I've seen the ads in late November and December 1907, but none ever named it "Model T". I thought Ford had not decided on a letter or other way to name the model. All the advertising in late 1907 and early 1908 did not mention "Model T", just "Light Touring" and "Landaulet" or "Taxicab."
AND MODEL W!
Again, far and away the earliest ad I've seen. And in a 3/4 page New York newspaper ad. It claims February 1908 deliveries. And shows the Pre T NRSK shift lever and the K style battery box (no magneto). Who says there's nothing new left to discover? (OK, maybe not that big of a deal)
Sometimes insomnia isn't all bad
Right hand drive as well!!
I guess I had this late Oct account showing specs for the new car, but no model name.
Good stuff! Just when was the decision made to put the steering wheel on the left for most of production. It appears that a year before the T came out, it was being designed as a right hand drive car.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
We've seen that October 26 1907 Automobile issue countless times before. It states the ignition type as "Storage Battery" which would seem not to be the Model T. Also, it's unlikely Ford had anything more than perhaps a T engine prototype at that early date. Likely the horsepower column was simply in error.
Most likely the cars in the "Ford's Latest" - again an image that has been previously posted here on the forum many times - were Model NRS. Ford did build a few NRS Landaulet and touring models. The artists conceptions above appear to show those, in spite of the Model T being referred to in the text. Perhaps that was accurate at the time, and Ford had not yet made the decision to go LHD?
"We've seen that October 26 1907 Automobile issue countless times before. It states the ignition type as "Storage Battery" which would seem not to be the Model T. Also, it's unlikely Ford had anything more than perhaps a T engine prototype at that early date. Likely the horsepower column was simply in error. "
Yes, I posted the "spec page" probably two years ago.
Both these ads show a "prototype". The "point is" while we've seen the prototypes in several ads and even at auto shows, they were never referred to as "Model T" before at least the spring of 1908.
That's the other "point", this prototype Model T did not have a magneto!
I'm amused by the ads that say "TO THE PUBLIC: all we say is WAIT"
If you were a Ford dealer at that time, it would be tough to sell any cars with ads like that out there.
WOW....both that you need some sleep Rob ;), and about those neat ads and cars. That "W" is neat. I wonder if that address or whatever mentioning "Columbus" would in fact be Columbus Ohio, as that town is only 2 hrs. south of me. I suspect it was.
I'm glad you find this stuff Rob. Very interesting and informative. Thanks
Tim and Warren, thank you.
Derek, I agree. Ford certainly didn't make it any easier to sell the remaining Model Ks by telling prospective Ford touring car buyers to "Wait". Also, in the "Grand Central Palace" reference, the prices are listed. If I saw that, and was planning on buying a Model S roadster (listing at about $750), I'd consider waiting for the "20 hp roadster" listed for $600, or the $800 touring.
Also, reference Royce's post, "Most likely the cars in the "Ford's Latest" - again an image that has been previously posted here on the forum many times - were Model NRS. Ford did build a few NRS Landaulet and touring models".
Actually, the Ford FY audits show two "T"s and one "Landaulet" sold in FY 1908. The "Landaulet" (not Model NRS, those are listed separtately)
Below are the is the October 1907 monthly Gain/Loss report. It already shows two cars, a "Rumble Seat" and "Landaulet". these are not Model S, because Model S cars are reported as "Model S, Model S Road (the S with a "Rumble Seat") and Model S Coupe in the reports.
I know this is tough to read, but it appears a few of these cars "slipped" out to dealers according to the audits.
Lastly, the year end fiscal report shows the same single "Laund" along with two Model Ts (October 1908).
It would be interesting if you could find when the Model Ts and the Landaulet (Model W?) were sold.
The Model W seems consistent with what FoMoCo did earlier: The Models R and S are just body variations on the Model N. And, wasn't there a Model E that was a delivery body version of the Model C.
(By the way, you might want to contact http://www.ritzsite.nl/FORD_1/03_eford.htm and correct their wrong statements on the Model K.)
The other thing I think is interesting from the ad, now granted they're artist renditions, but the cowl on the Model T is like the very rare Model S Touring. Plus all the other carry over features you mention from the S, and K. But the firewall/dash on the Model W is like the T's. Hummmmmm????
The final T was going to be all the things learned from the earlier models plus innovation (Magneto, enclosed transmission/mono crankcase and single block etc....)
