thereafter.
Thanks all for the great advice and especially for the pictures!
Ordered mine last night for my 16, hope it brings me many years of trouble free driving.
There are scads of "improvements" available for Model T's now, as there were 90 and 100 years ago. For the most part, Henry had it figured out pretty well. Most of the "improvements" are intended to increase the manufacturer's bottom line, not help your T. But the FP pinion bearing kit is one I use just about every time I'm rebuilding a car, whether it's for myself or for a customer. It is a definite improvement.
All of John's products are top notch.