I have no connection, just thought someone here might be interested.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-Model-T-none/300966067743?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_t rkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D17574%26meid%3D142045 1909131283546%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D8143%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D380466405974 %26
"Location: United States"
How very helpful.
Maybe the listing has been updated since you saw it, the listing now says Chicago, Illinois, USA.
I dose need complete restore but it looks like it could be easily done. Depending on his price would make the difference if it would be cost effective to bring her back into shape.Some guys that sell cars forget what the investment is to bring a car back to a driver. Just from the photos my guess would be another $5000.00. And thats only if the engine runs good. What we cant see is the babbitted parts, Axles, Radiator, Generator, Tires, Coils and box. All the little things that will be required tend to add up in cost rather fast.
That body is pretty bad in my opinion. Yes I know, lots of people will say "I've restored worse". I also know several people who have spent the better part of their lives restoring one car (or never finished it before they croaked and then it was used for parts).
Start with something better, or don't expect to finish that one fast IMO.
5000.00 to do a "complete restore" of this car is really wishful thinking. One would have to b really talented and get materials very very cheap to do a complete restore of this car for 5 grand.
If you are doing a “complete restore” , you usually do the engine over, paint, rear end, upholstery,replacement parts, upgrade parts, etc,
When you find the guy who will do all that for 5000.00 send me his email and phone number.
I think it's gonna take closer to 9 or 10 grand to completely restore that car, maybe more.
Bad wood equals new wood. At least 1700 bucks. A new radiator is another 1000. New upholstery and top is at least another 1000. New tires and tubes is another 1000. Add taxes and shipping cost, and there's the first 5000 bucks.
So 5 grand ain't gonna cut it. And you haven't even touched the engine or drive line yet.....
AW come on now there ain't nothing to re-wooding a car...I've done it
All you need are some trees and a saw.
One could easily put $5K into the bodywork alone and probably get it to primer. It might be a good buy at $2K, but then that would depend on how original the rest of the car is to begin with.
I see new wheels & tires, new body wood, new interior & top, major metalwork, complete chassis restoration... and that's just the cosmetic stuff!
It would be a fun project for the right person... with lots of parts in the back yard. (say Steve Jelf).
This is not a good starter car for a newby in my opinion.
Not a 19 engine as it is a non starter or generator. KB
That is the correct engine for a 1919 open Model T. Starter engines were only used in the closed Ts for 1919. I have a mid year 1919 engine that is the same.
Thanks Darel, just shows how much I know! KB
The engine serial number 1905948 provided in the listing corresponds to May 1917.
What is the difference between a 19 touring body and a 17 touring body? The reason I ask is, the engine serial number makes this car a 17 and the tittle number makes it a 19. I enlarged one of the pictures and there is another number by the right kick panel.
I had to downsize this picture to post it here, but if you enlarge the picture on the listing, it is quite clear.
The body is not 1917.
The cowl has two extra bolts above the coil box and the side panels are attached to the cowl and firewall via angle iron brackets, not wood block brackets.
Windshield is typical of a 1919-22 starter/generator car - no sidelights.
The metal firewall is much later.
What I can see of the running gear is not 1917 (such as the rear spring, the front wishbone and front perches).
The top bows appear to be oval, which would be correct for 1917.
There is a good chance that the number on the right front floor board riser would give the year of the body. From the looks of it, I believe it is a Beaudett "B" (also spelled Beaudette) at the beginning of the number. The year would most likely be at the other end of the number and I believe it is hidden by the lose kick panel upholstery. Below is an easy to read Beaudett number from Dave’s car. It has the “B” then a number and at the end it has 20 for 1920. Many of them have been repainted many times or are rusted and are much harder to read. Note how the last two digits -- the year appear to have been pre-stamped and the other numbers and the leading "B" stamped in at a different time.