I wonder how much of this ad campaign was for "real" or was it just to stimulate public interest as they were still hashing out the details that would become the Model T we all know.
The "Laundaulet (their spelling) shown above is separate from the Model T and Model S entries. This car (laund) first shows up as "sold" on the October 1907 Loss/Gain report (first microfilm clip shown above). I suspect it is the same car as seen in the advertisement called "Model W", and wasn't initially classified as a Model T. While it's hard to see, the other car sold on the October 1907 Gain/Loss statement says "Rumble Seat". Again, this isn't the Model S rumble seat car (S Roadster) because they (S roadster) are shown on the second line down from the top (really hard to see on this copy, I had to use a magnifying glass) as "SR".
The lines shown are:
1. Model S
2. " SR
3. Model R
4. " N
5. ' K
6. Rumble Seat (I believe the first "T" prototype listed as sold)
5. Laundaulet (again, what I think the advertisement is referring to as "Model W").
Then, when you look at the 1907 Fiscal Year End list of cars sold, you see the same "1 Laundaulet, now two "T"s (I think this is where our "Rumble Seat" car is now listed).
Others shown include all three types of Model S sold, "Model S", "Model S Road." and "Model S Coupe"
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.......
Good questions. We do know a few of these cars were shown at different winter shows, 1907/1908. There were even two shipped to, and shown at the winter London Auto Show (maybe that these two show up on the October 1907 report?).
I believe, just as with several other Models, and the N is a great example, Ford was notorious for "outkicking their coverage", and prematurely announcing models, then delaying actual production as they worked out the kinks.
For example: Models N and K were shown at the winter auto shows and orders were booked. However, the first Model Ks don't appear to have been delivered until mid April, and the Model N wasn't delivered until mid July. The result was Ford went many months with almost no sales on the books. in April 1906 (traditionally a big month for auto sales then) Ford Motor Company only listed the sale of 17 cars, all Model K.
I bet it was a feast and famine experience for dealers.
It appears as if Ford was anxious to announce that a new model was imminent, even if they themselves did not know exactly how it would look or what the powertrain would consist of. They did however seem to know on thing for sure, it would be called the Model T.
(As the Model W.... still in development, maybe in 2014)
I've seen news reports like this one indicating Henry Ford and Ford Motor Company intended to build a lightweight touring car very early in Ford Company's history. This article appeared in "The Automobile" August 16, 1906. Evidently the industry and anyone who was interested knew Ford's intention. To put this in perspective, the Model N has only been in delivery for one month:
The article goes on to say "if such a move is carried out, the largest auto plant in the world would be the outcome.
And, related to this thread, this account appeared in "The Automobile" December 5th, 1907. The article states "The new four passenger light touring car and taxicab or town car were constantly surrounded by visitors." Evidently Ford was confident enough that they would release this car (T) soon enough to warrant showing two examples in England in early December 1907.
I still wonder where your NRS style engine with removable head fits into this evolution?
The 2014 Model T will be a low priced Tesla electric. They're already making huge profits with the Model S at $70K+ each.
The cars being shown in 1907 at the London show were the 1908 Model S touring and an S Landaulet. They are well documented in the book "The English Model T Ford".
Let's see where they are called "Model S", and dates of these ads?
The U.S. cars sold, and shown, are listed as either 20 or 24 hp. They (U.S.) are also listed as 97 inch wheelbase.
They are also listed initially (as shown above) on the October 1907 audit report at "Rumble Seat" and "Laundaulet", while all other Models S (Coupe, Roadster and S) are designated as; S Roadster, S Coupe, and S.
LOL Rob. Compare the pictures of the Model S cars above to the drawings you posted. Seriously, you are wrong here, and you might as well just admit it and move on.
THAT TYPE OF COMMENT IS COMPLETELY UNCALLED FOR AND SHOWS THE ENTIRE FORUM HOW IMMATURE YOU REALLY ARE!!!
This isn't about who is right, and who is wrong (at least for adults). This is about learning new things, or finding out more about the cars that are our passion (at least for most of us).
However, let's try this:
Yes Royce, your right (although I'm no longer sure what it is you must right about). I'm wrong (not sure about what, I've just posted ad and article copy, but I must be wrong). There, is that better?
Now, back to this thread.
I would like to know when the ads you partially displayed ran. If you don't know, just say so. If you do, please share that with us.
