16 touring...Up on jacks.
My rear wheels are locking up when I tighten the axle nuts down. Before when they were loose, I was able to drive up and down the driveway 50 ft or so.
Here's what I've done and know:
1. installed new inner neoprene seals ( after removing the old ones)
2. installed new (used) roller bearings.
3. Installed new neoprene outer seals.
4 Installed new brake linings
5 Installed new RM brakes.
6. the wheels turn freely with a little scraping noise until I tighten the axle nut down and then it will not move at all.
7. I've ground down the areas I thought may be scraping. Mostly the top of the new RM bolt head that hold the bolt end of the old brake linings.
Is there supposed to be something that separates the hub from the new neoprene outer seal?
What keeps the hub from binding on this as it is tightened against it?
Is there a common area of binding I should know about?
What do you need photos of?
Thanks everyone for your patience...
8. they still bind even when I take off the brakes and loosen the RM brakes all the way, and even with the axle key out.
Here's a guess. If the axle tapers are worn, tightening the axle nuts will force the wheels on too far. In that case the brake drum will be forced against the brakes and then the backing plate.
One easy way to see if this is the problem is ti inspect the drums, and brake shoe edges for scratches. Even better, temporarily remove the brake shoes and see if you still have the problem.
Yes, I removed the brake shoes for a try and still get the binding.
Opps, didn't notice you said you removed the brakes. Any galling or scratching where the face of the hub meets the face of the axle housing ?
Maybe try a set of axle shims? Some guys make them out of beer cans.
I'm about to take some photos...hang on. I'll post them.
I'll spry some fresh paint and give them a spin..
Where would the axle shims go?
Use some Prussian Blue so you can see the point of contact. Then of you can't fix the contact point you can add some shims on the tapered shaft to compensate for wear.
You can get the Prussian Blue at auto parts stores and get the shims from T venders.
Ok...here are a couple shots. In the hub: there is an inside scrape marked B. I think I have this taken care of with the grinder. On the outer edge, there is still some scraping. I'm wondering if this is the hub hitting the back-plate. Is this possible?
On the second shot, you can see where there is still a tiny bit of paint being caught by the bolt head that hold the brake shoes and the clips from the RM brakes.
What I don't understand is why it shouldn't bind to begin with - even if everything is perfect. What keeps the hub from being too tightened against the outer seal and causing it to be the bind problem.
Just spoke with Dan...Will go ahead and order the shims.
As he says..."if it's not one thing, it's 15 others"
A and B are from the parking brake shoes rubbing on the brake drum. C, unless it stick up past the outer edge of the shoes should not be hitting anything. If it was you would see a corresponding mark on the cam side of the shoe. Because you are using two brake drums on each wheel, the original parking brake drums are each moved the thickness of rocky mtn drum inwards. Installing a axle shim should move the whole assembly out and away from rubbing on the shoes. Or you can grind the outer edge of the parking brake shoes.
I think the applicable hint here is the condition of those bolts and nuts in the left picture. Why are they worn like that? Because the wheel was too close to the brake shoes, springs, etc. Why would the wheel (and drum) be too close? A very likely reason is the tapered hole in the hub being so worn that the hub is pulled too far onto the axle shaft by the nut. If that's the problem, Bud is correct. A shim will work as a temporary fix until you find better hubs. But DO NOT make them out of beer cans. Aluminum might last a whole mile if you're lucky. I've used pieces of steel paint cans, and that has been OK until I find better hubs. Here's Dan Treace's picture of how to make the shims, along with some discussion of the pros and cons.
Steve...the bolts and nuts in the left photo are from me grinding them down when I added the longer bolts to accommodate the RM brake drums. The bare spot is a light reflection, not bare metal.
From Land's tech tip:
"Rear axle shim for worn hubs or axles. Lang’s Tech Tip: This tapered shim tightens up a loose wheel if hub or axle is worn. Also shims the hub out so the brake drum does not hit the side of the brake shoes or backing plate. May require 1 or more per axle depending on amount of wear. (These are a must for use the Rocky Mounting brakes for 1909-1925 as a result of the second drum being used) .005" thick"
I wonder why this was not mentioned in the RM brake instructions?
Tomorrow morning call Smith & Jones in Columbia, SC (803-822-4141)and order you a half dozen shims (#T-2505 SH) at $1.80/pr. They charge only actually shipping cost and you'll get them the next day!.
Yeah, same thing happened to me. The simple answer is to install axle shims. Here's an easy way to do it (and the rest of you guys, forgive me for re-posting):
Getting a couple of shims AND the woodruff key properly seated when you mount the wheel can be very difficult. The shims themselves are very thin and will fold and crumple very easily, almost like aluminum foil. Also, the weight of the wheel with a tire mounted makes it very hard to control, so if the tire isn't mounted yet, save that for later.
I found that this stuff: artist's spray-mount, makes a difficult job much easier. In fact, I don't know how I would have done the job without it.
Besides getting the spray can, you also want to order several more shims than you actually plan to use, because if you're like me, you may accidentally crumple up a few. They're not expensive, so get plenty.
Clean the oil and grease off the axle, keyway and the inside of the wheel hub. Get it really, really clean. Place the woodruff key in the axle. Hopefully, it fits tightly enough that you need to tap it into place with a wooden drift.
Lightly (lightly!) spray the outside of one shim with spray-mount, let it dry and stick it inside the wheel hub—and of course, don't let the shim cover any part of the keyway. The tackiness of the spray mount will help keep it where it belongs.
Carefully fit the wheel to the axle so that the key and keyway lines up. As you do this, check that the shim hasn't shifted in the wheel. If it hasn't, put the castle-nut on and tighten the living daylights out of it so the shim is squeezed hard and becomes firmly glued to the inside of the wheel. Give it time for the spray mount to thoroughly adhere and dry.
If you needed a shim in the first place, one probably won't be enough. After having allowed enough time for the spray mount to set, lightly (lightly!) spray the outside of another shim and set it aside to dry. Pull the wheel off. Stick the tacky shim inside the shim that is already glued into the inside of the wheel and make sure it doesn't cover any part of the keyway. The idea is to glue one shim to the other.
Again, carefully fit the wheel to the axle so that the key and keyway lines up. As you do this, check that the shim hasn't shifted in the wheel. If it hasn't, put the castle-nut back on, tighten it down hard and allow sufficient time for the spray mount to thoroughly adhere and dry.
Once you've done that, the shims will have become attached semi-permanently. You can now pull the wheel and the shims will stay exactly where they're supposed to when you remount the wheel to the axle.
By the way, two shims is supposed to be the allowable maximum, but I wouldn't hesitate to "glue in" a third one if needed.
Michael -- Don't use more than one shim per side; they will self-destruct in short order. Since your hubs are going in far enough to bind, you'll need some fairly thick ones, and the ones the vendors sell are paper-thin. Instead, make thicker ones from lacquer thinner cans or soup cans. The hub is in the correct place when the inner edge of the hub is even with the outer edge of the backing plate, with no overlap. If the drum overlaps the backing plate, you need a thicker shim. If a soup can thickness won't do it, you probably need new axles and/or better hubs.
When you get them installed, torque the axle nut to 100 ft-lbs and put in the cotter pin. After driving 50 miles or so, remove the pin and re-torque. You can usually get to the next cotter pin slot by then. Check again after 100 more miles, just to be sure they're still tight.
Thanks so much guys...you're all such a HUGE help!