Pulling the hogshead to replace bands

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Pulling the hogshead to replace bands
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Wilson on Thursday, September 12, 2013 - 09:54 pm:

The only thing keeping my '21 touring in the garage right now is the bands are shot. All of the bolts are out, the starter is out, the exhaust pipe has been dropped, ball cover backed off, and the hogshead will not quite lift off, it hits the exhaust manifold. a mere 1/4" clearance, and it would probably come off. I assume there is interference with the magneto coils, so it will not slide back enough to clear the exhaust manifold. Am I doing something wrong, or do I have to remove the exhaust manifold too? It has a '27 engine, and rear axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, September 12, 2013 - 10:01 pm:

If it's also a wide brake band '27 tranny, you shouldn't need to pull the hog to install new wood bands.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Wilson on Thursday, September 12, 2013 - 10:06 pm:

Maybe so, but from what I have read on the forum, and from other local T owners input, along with the frustration of just trying to get the first band out, it seemed like the better way to go, and now it has progressed to the point I am committed to this avenue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Thursday, September 12, 2013 - 10:34 pm:

Yes you need to remove the exhaust manifold. I remove both manifolds and the carburetor. I keep the carb bolted to the intake manifold and the exhaust pipe attached to the exhaust manifold. Its not much work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Wilson on Thursday, September 12, 2013 - 10:54 pm:

No it is not that much more effort to remove the manifold, but everything on a T I find is I move three steps forward, two steps back.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Thursday, September 12, 2013 - 11:33 pm:

Yep, just did a hogshead removal on a 15 and had to remove the exhaust manifold.

Left the intake in place though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Thursday, September 12, 2013 - 11:57 pm:

Doug, I just did the job for a friend and did not have to remove the exhaust manifold. Other times it does have to come off.

This may help. Undo all four bolts around the ball cap. Use whatever tie down you have to pull the rear axle assembly to the rear. I hook one end around the radius rod end and the other around a running board support and then pull the tie down up. This will pull the diff back and give you around 1/4" of space at the rear of the hogshead. Not only will it allow you to get the hogshead further aft, it will make re-fitting it that much easier because you have more room to
move.

Hope thi helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 12:05 am:

Same here. Didn't have to take it off on the 1923 but on the 1915 the manifold had to come off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 12:23 am:

I've found that I could take the hogshead off of any T without taking the exhaust manifold off. However, it can require a LOT more wrestling, and even more to get it back on! I've realized that it's just easier to bite the bullet and do it. Just make sure you have a spare set of manifold gaskets on hand! This is also a great time to check for a warped exhaust manifold.

If it's REALLY being stubborn, you can cheat and loosen the fourth main, put some chalks in front of the rear wheels, and rock the car forward just a tad. This will give you a little extra clearance if you need it, but It seems that it's rarely necessary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 03:09 am:

Maybe it's on the cars with a somewhat warped exhaust manifold the hogshead can't come off without removal?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 07:37 am:

It's so much of a fight with getting the pedal shafts in the bands, the clutch 'fork' down in the right slot, that I just go ahead and take the time to make it as easy as possible. I had new springs for the bands and holy smokes I didn't think I'd ever get those things on, they were so stiff . . . it was fierce battle of wills.

My exhaust manifold was warped and I did not discover it until after I removed it and then couldn't get it back on. I didn't think it was really leaking until I got a new one that fits very nicely and doesn't leak at all.

Also - really big fan of Snyders exhaust rings that are the crush ring and gland in one piece, definitely worth the money. http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/4829


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 09:21 am:

Seth...those crush ring glands--in your opinion do you think they'd at least buy a guy some time if the exh. manifold is warped but not real bad? I think I have a small leak on just the #1 hole on my '25 TT and would really rather not buy a new manifold at this point. Been spending too much money this year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Kriegel on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 09:38 am:

removing a hogshead to me was one of the hardest, most physically challenging jobs I have done on the Model T. Heavy awkward, hard to position my body in the car to get proper leverage. I do NOT want to do this job again! Be careful use a friend to help support the hogs heads weight so you do not injure a muscle


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 09:56 am:

Tim,

Seth can answer the question about the one piece crush type as I've never used them, a little too pricey for me :-)

But concerning your situation and not wanting to change out the manifold just yet...

I always use gland and ring sets..and only use crush rings but once. (They are only like 50/60 cents each)

I've worked on others cars in the area and when I find a warped manifold, I can always get the front to 'work' taking all misalignment at the back that then refuses to align, I can get the gland rings to align on the others. Guy doesn't want to spring for a new manifold?

I cheat! I personally don't like the 3 in 1's...but always have a few sets standing by since they are so cheap.

To solve that conundrum when I get a guy with one warped and he doesn't want to go for a manifold...I use the gland and rings where they work, and 'cut' a 3 in 1 for that back one! Hold it in place with a small dab of grease, clamp pressure takes care of it after that, then go about a normal install with rings and glands on the other. Sure doesn't look quite right, but it works.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 10:11 am:

I have used a come-along tied to a rafter to lift an iron hogshead. I put the hook in the forward edge of the inspection hole.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 10:14 am:

With the wide brake drum tranny, you can remove and insert new wood bands from the brake band end.

I don't recommend that for kevlar. In fact, I don't recommend kevlar at all...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 11:30 am:

Tim - I guess it depends on which way it's warped. If it's a matter of the #1 exhaust being a little out towards the passenger side tire, basically bowing away from the block, then yes, the Snyders seals plus some Ultra Copper will fix you right up.