In England Ford distributors sold a touring bodies Model NRS chassis for some time (1907 and 1908). If necessary, I will produce the specs and advertising for those cars.
This mid 1908 English article mentions the future Model T, calling the touring car Model "DD" and the runabout "CC".
As for this thread, again, this is far and away the first time I've seen the eventual Model T referred to as "Model T". It's on a 3/4 page (page 3) of a major U.S. newspaper, so I'm sure it cost Ford Motor Company a significant amount to place the ad.
This is part of an article appearing in "Automobile" magazine, Nov 27 1907. The specs mirror those of the "Grand Central Palace" (auto show) I ran earlier on this thread. Apparently this was the car Ford was planning, or at least publicizing they would sell in early 1908. Still no "Model T" designation. This car still is listed with a 97 inch wheelbase and no magneto.
Sound's like a Model T to me! Water Pump and all!! Bud.
That's right, Henry Ford "liked" the waterpump before he didn't. Even on the T.....
Thank you for all of your work! I plan to go to Hershey and We can talk about the work we have booth done on the early years at Ford. Bruce
Great, see you there. It looks as though I'll be at Carl Pate's spaces. Carl was kind enough to let me "stay with him." I'll have the Model K there, and I believe Carl will have his Model F and 03 A (or 09 T?). The spaces are near the HCCA tent, just southwest of it (I don't know the space numbers yet").
We'll also have the Early Ford Registry "meet and greet", I think on Thursday afternoon for any of you early Ford enthusiasts. I can't wait,
Interesting that the DD car mentioned in the English article had a high tension magneto, not the low tension magneto actually furnished with the Model T. Is this just one of many signs that the Model T changed a lot between the beginning of development in 1907 (?) and its ultimate release in October of 1908?
Also, why did Ford drop the water pump on the Model T after about 1500 cars? They must have believed the car would cool fine without it, even though all FOrds before then had pumps. Has anyone found documentation or discussion of this change?
Whoops. Should be 2500 cars, not 1500.
Good "catch" on the high tension mag. It also says 84 inch wheelbase (that would be the same as Models NRS). Unfortunately I didn't document when and where this was published.
Goes to show that while the general concept of the Model T was in Henry's mind, the actual "nuts & bolts" details had not yet been set in stone. Many of these 1907 era comments were made possibly before the strengths & weaknesses in the NRS designs were well known. Therefore, many early T related statements, citing NRS style design features, may have been a bit premature and somewhat uninformed. Also, we must factor in the inaccuracies of the press in that era. As bad as reporting can be today, those days seemed to be even worse.
From what I have heard, the early T gear driven water pumps were very troublesome and prone to failure. Perhaps those who have used them in modern times can comment with more authority.
I took the pictures this morning from my copy of the book "The English Model T Ford". In the footnotes of the book every image source is documented. There is an extensive section on the cars being shown at the 1907 London show. You have a copy of this book right? If not you need one. I don't have the book with me today, but I will let you know the footnote this evening when I get home.
In any case all the witnesses at the show refer to the cars as Model S - they were there. The witnesses, images and time line don't support any notion that these are Model T prototypes at the London show.
Ok, please print the portion where "all the witnesses refer to the cars as Model S."
Tonight, when your home and able to.
Footnote 35 and 37 The pictures are from the Perry Thornton and Schreiber catalogue, printing dated 28 May 1907 (Tuckett Collection).
The images are distinctly Model S, British version, because they show the running box mounted tool box referred to in the catalogue.
Yes, a touring version of N and S was offered in England at that time.
What does that have to do with T prototypes in late 1907?
There were no T prototypes in 1907, so I guess the answer would be nothing. You were trying to place a T prototype at the 1907 London Motor Show. That didn't happen.
The first Model T to be shown in Britain was at the 1908 Motor Show in London. A period review appeared in the publication "Autocar". Courtesy of Jem Bowkett:
There are several surviving 1908 NRS British versions of the Model S touring. Let's compare them with the dubious "Model Ts" in the ad you posted at the beginning of this thread.
Link to older thread which has a lot of the same facts:
You said: "There were no T prototypes in 1907, so I guess the answer would be nothing."
There are numerous articles, news accounts, auto show descriptions, along with Ford Motor Company drawings of the "prototype" Model T. The October 1907 Loss/Gain statement shows two cars, a "Rumble Seat" and "Landaulet" sold.
