We're visiting a friend in the UK who is connected to the remains of a Model T. He is a vintage car guy with no particular knowledge of Model Ts — my reference material is at home but took some photos this afternoon and would appreciate help with exact dating and any other comments.
Engine # appears to be 5,833,046 and is in a LHD chassis. The windshield looks more elaborate than I recall on North American cars but seems to fit the cowling shape and mounting holes. The gas tank appears to be a subsequent modification and is, in fact, bolted crooked to the chassis. Engine has a generator blanking plate and a drive sprocket instead of a timer.
The number dates it to Tuesday, April 4, 1922. BUT, see the note from the encyclopedia:
4 ....5816753..... 56819000..... 2,248
......(5189001..... 5834000) .....15,000 to Manchester
.......5834001...... 5835928...... 1,928
Obviously, Manchester wouldn't use all those 15,000 numbers right away, so your engine would be sometime after April 4.
Thank you Steve
And would you or someone else be able to confirm whether the numbers, only, were allocated to Manchester for use on locally-cast blocks, or would numbered block castings be shipped from the US to England?
Bottom line up front: "IF" English manufactured and all the parts from the same car then Apr 1922 to Jan 1923.
Page 230 of "The English Model T Frod" book has "year to end December" Cork Ford Cork became sole supplier of engine units and cast parts ot Trafford Park having built up from late 1920.
Note it has both left and right front doors. Ford of Canada produced cars with left and right front doors all years from 1912 to 1927. Trafford Park, England only did that starting around Oct 1918 but at that time they were producing RHD cars [ref page 133 - English Ford book]. Demountable rims were introduced late in 1919 for the 1920 model year. [pg 134 -- and one dealer reported their first demountable rim car arrived on 11 Jan 1920]. Left hand drive was announced for Oct 1919 and on [pg 135]. While Ford of Canada used the belt driven generator -- Ford of England's new USA management thought they were right and they would educate the English. That didn't work very well and the RHD was reintroduced by Ford of England in Jan 1923 [pg 140].
Base on that "IF" the parts are all from the same car and "IF" it is a UK manufactured car, then it would be after Oct 1919 with the LHD and before Jan 1923 when RHD was reintroduced. We know the engine number was sent to Cork Apr 4, 1922 which makes it Apr 1922 to Jan 1923. Note the round gas tank was also changed to oval for the 1923 cars [pg 140].
The front looks like a low cowl 1918 to 1923 UK car [also Canadian would be similar].
I would recommend zooming in on a high resolution copy of the dash and try to see what the ID Tag says. If it is readable -- that could give some additional clues.
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Thanks Hap for all that — much appreciated!
I like the chain drive for an external magneto! ws
Looking at the pictures, the windshield seams to be pre-23. the body also has two doors in the front so maybe made for Canadian or English use. the tires seams to be 21" balloon type demountable. The gas tank just may have the drivers side mounting bracket on backwards. The top saddles are earlier than 23. Better Eyes may correct me.
later 1921 to 23 non starter car.
Did the Canadian or English T's have 2 front doors?
The remains of the front cowl has hinges on both sides. Interesting.
While the Canadian cars had two functional front doors from 1912 to 1927 the English cars did not initially have two functional front doors starting in 1912 but like the USA production they had a false or dummy driver’s door. In their case it was on the right hand side because the driver was on the right hand side. They introduced the second functional front door during 1918. Please see the 4:40 pm entry above for additional details about that.
You already know that if the car was produced in Canada you would find the Robertson - square drive screws in the hinges and places like that. It would also probably have "Made in Canada" on the head, and several other locations. But did you think to look for those types of signs?
It also appears that the Cork engines had casting dates past the time the USA discontinued them, so it probably would have a casting date if produced in Cork or in Canada.
If one of the other European countries assembled the car using the UK parts, then they were always LHD and that would mean the upper limit might be higher. As Bob pointed out the windshield frame is the earlier style rather than the slant windshield 1923 style. I’m not sure when the slant windshield was introduced in the rest of Europe, but in England it appears it was available on/around Jan 12, 1923 the same time the RHD was introduced again [ref page 230 “The English Model T Ford” book].
If you have a chance please let us know if the car is English or produced in a different country.
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Thank you again, Hap and others.
Hap, I neglected to check what screws were in the hinges (or anywhere else) but did look for a "Made in ______" inscription on the head and found nothing. Too late now to check for anything else, but my friend has the link to this discussion and may follow up later.
Have a great visit and trip! I believe the photo of the dash if it was higher resolution might answer many of the questions – or perhaps add even more questions. It looks like the writing is still visible.
It appears to have Ford Motor Company at the top of the ID patent plate. But from the very limited information I have Ford of England put that at the bottom of their tags [ref page 161 of “The English Model T Ford” book] and so did Canada [ a couple of photos I have and none of them are past 1919]. Hopefully some of the English, Canadian, Swedish, Danish, etc. owners can let us know if they have or know of one with the Ford Motor Company script at the top. And of course what the tag in the photo says may add to our information.
Side note -- the English Fords continued to stamp the engine number on the ID patent plates that were used on the wooden dash/firewalls until the metal firewalls came out in 1923 (Ref page 161 "The English Ford Book.") In the photo above, I do not see a "stamped in" number but it may be visible on the actual tag or a higher resolution photo. Also even if the original lettering cannot be read – I would think any stamped in numbers should still be visible when looking at the actual tag.
Good luck to your friend and have safe trip.
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According to McCalley's book engine blocks were altered to use the one piece valve chamber door at about #5,530,000 (november 1921 which would make this a 1922. Also consider the pressed steel running board brackets verses the forged ones