Timing 180 off: What to do?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Timing 180 off: What to do?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 02:31 pm:

I expected my rebuilt engine to start right up, but it's not happening. Not even a cough. Here's the situation.

1 #1 is at TDC. Crank pin horizontal, piston up, both valves closed.

2 Fire is on #4.

3 One-hole camshaft, so the only way the timer brush will fit is firing on #4 with #1 at TDC.

I'm thinking the easiest fix would be to drill the camshaft hole all the way through and rotate the brush 180. Is there any reason not to do that? Is there a better fix?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 02:45 pm:

An easy fix would be to change the order of the spark plug wires, or change the order of the timer wires. If you change the order of the wires down on the timer where they can not be seen, nobody will ever know without a close inspection.

How did this happen? Are these new parts, or are they your old parts -cam, brush, etc? Are you sure that your wires are in the correct order now?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 02:47 pm:

How about making a new notch in the brush? Way easier than drilling the cam.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 02:50 pm:

Steve,

1- There are drilled thru's out there...one screwed me up the other way for about 2 hours scratching my head when I changed the timer to an Anderson for them :-)

2- You could always move wire 1 to 4...2 to 3...4 to 1...and 3 to 2. Either at the timer or the firewall. Same result. Just write a note to yourself or mark it so you know what you did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 02:51 pm:

I type slow :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 03:19 pm:

I've been wracking my alleged brain trying to remember what's changed. The timing gears were replaced, but I can't recall whether it's a different cam or not. It probably is. I think a 1915 cam would have the hole all the way through. It's the same timer that was on the car.

I like the idea of adding a new notch to the brush. I'll give that a try.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 04:23 pm:

Steve -- Are your plug wires on right? Cylinder #1 terminal is on the passenger's side of the coil box, not the driver's. I know it's possible to put them on backwards. Never mind how I know....... :-)

eng


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Meixner on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 04:40 pm:

I would think you possibly wired the timer wrong.Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 04:52 pm:

If you're using a purchased wiring harness from the timer to the coils, it would be difficult to stretch some of the wires to reverse the order. On the other hand, it probably wouldn't be all that hard to reverse them at the timer. And, as previously noted, it wouldn't show.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Meixner on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 05:03 pm:

Or could it be a completely plugged exhaust system,ie- mouse nest.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 05:28 pm:

Steve,
How do you know that it is not supposed to be firing on #4?
From your first message:

1 #1 and #4 are at TDC. Crank pin horizontal, piston up, both valves closed on both #1 & #4.

2 Fire is on #4.

This is normal half the time.

Under the same conditions if you check to see if #1 or #4 has both valves closed when coming up to TDC (compression stroke)you will know what one is supposed to be firing.

The hole on the cam is likely not problem and if you change the hole you will have to reposition the wires on the timer. This would be the case if the cam was installer 180 out.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 05:28 pm:

I guess I'm missing something in the advice so far. I don't think it is difficult to remove the cover and check the timing marks on the gear. If in fact it is 180 out, I would think that you would want to rotate the gears (timing and cam) to the correct position and be done with it. While your at it this might be a good time to see if you need the new type of thrust washer on the timing gear to reduce the noise level. Dick C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 05:49 pm:

Crank the engine one full turn and then check again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 05:51 pm:

All the early cams had the hole right through, it was easy to be 180 out, if you want the wiring to look correct, drill through and rotate the roller.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By oscar was on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 06:10 pm:

If timing marks are aligned, cam does not care which way gear is installed. problem else where. o.g.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 06:14 pm:

Use your head and not your drill to solve this phenomena. I don't think its a problem,you just have some wires to move.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 06:37 pm:

I can believe a camshaft might have had the hole drilled 180 out, but you cannot have a cam gear 180 out. Essentially, the cam gear is 180 out every other revolution of the crank. Whether the timer was wired wrong or the cam hole was drilled wrong, the quick fix is to move the wires on the timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 06:40 pm:

Steve-
I think the problem is tour timer roller or flapper is 180 degrees off.

The hole for the pin on your timer goes all the way through the cam shaft. Pull your timer off, take the roller or flapper off, turn it 180 degrees. Try to start the car.

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 06:40 pm:

Wait a minute......Wasn't it you (Steve), that had that funky timer roller with the slot 180 out? That's not the timer you're using, is it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 06:45 pm:

Yes not thinking right, early morning for me, the 180 out can only happen when you have the hole through, it's just a wire issue, rotate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 07:30 pm:

I think Steve is funning us here... He knows to put a compression gauge on #1 to make sure it's really on its compression stroke when #4 fires. Then he would re-wire his timer to prove his suspicion, and never give the matter another thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 09:34 pm:

I can't believe that Steve could have it happen to him, OH wait he is the one that posted "what was I thinking" and now " what to do " HMMMMMMMM! You've really joined the club now Steve.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 10:11 pm:

Had to go to town to pay bills and buy groceries. I'll deal with this tomorrow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ex trooper on Thursday, September 26, 2013 - 10:18 pm:

#4 fires the next one up on compression is #3. #1 is on the way down on intake.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 11:35 am:

Timer brush??? Timer brushes for new day, best, & turner timers are slightly different but look similar. Between the New Day/Best timers and the two models of Turner timers, the brushes do look about the same but have the notches in different spots which will effect the timing...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 11:36 am:

Steve, the suspense is killing us, what turned out to be the problem and how did you fix it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 01:33 pm:

How I fixed it: Improved ATTENTION. This morning I looked at everything more carefully, and found that while the timing gears are new, the camshaft isn't. I was mistaken. The hole goes all the way through! I put a thumb over the #1 spark plug hole, pulled to the compression stroke, set the crank pin horizontal for TDC, and installed the brush turned to #1 on the timer. The timing is set and I've started the engine a couple of times.

Getting it started took a lot of choking and pulling, and it's running a bit rough and coughing out of the air intake, but I suspect that's a fuel issue, not timing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 01:58 pm:

Glad you figured it out, if it's popping back through the intake that sounds like it's running lean.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 06:53 pm:

Steve-
You can probably guess how I knew...

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 06:54 pm:

Glad you got it figured out.


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