As Erik pointed out it has a mixture of parts (most Ts are to one degree or another) with the earlier oval top bows but the steel firewall/dash that was not available until around Feb 1923 ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/C-D.htm#dash And if you look closely at the photos you will see that the firewall brackets do NOT line up well with the metal dash. I suspect the dash is a replacement. I suspect the body is earlier as it has the 5 piece rear tub that was standard 1915-1920 and was replaced with over lap by the three piece rear tub during 1921 and by 1922 was out of production (by my estimate/guess). The wide end caps on the upholstery would mean very late 1916 to 1920ish also. But is that a 1915-1917 one piece coil box lid? Note also it has the earlier two “U-bolts” holding the front spring that was phased out during 1921 when it was replaced with the newer yoke style (ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/E.htm#eng6 ).
As others have commented, most of us would recommend start with a driver. That one needs a lot of work. And as the current owner noted it is a candidate for a replacement wooden body (speedster, open express, depot hack etc.).
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Darel. Not true about the starters. The 1919 open cars did have starters before May 19th according to the list of changes. It was still an option and obviously, this car did not have it.
That body looks repairable to me. i could fix it for maybe $5,000 but would have to spend years doing it and searching for materials.
I really appreciate Bruce McCalley’s comment from http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1917-20H.htm where he reminds us:
“It is important to remember that the Model T did not truly come in annual models. Changes were made as they were developed. When we speak of, say, a 1917 Ford, this is not to say that all Fords of 1917 were alike. The “typical” car of the period would fit our descriptions, but there could be variations. In many cases we have no accurate data on just when changes were made. An example would be the 1917 cars, which first appeared in August of 1916. The brass-radiator cars built before the change would be called “1916” while the black-radiator cars would be “1917,” even though both were made in 1916.”
In the case of the starter being sold originally as an accessory on a 1919 open car there is some good information in Bruce’s Encyclopedia. Initially none of the 1919 open cars were available with a starter but as more and more of the starter engines were produced they became available during the year as an option on the closed car. Exactly when – we don’t find that documentation. And during that time if a starter engine was dropped in one frame that would become a touring car a non-starter engine could be dropped in another frame just as easily. Note also that there was a time when even the non-starter engines used the starter style transmission housing with block-off plates.
From Bruce McCalley’s on line encyclopedia at http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc19.htm or in his book “The Model T Ford” on page 559-560 or his Comprehensive Encyclopedia CD available from: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/333725.html?1357665853 you will find several notes from the Benson Ford Archives related to the starter and its use on the cars. Below are the ones that I believe you would be interested in reading:
FEB 21, 1919 Acc. 575, Box 11, #724, Ford Archives
T-701C starter-type flywheel used on all cars.
[Hap’s note: NOT all cars were equipped with a starter but they should have all had the starter flywheel according to that note. But did that really happen? Probably not – i.e. different Ford Branches, old parts used up etc. At http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/48916.html?1203881938 Keith Townsend on Monday ay, February 25, 2008 - 12:59 am posted:
“My April 1919 touring was one of the last blocks that was made that did not have provision for a generator. It has a non-starter flywheel.” Yes, the flywheel may have been changed at some point early in the cars history – but if then at least one Ford engine was still produced in Apr that did not follow that Feb 21, 1919 information. And of course the implementation of any change at Ford usually took days and sometimes months. ]
The same principle would be true for the other notes below – they don’t mean all the cars had the starter, but rather that the parts were now installed to support the starter.]
MAR 15, 1919 Acc. 575, Box 11, #726, Ford Archives
Starter-type transmission cover used on all cars.
APR 18, 1919 Acc. 575, Box 11, #729, Ford Archives
T-400D (starter type) cylinder [block] specified for all cars.
MAY 7, 1919 Acc. 78, #413, Ford Archives
Demountable rims supplied on some open cars.
MAY 19, 1919 Acc. 78, #420, Ford Archives
Starters on some open cars (appeared prior to this date). New windshield brackets on electric cars; the old type with the integral lamp brackets to be continued on the non-electric cars. (Oil lamps were not supplied on the starter-equipped open or closed cars.)
MAY 28, 1919 Engine production records, Ford Archives
Last non-starter engine block made on this date.
JUN 5, 1919 Acc. 78, #436, Ford Archives
All cars to have starter-type engines; trucks to get whatever non-starter engines are left.
Valve cover plates now to be held in place with a screw instead of a stud and nut.