However, if it's bent up or down, so that #2, #3, and #4 all line up but then #1 is a little high or low, I would definitely not use it for that. That was exactly my problem - my manifold was only a teeny bit warped and I broke the stew out of it attempting to lightly coerce it back into place. If I had known it would end up that way I would have just left it on with a little leak. If you just have a small leak, slather a little Ultra Copper on it and see if that stops it. That stuff is awesome and works on things I wouldn't normally think it could handle. Plus, when you DO go to replace the manifold, it'll all come off easy - unlike JB Weld.

Last but not least - just bite the bullet and get a new exhaust manifold. It's only $85 or so.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Wilson on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 04:29 pm:

Three of the 4 cylinders were leaking on my manifold. A new one made a world of difference


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 06:39 pm:

If you have a starter, check how to remove / handle the Bendix / starter. I understand you want to be very careful and remove those before you shift the hog's head. People with starters can correct / elaborate on this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 07:59 pm:

George & Seth:
thanks for the great tips. Next step of course is to take the dang manifold off and determine as you say Seth if it's bent up or down. Heck of it is, I DO have a new manifold on my work bench, but I originally bought it for the Runabout (my pet)but who knows, may end up springing for a second one. But all indications are it's a small leak, so hopefully a little "first aid" will do for the time being, then I can do it RIGHT next year.
Thanks for the advice!
Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 11:18 pm:

I really hate to say what I have done on a few cars. What I will be doing soon again. It isn't right. It is somewhat hokey. But if a manifold is warped a little, but not too badly, it works fine.
I check the manifold for fit closely. Determine which ports are a bit high, which ports are a bit low. And by about how much. Sometimes number one or four are a bit forward or back also.
Then I use the Dremmel with a small grindstone. I enlarge the port just enough (never more than 1/16th inch) of each location to squeeze onto the glands. I have done this over the "three-port" gasket. I have gotten away with this over crush rings. The "three-port" gasket sometimes needs a minor trim to work, but then works much better over the glands and rarely fails. The crush rings will not hold if you enlarge the port too much at all. Generally, this has worked very well for me. Provided the manifold is not warped too much.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 08:20 am:

No one has mentioned straightening the manifold.
I have never done it myself, but it would seem to be an interesting undertaking. It is described here:

http://mtfctulsa.com/Tech/manifold.htm

Herb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Wilson on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 09:28 am:

Back to the original question. The exhaust manifold intruded maybe 1/4", but it was enough to keep the hogshead from coming off. The engine is an October built '27. The exhaust manifold is brand new from Birdhaven. No matter what I did, the original manifold leaked from 3 ports. New manifold, leaks instantly gone. With the manifold of the hogshead came off easy.
No reverse band, the drive band might have worked, and reverse was missing about a third, and what was there crumbled when picked at.
With the band out, I now see how the demountable ears come off. It is easy when you understand the actual latch is the ear catches over the end of the band. I did find two different types of bands I had not noticed before. Two bands have studs to hold the ears on, and one has slots and wedges. One must have been replaced in the past. I got the brake band relined last night alone, I think a third hand to help hold things would make the job many times easier than doing it alone. I'm using two punches and a vise and it's anvil as the bands instructions state. Hopefully I can find the time in the next couple of nights to get the other bands done, and start putting the car back together. Bands are the only thing left to take care of before this T hits the street.
The Sherriff's title inspector is coming in the morning. Nebraska requires vehicles with out of state titles to be inspected before they can be titled. I have a clean Kansas title, and a notarized bill of sale for the '27 engine currently in the car. When the time comes the '21 engine will get rebuilt and put back into the car. The '27 engine was available and runs now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 09:51 am:

On my 24 Fordor i scrounged up some removable ear bands and changed the low shaft and adjuster to the 26/27 parts so i don't need to remove the hogshead in the car, it is easier for me to remove the engine and do it on the engine stand, there is no room for a large person in their seventies to work inside the car.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arthur Dewey Asher Washington IL on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 11:06 am:

Perhaps this has been covered in the thread but I didn't see it. I always remove the hogs head to replace bands. Two things you can do to get the necessary clearance: (1) Tie the rear end down with strap or chain--the wife's Buick will work. Use a come-a-long and hook to front of T and just "stretch" it a bit. Moving the rear end back just a little bit gives you ample clearance to remove and install the Hogs head. (2)The preferred method. I made 2 yokes out of 2"oak to fit over the rear axle housing. Fitted them with a 3'4" threaded rod, slipped a pipe over the rod with a bracket to fit the running board brace. With forcing nuts on the threaded rod its easy to push the rear end back against the spring and away you go. Not my idea but I have long forgotten whose it was.
Dewey


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 01:34 pm:

I have straightened a number of manifolds but it takes time to get it right and you use an awful lot of acetylene and oxygen doing it. It really does work and watching it work the first time is kind of exciting but, for my money, a new manifold makes more sense when you figure the time and supplies you need to straighten one. It would be a different story if they were not available or the cost was prohibitive but that is not the case. If I was you I would spring for a new one and use the time saved to do something else on the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 09:35 pm:

And people wonder why I have gotten really good at just pulling the engine right out of the car!!!
For me it allows me to do the job right. No oil leaks. No skinned knuckles. No hernia. Check rods and mains. Verify every hating at once


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