And now we have an advertisement (yes, that I posted, but Ford Motor Company drew up the ad and paid to run it) as early as November 1907 calling the new model "T".
Maybe they're all wrong and your right, I don't know (but I have my own opinion). I'm just posting information that people who were there reported 106 years ago.
Meanwhile, you should be able to take comfort knowing that "your right."
From the beginning, Henry Ford was late delivering on his promises. The Quadricycle took longer than he thought to build (okay, he did not really "promise" it to anyone else). Being of a scientific mind, the more he learned, the better he could build it. The better he could build it, the more he wanted to build it better. That was why it took nearly two years to build the Quadricycle, and why it grew large enough that he wound up knocking out the doorway to get it out of his small shop.
That was why his backers tired of him in his earlier companies as he kept improving his designs, and delaying production.
And that is why he was advertising his "new 20hp" models, and the model T, a full year before it was in full production.
But that is marketing (I hate marketing, at least what it has become). Is what Henry did so different from what many companies do today? They put out teasers and make statements about the "new" i-what or super duper high performance gas saver. Che####et did something similar with the Corvette in 1983.
That is also how Henry advanced automobile design faster that anyone would have believed possible.
And we do believe there were prototypes. There are first-person accounts of the secret design department. (Or are we not allowed to believe those?)
If I recall correctly, a few years ago, there was a thread on this forum about this very subject. My computer skills are somewhat limited and I doubt that I can find it. I will make an effort, but there are many here better than I that may be able to find it faster. If I recall correctly, there was a lot of discussion about the Piquette plant and what was going on inside. I think there was a photo showing a test car being driven with speculation about it being an early model T prototype (I don't think that was resolved). I think there was also a discussion and maybe a photo of the single detachable head engine. I am fairly sure this was before Rob got his K. Maybe all that could help someone find it. But my memory is not as good as I used to think it was.
Thank you, Rob. I am still enjoying your quest!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Indeed Ford had prototypes which we have discussed on this forum several times over the past many years, and of course the advertisement that Rob began this thread with was discussed 5 years ago by several of us on this forum, as well as being written about in the Vintage Ford and other antique car enthusiast magazines over years past.
The pictures in the ad captioned "Model T" are clearly lifted from the British Thornton Schreiber and Perry catalogue of 1907. They are not images of a prototype Model T. They are images of a pair of NRS derived vehicles which anyone in England could purchase in 1907. Ford vehicles in Britain were not labeled Model N, R or S, and the cars don't readily fit in those models. They are British Fords.
The Denver advertisement is a "teaser", meant to generate interest. It was an effective advertisement no doubt. Perhaps Rob will post it again five years from now so we can have the same discussion again.
I think the head lines say it all 'FORD'S LATEST' so, the poms get the message that the new model is a T, that can only be done the quickest way at the time, I'm sure it wouldn't be by email with an photo, so use the printing plates you have of Fords to catch the public's attention, as Royce put it, a "teaser"
I agree that the 1907 image, labeled as a "Model T" is not a prototype. It's not even a photo. It is evidence that a new model was being planned, that it would called Model T and at that early stage, none as yet knew what the final design would be, hence the likeness to a Model S Touring, which was the only platform familiar to Ford at the time and so, the only image available to use. If we give credence to THAT car being a Model T, then we must also agree that the Landaulet image is definitely a Model W, which we know it is not.
I'm curious, in the Model T Times, with the "touring" on the cover, does the magazine refer to it as a "T" or an "S"?
I think the point is being missed. This is the first instance I've seen the upcoming model, referred to as "light touring" in many publicatioins and stories, is actually designated "Model T" at this point.
On an entirely different note, seveal accounts say these "light tourings" and landaulet cars are on hand at shoow. Also, we have audit information of a Laundaulet and "Rumble Seat" being sold in October, 1907. I wonder what those two cars were?
The car on the cover is a Model S touring. I believe it was owned by Cecil Church.
: ^ )
Yes, it was the late Mr. Church's car (as was our Model K). There is also a great article that was inside the edition, describing his research building the car. Mi wonder where it is now?
Cecil Church's former car is a typical English 1907 Double Phaeton. The car was never referred to as a Model S in British literature that year. I realize that in the VF article it is called a Model S erroneously.