My guess there was at least one car assembled with a non-starter engine block after Jun 5, 1919 [I.e. did not have the provision to add a generator at the front]. But how many and how long after Jun 5, 1919 – it is not documented.
I hope that when the car on e-bay is purchased, the owner visits and joins our forum and our club. That will give them some good support. I would also love to have a better photo of the front of the car. In my case, my eyes and/or my experience does not allow me to clearly see if the car does or does not have the oil side lamp mounting brackets. But the side photo leads me to believe they maybe are there.
Note also it appears to still have the original metal strip across the back of the top and probably some of the original upholstery.
Hopefully we can obtain some photos from the new owner.
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Yes Hap, the first picture clearly shows the oil lamp brackets. Very interesting facts about the starter/non-starter engines, also facts about the 17/ 19 bodies. Thank you.
Unless you REALLY enjoy the restoration process, can do ALL the work yourself, and WANT to spend at least 3 times what the car will be worth when it is done, buy the best restored car you can afford. Then spend your free time and money keeping it running. There is no such thing as a way to do this on the cheap.
Just my 2 cents.
Why oh why do so many so called supporters of the Model T hobby want to scare people away. I have no connection with this sale but it is NOT impossible to save or restore this car and keep another Model T on the road.
I have two Model T's, a '22 Coupe and a '27 Touring. I am no way an expert on Model T's and never claimed to be but I have re-wooded the '22 Coupe, made body parts, and rebuilt engines, transmissions etc. I have shared photos of my re-wooding so some of you could complete your projects. If you don't want to bid on the car then don't but to tell someone that they shouldn't buy it is wrong. First of all you don't know who is bidding and what their skill level is and second if your restoring Model T's for their value or "worth" good luck. Any car a Model T or other is never worth the labor of love that someone puts into it.
I wish good luck to anyone who buys this car and happy "T-ing"
57 mins left...current bid 2,225
I'm betting on 4k.
Why buy that one for $3,000 when you could buy this one for $8,000?
ended at $2,640....hope it's someone on here!
I was just glad it was 2000 miles from me. I simply cannot afford to buy any projects right now. But this would have tempted me a lot!
My soon to be seriously begun project is pictured below. Whether patched and preserved or fully restored, that touring has a lot of potential. I would love to have gotten it.
For me, antique automobiles are a passion. They help connect me to history.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
I'm not trying to scare anyone but I also don't want to see people get burned. Anyone with Model T experience can look at that car and decide if they want to tackle the project. So we don't worry about them. The people that are going to bid on it because IT'S CHEAP and have no idea what they're getting in to are the ones I want to educate.
Many years ago I bought my first Model T. I have never driven it. I picked it because IT WAS CHEAP and I could easily buy it. Model T Haven built it up from worn out, rusty crap. There was no wood in the body, the wiring was basically gone, the coils were dead, the engine totally worn out, wheels dried up and shot, etc, etc, etc. Someone that knew better or had experience or whatever could have decided if they wanted it. Nobody held a gun to my head but nobody also warned me I'd never be able to drive it as soon as I wanted to. I bought it because I didn't want to spend twice as much.
A couple years later, I DID spend twice as much on a touring car and enjoyed the heck out of it while I did small improvements. It was a much better investment and I was actually able to have a Model T and use it.
Several years and several Model T's later, I'm making progress on the first one because I finally have the experience. But I'll have way too much money in it and way too much time. I still wish I'd never bought it.
There are projects, and then there's rusty crap that is appealing because it's cheap. The bidders can decide what they are looking at each time but I feel my experience may be helpful to some.
it has taken me a life time to learn... cheeper, is not all ways better. and i still goof once in a while
I'm learning this lesson the hard way. If I had just spent a little more money and time looking around for a good previously restored car, I would have saved myself several thousand dollars and lots of bruises. But I was impatient and arrogantly thought I could get the job done for $4-$5K more than what I purchased it for. Right now I would estimate the figure necessarily to complete the job at two to three times that number. So while I may have a pretty nice well restored T once it is done, I could have achieved the same thing and saved a chunk of change along the way had I been a little smarter.
Found a big roll of imitation leather from a shoe factory in a dumpster today. Might make good seat covers. Where there is a will there is a way.